Hello Forum,

I know this has been asked a zillion times, but I wanted to get some input and recommendations on my specific requirements.

First of all I hate how my trainer (tower trainer) flies. I hate the roll coupling, I hate the adverse yaw, and I hate how slow it needs to be to get it to land. Even though I am using aileron differential, the adverse yaw is still bad enough that I need a bit of rudder to make turns look right, but because of the roll coupling I have found myself using opposite aileron in many of my turns. Also, because of the small field I fly at and the very slow stall speeds, I pretty much had to get used to side slipping on each landing. Perhaps I'm being picky, but I'm looking for something that flies nicer.

Now I don't have a ton of money to throw at it right now (I'll have more next summer) so I was thinking about getting a 4* 40 and putting my 46fx and radio gear in it. That would be pretty cheap and it gets me into a better plane that can be upgraded to a 4 stroke later, but every time I read about the 4* people comment on how it flies like a trainer which is exactly what I don't want.

I think I want to stick with the 40 size for portability and cost reasons, so does anyone have a suggestion of an enjoyable plane that doesn't have a lot of adverse yaw, roll coupling, that lands a little faster than a trainer? Or should I build a 40* with one less wing rib?

schu

I'd personally recommend the 4 star. I have the 60 size and like it a lot. It was my first glow plane coming over from electrics. It's not trainer by any means, but still a bit forgiving for those moments when mistakes happen. The line of 4 stars are aerobatic, relatively fast and have nice landing characteristics. I'd recommend one. Good luck,

If you hate slow landing planes, then you don't want a 4*!!! You have to slow them down more than most trainers to get them to come down. Other choices in this case are the Super Sportster, Tiger 2, or the Midstar. These planes will land a bit faster than your trainer. These planes also give you the option of tail dragger or trike gear. [8D]

I vote on the tigere 2 beautiful flying plane I love it

Without doubt the absoulte ultimate "2nd airplane" should be the Midwest AEROBAT.
ARF construction from FALCON Engineering,(via Midwest) makes this an import, true but what an import! Quality through and through...AND
it won't break your bank. I've bought 2 of them, (one for me and my Dad) at $105. each and they arrive triple boxed.

Here's my review,(and others) from this very website:

http://www.rcuniverse.com/product_gu...fm?kit_id=2569

I have an SK .50 on mine,(Kangke.com) and my Dad has a Magnum .52FS on his. Mine flies like a rocket at full bore but slows down to 3-point landings like a trainer but without all that float and bounce. Dad's flies slower with the 4-stroke but stilll does nice vertical rolls and basic aerobatics.

I flew a Hobbico Superstar for 4 months getting my skills down and was hesitant about moving up to an aerobatic model. I needn't have worried! The AEROBAT is actually EASIER to land than the Superstar!

Next is a low wing and after that? The sky's IS the limit!

HTH's

Point Magu
Cumberland, MD

(home of the Mexico Farms R/C Flyers)

Akschu - Personally, I love an airplane that lands slow (That's one reason I put flaps on my Twist). As a beginning pilot, slow landing speeds will only make you a better pilot. You said that you are flying a a small field. It sounds to me like a slow landing speed is an asset. The hotter then landing speeds, the more airspace you'll need to set up on your approach. As a second plane, there are many - I recommend the Aerobat, 4-Stars, Ugly Stiks, the Tiger 2, and maybe the Sig Astro-Hog. Many beginners are ready to upgrade to faster planes with better aerobatic performance and thinking that their skills are up to par, but really just need to upgrade to a plane that will allow them to expand their experiance levels. I recommend upgrading slowly and let the learning curve mature. Having an insturctor to help you out is never a bad idea either. Just my .02.

i agree, if u dont like slow landngs, this plane can come in pretty quik, it does pretty good aerobatics 2

Tiger 2

That doesn't make sense to me, right now I have to give my trainer a ton of room to let it slow down, and then when I decend on my final it wants to speed up again. I also get lots of bouncing and floating.

I asked about this and was told that side slipping was the best way to slow it down enough to quit flying. So now on my final I sideslip it which causes it to loose speed fast.

I can fly it this way, so I'm not trying to get another plane to displace some lacking skill, more like I just don't like how it flies and want something more enjoyable.

The tiger 2 looks pretty good. I can fly it until I am used to it, then convert it to a tail dragger.

Thanks,

schu

I would definitely recommend the four star 40. I have one with a .46 ax and it has unlimited vertical,
and is more than aerobatic enough. I don't experience it taking forever to slowdown on landing, it may take a little more runway than a bi-plane, but it is no problem to land. Thats just my 2 cents.

Now I'm beginning to understand what you are saying - how much throttle are you coming in with (downwind, base leg, and final)? It also seems that you might have your idle up to high if it is speeding up on final. As for the bouncing, that might be becuase of the music wire landing gear (if so equipped). You might want to consider making the plane a taildragger with a little more rigid landing gear. You could also consider adding flaps if your radio will allow it (usually a 6 channel computer radio). That would slow the initial speed and would be a big help in slowing the plane on landing. Most trainers I know of slow down very nicely when landing , but I have the engine just ticking over when the plane is at idle. You could also try and 11X6 or maybe even an 11X& on the .46. It might help also slow you down a little. I'm also wondering if you have a warp in the wing.

I'd say the Tiger 2 also.

Or just put a pound of lead at your CG, that'll bring it down.

My choice would be the Tiger which is available in 40 or 60 size.

I did have the throttle high because I couldn't get the idle needle lean enough, but then I figured out that I can screw in the throttle stop a little which lets me turn in the idle needle in just a little bit more while still allowing the carb to close enough to kill the engine. While I had the high idle problem I basically had to learn to side slip, now that I have that issue resolved the thing goes soooo sloooow on aproch that it feels very odd to fly. In fact the first time I got a really slow final I as supprised at how mushy my controls where.

As far as bounce goes, I'm not talking about landing bounce, I'm talking about bouncing around on the final. Isn't that called ground effect or something?

Sorry about the confusion, I have had both slow and fast landings, and in both cases would prefer a faster stall speed, because the fast landings pretty much required side slipping, and the slow landings just feel really odd after learning to sideslip on fast approaches.

schu

sounds to me like your cg is a little rearward, this can cause floating(which in turn causes screwup in a smooth landing) check your cg and maybe move it a little forward and retry!! a forward cg wont cause a big change in handling but will smooth out the floaty feeling especially when your low on fuel

I think the "Stick" type planes are good second planes.
Great Planes Big Stick
Hanger 9 Ultra Stick
Goldberg Wild Stick
46FX would be a good engine for any of these planes.

akschu... I'm new to RC but i do know a little about planes and what goes on with them and whatever... some people put flaps on their planes so they can land slower but you need time to slow down. If you want to land faster than you can even without flaps, think about spoilers. Now, i'd like to repeat that i'm new to RC, but im sure there is some kind of spoilers out there so you can lose lift on your plane (so you can land) without sacrificing speed. I'm pretty sure that spoilers will slow down your plane some, but it wont be as much as flaps will and you could just throttle up a little so you still have speed.

If thats too complicated (dont worry, i probly confused myself too ) just buy a plane with less wing area ... which equals less lift, so faster speeds!! or take an inch or so off the 4* 's wings.

I'd like an expert to verify all of the above to say it's ok, i dont have much experience in this stuff.

I'm new to RC but I have a degree in aviation so I do my best...
I do agree that the Tiger 2 would be a good flier but I would get someone at the field to help you with some finness on your landings. I've seen a lot of people teach themselves and pick up some bad habbits. This is what a good landing looks like: http://www.whitetyphoon.com/rc/tf_p4...es/landing.wmv Your approach will not be as steep but the technique is the same.
I do agree with checking your CG.
On landing you should be about 1/4 throttle or about 3000 RPM and about 1 foot and a half from the ground pull your engine to idle and shortly after begin your flare. If you do it right you can come in with a higher speed and it won't bounce. Look at your plane while it is setting level though because some planes are higher in the front so the line drawn from the front to the back of the wing tips should be just slightly higher in the front. If it takes off by itself really quick but still flies level with out trim adjustments I would say the angle of attack is too high (or the front edge of the wing is too high). I've seen this several times at our field and it makes for some goofy take offs and each landing has multiple bounces.
How about some pictures?

akschu:

What you describe seems to be caused by 2 things:

1) Flat bottom airfoil
2) Rearward CG

There's not much you can do to get rid of the 1st unless you change your wings or airplane, about the CG you can have it a little nose heavy, it should land faster and stop "ballooning" so much.

If you want fast, side slide landings I recommend a World Models T-34 Mentor, I have it a little heavy and it lands hot!

I'll see if i can upload a video somewhere so you can see how it performs, maybe you'll like it and for it's price you can't go wrong!

Cheers
Joseph

Rangerman,

Nice flap deployment. I didn;t see that described in your text, however. I'm no aviation expert but I do believe that their use may have some bearing on hot landings and shorter approaches....

:-)

Point Magu
Cumberland, MD

(home of the Mexico Farms R/C Flyers)

Yes flaps do slow you down but just make a lower glide slope and you can still do the same thing.
I wonder if adding some weight on the CG would help?
Richard does an excellent job in this photo. Aim for about 4' from the end of the runway (where the numbers would be at this scale), power down, and flare and it's beautiful!

When I had my high idle issue, that throttle setting would just keep flying, it would need to be completely idle or any bounce what so ever will send it airborne again. Now that I have the idle fixed, it lands soooo sloooow. It's not that I can't do it, I just don't want to buy another plane with a characteristic that I don't like.

It is possible that I have a bad habit, I wouldn't know since I am 100% self taught. I'll try and get some video of my landings for the forum to look over, in the mean time I will play with my cg a little more even though it is a bit forward already.

In the end faster landings would be nice, but I have 90 flights on my trainer so I can get it back on the ground, the things I really want to address are the roll coupling and adverse yaw. I have been thinking about a fun fly profile too. I have several videos of the twist and it looks like a very predictable plane. I'm not trying to skip the second plane per se, I just don't want another slow flying trainer with bunch of "features" that I find myself trying to work around.

Edited to address the high idle as a past issue since it has been resolved.

It doesn't do this, I can gain as much speed as I want and it doesn't lift off until I up elevator, which is kinda fun since I like to gain a ton of speed off the deck and do a straight vertical takeoff then roll it over to inverted flight.

My bud that is a pilot gets a real kick out of it because my trainer can so so much more than it's full scale counterpart.

jupiter,

there is nothing in the aerobatic schedule that it cannot do,&more beside, yet low on the throttle its a *****cat to troll around slowly.looks good to

i dont no y they blocked that out o was not swering ore any thing all i was saying was pusseycat (take out the e so u can read it so it wont be blocked)