A while back I heard something about a new transmitter that had incorporated an electronic release switch that gave back control to the instructor; simply by moving any control lever on the instructor's transmitter. Has anyone else heard of this? I guess this device would be akin to touching the brake to release cruise control on an automobile.

Although I don't use a buddy-box, I imagine those who do use the cord, would very much appreciate such a "quick release" device such as this.

Take care,
CCR
http://www.kites.org/rc_instructors

It does not sound exactly like what you are describing, but I have read that the Futaba 9Z allows the instructor to make corrections for the student without taking the aircraft completely back from the student.

If understand it correctly, the radio is mixing the control inputs from both the student and instructor at the same time. I do not have a 9Z so I have never tried it myself.

Krister

Many moons ago, someone had the idea of having a buddy-box system where the student's tx had servos installed that would move the control levers. The idea is to give tactile feedback via the buddy-cord to the student as the instructor demonstrates how to move the sticks.
This was called a "shadow box".

They assembled two types of shadow boxes. One was a mechanical contraption with rods and cables from an active tx to dummy box. The dummy box had all electronics removed and only the sticks and gimbles that remaind attached. Again for tactile feedback purposes only.

The other shadow box did not have a hard connection to the two tx's but did have a flight pack installed in the student's inactive tx. That why although the student didn't have control of the aircraft in flight, she or he could feel the correct stick movements as the instructor flew the aircraft. It was reportedly a resounding success for the purpose of training.

Take care,
CCR
http://www.kites.org/rc_instructors

Interesting! I like the concept as such. With all these joysticks, steering wheels, etc readily available for PC games that use "force feedback", I have been wondering whether we would see something like that built into a tx for training purposes. In a way, someone has already done that then.

I do not know what you think, but I believe tactile feedback should be a great help for a student who using a buddy box. I would love to be able to say "Just follow my stick movements, and you will see how to make the plane turn!"

Krister

Krister,
I've been using a teaching method that uses force feedback for 30 years now, but without the use of the buddy-box.
Thing is, there seems to be too many who swear by the buddy-box, therefore, for those who would rather fight then switch, the shadow box concept might appeal to them. Forced feedback works so well, that for example, one day, I alone, spent 6 hours giving something on the order of 100 more or less boyscouts a few minutes apiece of RC flying experience. When I used the buddy-box, I would not want to teach again after less than an hour of teaching.

So, with the use of a tactile feedback training system, any instructor might find it much more pleasant, rewarding and challenging giving instruction than flying his own plane. One could easily double of triple the numbers of members in his club each season. Talk about an excellent safety in numbers factor.

Take care,
CCR
http://www.kites.org/rc_instructors

So how do you do it? Any special hardware involved, or do you and the student simply hold the same stick on the same tx at the same time? I think I saw something like that somewhere on the Internet sometime ago. Looked interesting, but I have not had an opportunity to try it myself.

Krister

The student holds his thumb on TOP of the elevator/aileron stick and I have my thumb and forefinger UNDERNEATH the student's thumb. This way we can both feel what each other is doing.
It's so easy and safe to let anyone takeoff and land on their very first lesson using this method. Also, it's just as safe and easy to transition a second flight ever beginner to a much more advanced aircraft. So, when someone says that he wants to buy a scale type airplane, or brings one with him to the field, I can give him some sticktime on that plane. There are 3 hobby shops I'm helping sell trainers and scale kits and ARF's using this method.

Also, it is great for just giving people a test flight just so they can see how easy learning to fly anything can really be.

There is a bit more to it than just finger placement, like very informative communication.

Take care,
CCR
http://www.kites.org/rc_instructors

Thanks, I will give it a try as soon as the flying weather returns and I come across a suitable student to use as my guinea pig.

Yes, I can understand that the communication part matters too. I recently bought a book called "The Flying Instructor's Patter Manual". Written by two ex-RAF flight instructors and full of example dialog for teaching various maneuvers. A lot of it is not applicable in a model aviation setting, but it gave a few new ideas and insights.

Krister

Yep the teaching method used by fliers1 works great, He taught me how to fly last April using this method and I was able to pull of a few landings on my first lesson. Really helps teach not to "bang the sticks around" so to speak. When first learning I was surprised how little movement on the sticks was required to make the plane respond as desired, this method seems to allow the student to FEEL the proper stick movements, (at least it did for me).

Although I can't compare this method to the buddy box because I have never used one, I can say I had no need to, this method worked wonderful for me, I think it took me three maybe for lessons (including time spent TRYING to learn to hover a heli), before I was out flying on my own.

It's your fault I have an overwhelming desire to keep buying airplanes!!! (just kidding of course Clarence)

See ya around,
Pete

Interesting reading, thanks! It seems to me the method ought to work, so I am not surprised by your experience.

The only thing I feel a bit uncertain about, not having tested it myself yet, is the practical aspect of two persons holding the same stick at the same time. Doesn't it get a bit crowded at times, with three hands on the same TX?!

Is the instructor holding the TX with the student standing on his right, so that the student can reach the right hand stick? I guess the instructor would want to handle the throttle in the beginning, so I presume that is the way it is done.

I will see if I can talk my wife into some flight instruction in RealFlight G2 a little later. Then I could test the method on her. (I am sure she would really appreciate that! )

Krister

You can practice using this method on the sim and/or when flying your own plane alone, you can hold the tx over like your student was holding the tx. This way you can get used to the wierd angle that your fingers will be on the sticks. You can extend your sticks and practice flying with you thumb and forefinger right down to the bottom of the elevator/aileron stick (mode 2).

The first thing I tell my students is to do nothing and just watch the plane fly very smooth, straight and level very well on its own.
Then it's one movement at a time, like moving the stick over about an 1/8 of inch for a count of 3, and then back to center.
The trainer will bank and turn mostly on its own as in without another stick movement for perhaps a count of 8-10 seconds as it makes the turn.

I've noticed student's fingers dancing around like crazy and the instructor being completely unaware while being taught on the buddy-box. I can tell a recently graduated student by they way she or he can fly reasonably well, but their fingers are still mixing a batter. I guess they figured that they can get the plane up and down with gittery finger movement, this must be the way to fly.

Yep, practice using this method on a sim and you will find that you may only need to have your fingers assisting your students for no more than 5 minutes, tops.

Take care,
CCR
http://www.kites.org/rc_instructors

Just finished my first training session on the sim. The wife/student was busy putting our daughter to bed, so I had to fly by myself.

The angle of the fingers took some getting used to. I tried flying with the TX turned in various angles all the way up to 90 degrees, so that I was holding it sideways in front of me at one point.

When it was getting near 90 degrees, controlling the plane was confusing. As the elevator and ailerons had shifted place (at least my fingers thought so) I flew straight into the ground a couple of times when trying to recover from steep turns and spiral dives. At that point, one could have thought it was my first flight ever.

It was a good exercise. I will definitely do it again.

Krister

Like learning how to fly or anything else, it will take a bit of practice. Funny thing, I never thought of suggesting that people use a sim to practice this teaching method. Many times, people have told me that they tried it once and thought that the buddy-box was better.

I have had many of my students hand the tx to a friend and very efficiently and safely give flight training. BTW, this was a week after the new "instructor" had his first RC flying lesson ever.
The trick is, whether you use a buddy-box or not, is to strongly suggest that the student not move the sticks while the plane is in straight flight. Those who use the buddy-box, you could give your student a little ground school to show them just how little stick movement is necessary. Give them some "dry flying" instruction for a few minutes before the plane ever gets in the air.

To show how stable a trainer is, sometimes I will lay the tx on the ground while the trainer is in the air and not touch the tx for several seconds, then reach down and bank the plane over and let it make the turn all by itself. I am sure that too many instructors make learning look much harder than it really is.
When I hand my tx to anyone, even a 4 year old, there is very, very little risk to my plane. I just tell them not to do anything until I instruct them to. Move the aileron stick over for a count of 3 and then back to center...and then wait until the plane is headed in the proper direction and then the other way until I say "center".
Keep in mind skeptics, I've been safely doing this for over 30 years. BTW, I am always learning.

Take care,
CCR
http://www.kites.org/rc_instructors