I had a little incident this weekend that caused me to get a little ‘Hot’ under the collar. While I was flying the SuperStik for a second time, this guy and his 4-5yr. old son were ‘playing’ with their trainer on the cross-wind runway. He was taxiing the trainer around with son on a buddy box, now I don’t know who was actually controlling it but it was starting to make me a little nervous. They had started doing this after I was already in the air; otherwise I wouldn’t have gone up. Anyhow, while I was flying, I had to keep an eye on these two as their plane was going all over the place from the runway to the grass in-field and I didn’t want it coming at me. They were ‘driving’ the plane around like it was an R/C car. Well, when it came time for me to land, I tried the main (long) runway but there was a pretty good cross-wind moving across it and since I’m still a rookie, I went to use the alternate (short) runway. Well, I called out that I was trying to land and that I needed that runway. After a few minutes the guy looked up and said ‘Oh…” and then finally moved his plane off the runway. So with his plane about ten feet from me and he and his kid standing just barely off the runway. I made my first pass and was too fats so I brought it around for a second shot. Unfortunately, my 10 minute flight timer had gone off while he was still ‘dinking’ around so I didn’t know how much fuel I had left. So on the second shot, I brought it in and as soon as the wheels touched the ground I cut the engine at which point it roll on down the runway. Because this is the short runway, it rolled on past the end of the paved runway through the short buffer grass and finally into the taller grass until it stopped. While it appeared that the plane was OK, I had just fixed this one on Saturday and I was hoping that it was fine otherwise I might have gotten really upset. Maybe, I’m overreacting about the situation but if you’re going to dink around on the runway, you might let someone know ahead of time. Because, had I known that he was going to do that I wouldn’t have gone up in the first place. The way I see the situation is that when I first went up with my trainer, I gave everyone a heads-up so they new I was a newbie and if they didn’t want to go up fine and if they did go up they at least had some warning ahead of time. I was just irritated by the whole situation and I need to know if I was right or wrong in requesting the runway.

Thanks,

Mark

I don't think you were wrong asking for the runway. Even if it was legitimate taxi practice, a plane needing to land should have priority.

Graham

Yeah you can ask for the runway if you need it. Planes who have an emergency have the right of way, and planes who are in the air have a right to the runway if there is reason they need to land. The people driving around on the runway shouldn't have been doing that while someone was flying anyway, just wait til their done.

cheers

I'm assuming that after you landed... (and yes, the landing plane should have right of way... at least in my book) you took the time to politely chat with the father and son to insure that there is a proper level of education regarding communication with other pilots....
but really....IMVERYHO... they weren't doing anything wrong... you asked for the runway...they gave it....

unless I am missing something

I agree with Exeter, yes you did have a right to the runway but what the father and son where doing was also ok so no need to be upset.

It would have been nice and smarter on their part to have gotten further back from the runway edge so you could concentrate on the landing and not them. They were in the wrong but just barely. A call out of "beginner pilot landing on runway xxxxxx" may have gotten their attention (or not). If you were scared, pass it on to them - scare them too but in a safe way. Don't take a low pass at their heads or anything like that.

I would be upset. I don't know how lax they are at other fields, but at our field NO ONE is allowed anywhere near the runway except to retrieve a stopped plane, and only then after announcing loudly. We have a low catch-fence about 30 ft. from the runway, and everyone stands behind it. If you don't have a similar set-up at your field, then common sense should apply. IMO, common sense would dictate that you don't practice taxiing on the runway when planes are in the air. I disagree that what the father and son were doing was okay.

As long as there is one plane in the air the runways are active. The plane(s) in the air always have the right of way. It was the wrong time to walk out and start practicing how to taxi, especially with a 4/5 year old child. No one knows what a 4/5 year child might do on impulse. I shudder to think of what could have happened. You were 100% right to announce you were landing and needed the runway. Had that happened at my field and a club officer was present the officer would have set him straight pronto. Everyone wants to have fun, but the safety factor comes first. Bring it up with your safety officer and get his response. Next time something like that happens, and the person doesn't move fast enough to suit you, say it again, nicely, only louder and with more authority. Afterward you can walk over and tell them you were really nervous with them there and just didn't want to hurt anyone. Who could find fault with that?

Lot's of "if's, and's and but's" here. Sounds like you have cross runways at your field, since you mentioned a crosswind runway. I think the SAFEST situation would be as those above have said, for Dad and Son to wait until noone was flying before they practiced taxiing and ground handling. However, if it had been only an adult out there, then I see nothing wrong with what he was doing, as long as he stayed clear of the runway in use, i.e., the one with favorable winds for takeoff and landing.

The one thing I see that both of you were doing that could have been improved on was for you both to have had a SPOTTER, someone who could focus attention on what was going on around you so that you could continue to focus on your plane and not worry about Junior running over your foot, as well as the other guy being able to focus on keeping Junior out of your way. One other person could have functioned for both of you, since only one was in the air. While it's not mandatory at our field except during sanctioned events, a spotter is worth his weight in glow fuel just for the peace of mind that you can fly and not try to watch more than one plane (yours). They can also be the communicator of your intentions to the others when you have your hands full and might not think to holler "DEADSTICK", or "OH, SH*T!", or "DUCK!!!"

I'm always nervous when young kids are on the field, or even in the pits, during flight ops. Not enough judgement or experience on their part to know what to do in most instances, and you never know just how short a leash Dad is running. It's bad enough for one of us strapping young adults or old farts (take your pick which one I am) to get hurt, but it puts more than a physical dent in the little ones, and a huge guilt trip on the person who was operating a plane that hurts a kid, regardless of whose fault it really was.

I had a worse experience last weekend.
My club's flying field has a nice engine start-up area which is about 60 feet away from the runway.
While I was flying in my pit, this one guy brought his plane to about 10 feet behind and working on his engine.
It was about 90 size pattern plane with big YS engine. He was going full throttle, holding the plane with one hand(airplane facing directly at my butt)
and playing with transmitter with the other hand. I got pretty nervous and I could hear anything except his engine.
His engine kept dying(I don't know why) but he kept during for my whole flight time(about 10 min).
I didn't say anything but gave him a dirty look. Well, I think he got my msg because I brought his plane
back to start-up area and work on it there.

We have two runways in an X pattern. A few years ago I'm just sitting there on one of the benches watching as one of or long time and better pilots is coming in on final. He's got it lined up real sweet and just about to cross the threshold when out of the corner of my eye I see someone else landing downwind. I figured the guy landing in the correct pattern knew what he was doing so I shouted at him THROTTLE UP AND GET THE H%&* OUT OF THERE! YOU'VE GOT ONE COMING IN FROM THE WRONG DIRECTION! Very calmly he replied "thank you" and went around again. LOL! When the other guy lands and was informed of his error he said "Oh, gee, did I do that again? Hahahahaha!"

As a safety officer I would have to discuss and find out more about this. Im not putting anyone down or scolding the original poster,,, this is how I would handle it at my club if it happened since I just happen to be a safety officer.

1. Planes in the air do have the right of way.
2. Typically, only 1 runway is supposed to be active at a time at most fields.

If I understand correctly this would have been my response.

1. AS long as the guy working with his son is a compotant pilot then I would not have a problem as long as he used good common sense and obviously didnt cross the active runway.
2. If you took off on a given runway, you have committed to flying that runway. If there is a crosswind, too bad. The other runway is inactive, land on the runway you took off from. Its not uncommon for helicopters and people doing things like practicing taxi'ing to use an inactive runway. The caviot is that the people on the inactive runway do not fly into the active runways flight path. Typically the people on the active runway are not supposed to fly behind the active flight line. This keeps both sides separated naturally.

If you get into a bind and need to land in a pinch. Sure, yell landing and IF someone tells you that the inactive runway is clear, use it!
But, if you arent 100% sure that its clear then aim for the main runway and land it in a safe place... It no different than the pits, parking lot or spectator area.. You never intentionally land anywhere if you arent 100% sure you can land there safely. As long as you have control of the plane, you are better of ditching the plane and tearing it up than you are attempting to land it somewhere that may or may not be 100% safe.

The only exception would be if your club rules state that the inactive runway is offlimits and when inactive can only be used for emergency landings. You cant have your cake and eat it too. The best thing you can do is learn to land in a crosswind if you are going to takeoff with any chance of a crosswind. Then the pont becomes moot.
3.

It sounds like a combination of him being a newbie and you being less of a newbie..think about it, he see's you flying (to him like a pro) and to you he's doing things all wrong, well, he's just jumpin to play with his new toy(remember that feeling?),,( a 5 year old on a buddy box is questionable though),,how many threads have your read about guys taking their trainer to the field for 10 years?..he's probably thinking a guy this good wont think twice about me taxiing around the runway...at the same time your thinking what the heck is this guy THINKING!?..did you offer to help get his plane in the air?..I would have gone over after landing and said "hey chief, you probably dont want to being playing on the runway when people are flying, its very distracting"..nice plane though, do you have an instructer?, maybe I can help.....Rog

IMO
All fields should have standard rules that everyone follows or they get in trouble. Like yelling when you get on the fiel, or are coming in for a landing. Stuff like that.
Our club doesn't do anything like that, and I think it's completely wrong. The people here just gas up there planes, take off without a word and land without saying anything inbetween times. It really bothers me.
I walk out to whoever is flying and ask if it's alright to go up before I start the engine.
I also yell at the top of my lunsg if I have an engine failure or when coming to land. Everyone else stays quite.
To hell with them. The rule is, you cause crash, you pay cash. If they don't announce anything that regulations dictate, they are at fault for the crash.

Gentlemen,
Unfortunately, I fly here in Colorado and we can have a strong cross-wind can pop up at any given moment. So pilots have the flexibility to use the alternate runway if they feel it necessary based on their piloting skill or comfort level. When I first started flying a few months ago, I was setting up to land on the main runway during a cross-wind, when one of the Officers came over and recommended that I use the alternate one due to the winds that came up while I was flying. This field sits in an unusual area in that there may be no wind when you take off and 5 minuets into your flight we have a 10 mph cross-wind hitting you in the face. Most veteran pilots have learned how to land in the cross-wind but they still recommend that we newbies use the alternate for safety and/or comfort.

[link=http://www.milehighwings.com/club/field_aerial.jpg]Boulder Field[/link]

This is an aerial shot of the field and the main runway is the longer of the two. This may show you guys what I was referring to by the two runways. As you can see, we are right next to a reservoir and we typically will get some wind from off the water but lately it has been coming from all directions. That's part of the charm of living in Colorado; give it 20 minutes and the weather will change is what we like say aroung here.

We do have much of the same rules that you guys mention like shouting out !QUOT!landing/takeoff, deadstick, etc.!QUOT! but I'm sure its like most clubs in that not everyone follows those rules. For example, about a month ago I was coming in for a landing on the main runway and I had shouted out that I was landing. My plane was on final and was about 75ft. from the edge of the runway when this fella taxi's his plane out on to he field and stands behind the the plane. I pulled up immediately when I saw this and told the guy that I was landing. My instructor happened to be standing next to me talking to his father beside me, when he saw what happened. He and some other pilots started yelling at this guy for not paying attention and nearly causing an accident. Now I had thought that I didn't yell out loud enough but was told afterwords that everyone at the far end of the field heard me call out. this guy just wasn't paying any attention to anything.
I still notice that several people just don't communicate well when they are taking off or landing and it is starting to frustrate me. Someone once told me that because the field is actually county property that we cannot prevent people from using the field, whether they are a club member or not. Apparently, the club maintains the field and has the keys to the gate but due to the fact that it is public land we cannot prevent someone from flying. This is Boulder, Colorado we are talking about (see: Hippie Central). This causes some people to not fly when certain people are up in the air because they feel that that person is a hazard to others. I just find it frustrating at times and I have voiced my concerns to others including several of the officers.
Jrotor, I feel you pain in that I had someone do that to me with a combat-wing and I couldn't hear a thing the whole time I was flying. I did comment to him afterwords that he needed to pay more attention on where he was pointing his plane. Unfortunately, with this last incident I just gave the guy a look and he seemed to get the message that I was upset. Roj, after reading your post I feel that you are probably right in that I didn't handle the situation as diplomatic as I should have. However, I had never seen this person out at the field before and he was talking with some of the veteran pilots at the clubhouse/shelter when I had headed out to fly. So hopefully they had helped him get situated but then that may have not been the case.

Thanks,

Mark

I've been flying for 25 years and all of the clubs I have belonged to have the same rule: A pilot that declares himself for landing has the right of way. The father/son should not have been on the field while a plane is in the air. They should have stayed at a designated pilot station to do their taxi practice. Once Mark declared his intentions they should have vacated the runway to a safe distance. I fly in Ohio and our winds change direction on us all the time, just because you takeoff on the east/west runway doesn't mean you are committed to land on that runway if the wind changes. That could create an unsafe condition if you force a person to land crosswind, especially a newbie like Mark. I think you should have nicely said something to them, they simply may not know the field etiquette (s) yet.

Thanks for all your input, I appreciate all of the comments and information.

Thanks,

Mark

Runways are for takeoffs and landings not for groundhandling exercises while there is a hot prop in the air. When you have a deadstick and have to cross the field when someone is still above you, you are still nervous when retrieving your plane, why? Because it is dangerous. If the taxiing plane stalls out, there is always a chance of something going wrong while it is being retrieved especially if you have an excited little one who is with you and is part of the operation. If you want to practice on the ground, have at it in your back yard, or street or drive way or vacant store parking lot or when no one is in the air, run it up and down on the runway, but when someone is ready to fly, give them 100% use of all the field. Take the wing off so you don't lift off if you are concerned with that. We all have done that at some point or another but leave all runways open to those in the air for whatever situations may arise. No other acivity should be taking place on the forward side of the pilots station when there is taking off, flying or landing in progress.
No one likes it when someone has to run out in front of you to get their powerless plane and you are flying your usual stuff, nor does the person like going out to get it either. This point can be argued several different ways I suppose because some club rules and regulations may or may not specify on this particular matter, but overall, the safety of members and spectators should be the first priority and the second should be the property of all those present and nearby.

Inactive runway is just Stupid. anyone practicing with a kid when someone else is flying is just Stupid....Guys who piss n moan about anyone else running a plane engine behind them when they're flying is just Stupid.....Anyone thinking they should have the "Air" all to themselves when there are others at the field there to fly is just Stupid. Safety always comes first but some just get stupid about it.

I wouldn't call people doing dumb things stupid. We've all done stupid things, and probably will do so again, that's human nature. The thing I've taken from this thread so far is that a father/son combo went out and started doing some taxi practice on the "off-duty" runway without telling the guy who was in the air what they were doing. I've found that the most important thing when others are flying is communication. Just walking up to a guy flying and asking in a calm, non distracting manor, "Hey, do you mind if I do .........." can solve a lot of these problems. When you do this, they guy flying knows what your doing, and if he agrees, accepts the risks (if any) that the situation presents. Also, you should never be on the runway durring flight ops for any extended period of time, either the active or off-duty runway. If you are going to enter this area you need to announce this so everyone knows you are there, and also let them know when you are clear.

I feel Dad and Son have the right to practice taxing. when you wanted the runway they should have given you more room. Left the runway as soon as possible.
Did you announce that you weren't comfortable with the cross wind? that you intended to land on their runway? perhaps they didn't hear you.
Best thing to do is to discuss this with your safety officer.
I don't think it's anything to get mad over.

Calling everyone and everything stupid just because you disagree with them is stupid. There are different rules for different airfields, and many times some of the people are ignorant of the rules. That doesn't make them stupid. Causing a distraction immediately behind a pilot with a plane in the air is just rude behavior, but I would think the proximity of the distraction to the pilot would have to be a factor in whether I'd consider it worthy of mention. If there was a guy behind me, holding his plane in his hand and revving the engine while it was pointed directly at me, I'd be a bit nervous as well. In that situation, if there was someone nearby I'd call them over and ask them to tell the person behind me to please move as he was making me nervous. If he didn't comply, then I'd have a very serious talk with the safety officer and let him handle it. If no one was close by, I'd land on the next pass and ask the guy to please move to a different area. Most of the people I've met in my limited time in this hobby are more than willing to help you if asked. By moving to a different area to test his engine, he would indeed be helping you.

Also, if you are in the air and the wind changes, you have every right to change the active runway to one more favorible for landing.

"2. If you took off on a given runway, you have committed to flying that runway. If there is a crosswind, too bad. The other runway is inactive, land on the runway you took off from."

This is just wrong in every way possible. Forcing someone to land in a crosswind condition that developed while in flight is unsafe at best, and could result in injury to bystanders as well as an expensive rebuild. Calling out your intended change of runway did get the father and son to yield the runway to you, even if they stood a bit too close. I'd only consider them in an unfavorable way if the club rules prohibited their use of an inactive runway while someone was flying on the active runway.

Of course, everything I said here is hindsight. It's easy to look at a situation and say "If that was me, I'd have....." No one knows exactly what they will do in a given situation until they are faced with that particular set of circumstances.

Then there will always be a few people who will push the edge of the envelope and bend the rules to the point of breaking, but never quite crossing the line. Those are the people the world revolves around and the rest of us should learn our place and let them do as they please. (just a tad of sarcasm here)

communication, it goes a long way. not just for everyones feelings but also for everyones safety

I don't understand how another pilot can forget about what the landing strip's purpose is. Landing.

There is an instructor at our field who was helping another pilot take-off and land a P51 PTS. Not sure why he did this since he's a trainer, but he walked out into the middle of the field while taxiing the plane, stood behind the plane and then took-off. I was of course in the air. I had been up for around 10 minutes and was ready to land when he walked onto the field. No problem, I had some time. I let him know I'm ready to land, "LANDING!". He just stands there with the two other people in the middle of the field. "LANDING!" Not only do I have to fly the plane, I have to take my eyes away from the plane to see if he is moving. "LANDING!!" He slowly walks backwards to one of the pilot stations and I'm able to land.

What if someone had gone "Dead-stick" and he's out there? He later crashed that poor guy's P51.

Not wanting to start a new post I figure that this one is very closely related to what I need to know.
A few weeks ago a local club had an electric fly-in. There were about 4 planes in the air, three of them were doing 3-D. This one fellow launches a really hot delta wing plane in the air and starts doing high speed low passes down the runway. The crowd was really enjoying this. One of the fellows that had been flying a 3-D biplane flies a landing pattern and is about to touch down when this delta comes screaming from the other direction and just misses it by inches. The guy flying the bipe retreives his plane and walks up to the guy who just landed his delta and tells him he almost hit his $1500 airplane.
My question, as a newby, is would I be liable for someone elses plane if I hit it and I was at fault. I can usually land a plane now without having to make repairs but I'm not always in perfect control. Just wondering if that person could sue me for damages. Would AMA step in with insurance and buy the plane?