My father in law gave me an old trainer that he had framed up. Basically, it needs covering and maybe some beefing up here and there. It has been sitting in a box for quite awhile. 58 inch span, around 3.5 pounds or so when completed. Top wing mounted, it has
about 10 degree or less dihedral. From what I can see, the controls are just throttle, rudder and elevator. For .15 to .25 engines.
Name of trainer is MEN Trainer. The MEN stands for "Model Engineering of Norwalk. Anybody ever hear of this company?
It also lists the AMA office in Washington DC. I am assuming that this company has been defunct a long time ago. There is no plans. Just an instruction booklet. In the instruction booklet they list the rx to use as being 3 channel. Only thing that concerns me is the oldness of the wood. Fuse I think would be okay but the wing.....its glued using Elmer's Carpenter glue. I'm hoping the wing would hold up. Thinking of using between .25 and .40 for engine.

Dave...

I might be wrong, but elmers carpenter glue is the same thing as wood glue. And Long as it is not joined with that, i think it would be fine. CA and Epoxy joints are stronger than the wood, so they tend to break wood. Where as wood glue joints i think are about the same. Again, I might be completely wrong here so someone correct me if i am. It just seems like i have heard this on here.

LuckyArmpit,
There is absolutely no reason you can't use wood glue (Elmer's Carpenter's Glue or Titebond II). Chad is wrong with his answer, the wood glue is stronger than the wood it bonds with. The only advantage that CA has over wood glue is that it let's you build quicker. Even this advantage can actually be a problem because you have only one chance to get the joint correct, once you hit it with thin CA it is done whether it's right or wrong. With using wood glue you have the ability to place the part and make sure that it's in the correct position before the glue sets.

As with all glues, the key point is the fit of the parts and not the glue itself. There is no substitute for having good tight wood to wood contact where the parts join before you glue them. Some think that since the glue says "gap filling" that they can use that if the parts don't fit correctly. While this can be done, it makes for a weak joint. But if you have a good joint then the wood glue will be stronger than the surrounding wood.

Another disadvantage of CA is that it is very hard to sand. When you join parts you have to be careful when you are doing your final sanding because the surrounding wood will be sanded away faster than the CA joint itself.

CA is a chemical that causes a reaction in everybody's body, some just have a more severe reaction than other. The reaction can be mild with a minor discomfort when inhaling the fumes, but can be severe enough to cause breathing problems for days after inhaling the fumes. If you use any kind of CA you need to have good ventilation of your work area and avoid breathing in the fumes.

I have been building for 8 years now and I switched from using CA to using Elmer's about 2 years ago. The last 5 planes that I built were done with Elmer's and I feel that they are built stronger and built better because of the wood glue. The build is also a lot cleaner and better looking than if done with CA.

Ok, let me boil it all down for you. You can use either CA or Elmer's glue to build with, but there is no reason why you shouldn't build with Elmer's. There are disadvantages for using CA which I listed above. The biggest disadvantage to using wood glue is the time it takes to set, about 30 minutes. But if you plan ahead you can keep the building moving along and the 30 minute set time won't slow you down too much. You should be fine using either glue that want to. But you don't have to worry about anything if it was built with Elmer's. It's going to be very strong if built with Elmer's

For the strongest joints epoxy should be used, but you don't want to use too much epoxy because it is very heavy. Some people think that they can use epoxy on all joints because they think it's stronger that way, but all they are doing is making the plane too heavy. Epoxy should be used sparingly. Most instruction books will tell you where to use epoxy during the build. A good rule of thumb (but not a complete list by all means) would be to use epoxy for attaching the firewall, joining wing halves, attaching horizontal and vertical stabilizers, attaching wing bolt blocks, landing gear mounts, etc....

Hope this helps.

Ken

I think Chad may be thinking of Ambroid glue. That glue does crystallize with age an becomes brittle and the joint breaks. There is nothing wrong with elmer's glue.

Dave...I'm always interested in seeing those old trainers and I've never heard of the kit you have. If you decide to continue with the project, please keep us up to date and don't forget the pics! We love pics. I learned on a Goldberg Falcon 56 that my dad built in 1973. This sounds a lot like the Falcon, it would be nice to see the similarities. We don't see many 3 channel kit trainers anymore.

Thanks,
Damon

I'm gonna try to take the high road here and assume that when Chad said "And Long as it is not joined with that, i think it would be fine." he was referring to joining the 2 wing halves. In that case he would be correct to use epoxy over CA or wood glue in many cases. Much depends on the model.

Gents, thank you for your inputs. I do have Titebond II which is a wood glue. Also have CA and Epoxy (6 and 30 minute).
The plane like I said before is already framed up. But, some of the areas on the wing have come un-glued. I do have to fix quite a
few spots. Another thing I plan on doing is the center section of the wing where the halves meet is to re-inforce the joint by soaking some fiberglas cloth in with thinned 30 minute epoxy and applying. For sure I'm gonna do the underneath but most likely also do the top. I've seen too many horrors in the air (wing halves coming apart) that could have been prevented by adding some glassing to the main root section. Also gonna add some blocks as I don't really like the landing gear that came with it. I can probably get either fiberblas or aluminum mains but I want to add the blocks inside fuse for the added security. Believe it or not, the plane is
a taildragger. While I have other taildraggers in the fleet, I just may make this one trike gear.
Funny in that this plane is just a 3 channel. I have a couple of electric planes that only use rudder and elevator but no glow ones.
Hell, I'm gonna grab my digital camera and take a few pics so y'all can see what the "sam hill" is going on! LOL!!!!


Dave...

Lucky: --- You may want to think twice about putting a 40 on that plane. Remember it called for a 25 on the high side and that was back in the 70's. Say what you may but the 25's today ARE better engines and may be plenty of power especially for an older plane. Another thought might be a 32 but even that might be more then needed.
As far as the wing is concerned, I'd suggest glassing it all the way around, not much gain if you only do one side.
I do remember the MEN and have flown one or two but so long ago that I don't recall much about them, seemed like they flew OK for what they were. ENJOY !!!! and Good Luck. RED

Don't put an OS 32 SX on that plane! They are expensive and it puts out the same power as an 40FX! I have both engines and a tach so I know what I am talking about. If you want to use a 40, an OS 40LA would be ok because its a rather weak engine and won't over power your plane. They are also cheap and relaible. [8D]

Dave,

I adamently agree with Ken!! I have been building since 1980 and mostly
during that time I have used Titebond II or something like it. Only recently
(well the last 10 years) have I used CA on occasion, when I really had to
get something done quickly or during a repair. Carpenter's glue is, in my opinion,
very much stronger than CA and will sand a lot easier. If you are talking about
wing joints or motor mounts, then you are talking about 30 minute epoxy.
I like to build with Titebond because it gives you time to work the fit and will also
"fillet" some areas for additional strength.

Cheers,
Andy

wouldnt you want a smaller motor making the same hp as the larger one?? You have to think about weight on the airframe to ..... the 40 will overbalance it more than th 32 or the 25 will. ive had bad luck with drasticaly overpowered plane, so im not a huge fna of cramming overtly big motors on them....

Engine information: No matter what engine is installed throttle management is the important factor. Having a little extra power can be a good thing. I like the idea of the smaller/lighter engine producing good power. Many beginners use the throttle as an On/Off switch. Many crashes happen on take off when the plane is yanked off the ground before it has flying speed. A little extra power can help in this case. Once flying and at a reasonable altitude reducing throttle will actually make a trainer fly better. If a loop is flown reducing the throttle to near idle after going over the top will keep the G forces down and may keep the wing from folding. Throttle should be applied smoothly to keep from loading the engine and possibly stopping it. (We are talking beginners here ~ a much different story if flying 3D etc. however many beginners are flying new engines that aren't broken in and haven't been adjusted well for instant throttle response).

Glue:
Titebond (original)(Franklin) is stronger and easier to use than Titebond II or III and is also a stronger glue than Carpenters' wood glue (Borden). Only use the waterproof versions if you are building a float plane or exterior object. The shelf life of original Titebond is several times as long as the II or III versions plus clean up is easier.

CA glue is a wonderful item but requires very good joints to make it work properly. I have seen many a crash (bad landing, etc.) where CA joints failed (shattered) and the Titebond ones held. In any case learn to make good joints before applying any adhesive. Many have very bad reactions to CA glues. I use them but only in specific areas such as in Warren truss sitck construction where the ends are sealed with thin CA and then re-checked (due to the wood expanding) and then the joint made with medium CA. {If you don't seal the ends first the glue will capillary into the end grain "starving" the joint and a failure may result}. I use a 20 box fan in the shop to dissipate the fumes. CA fumes are heavy so will sink onto the bench below the parts concentrating the effect so keep the air moving. In this case CA may be used to re-attach sheeting to ribs by adding pin holes though the sheeting and applying thin CA.

Epoxy: I don't use much epoxy. Only for pinned hinges and the like. It makes a mess, adds a lot of weight and reallly doesn't do a good job of gluing end grain. This is probably the reason we see puddles of it in many firewall areas. If you need more strength in these areas use 1/8" dowels, bamboo skewers or toothpicks to lock these joints into place.

I haven't found CA makes building any faster. Many state it takes Titebond too long to dry. It gains over 50% strength in about 15 minutes and fully cures in about 24 hours. When you crack the rib (or other balsa part) by all means use CA. It also is much easier to sand and can be removed with only water. The cost difference is enormous. $5.00 or so for a small bottle of CA or under $20.00 for a gallon of Titebond.

EXCAP232