I've been flying for 11 years and have been instructing new pilots for eight. The instruction usually consists of prepping and trimming the student's plane, explaining the controls and physics, then keeping it from crashing while they get used to the controls and orientation, essentially allowing them teaching themselves. Two of my students have soloed and one is our current club VP.
I now have a student who is 70's or so, a Korean War Vet, ex-jet fighter electronics tech, who started last April. He's been really passionate about acquiring the ability to fly. Having something to engage his mind at this age is a matter of life and death. But I'm afraid we are both getting a little frustrated. After ten flying sessions or so, he can only occasionally make a perfect lap around the field and cannot complete a whole flight without me pulling the plane out of a dive or bringing it back from the next county. At this point, I should be taking control only to land, if at all.
Am I doing something wrong? Is there a standardized approach to training new pilots. Is there a support group for instructors, or a forum for helping with the more challenging students? I believe it is vital to surrender my valuable flying time to grow the hobby, but I haven't used two gallons of my own fuel yet and it's almost winter. We instructors are the face of the hobby to new flyers. There must be a resource I'm not aware of.

I've been in a similar situation myself. So trust me when I say that it's not you, it's the student. There are two types of students that are harder to train, older people and full scale pilots. When you combine the two it makes for a person that is very hard to train. Remember that this guy has spent his whole life "feeling" what the plane is doing through the seat of his pants, now he has to rely on his eyes to see what the plane is doing. Here are a few things that I found to help me out. First, be very very very patient with him because it's going to take extra time to train him. Second, talk him through everything. Words like "stick left", "stick right", etc.... Notice I said the stick and not the plane. The reason is because when the plane is coming towards you the sticks will be reversed, so you need to tell him which way to move the stick. Eventually he'll pick it up and start doing it himself. The last thing I can recommend is to stand at the end of the runway and let the plane come over his shoulder when it's time to land. This will make him feel more comfortable in making the adjustments needed to land because it will be similar to landing full scale for him

Hope this helps

Ken

I have been through this as well.
What I did was reduce the controls of the plane so that slamming the sticks around would get very little response. RCKen is right. Most of these guys have been feeling there way around and have very little hand/eye coordination. If you can get a high end radio for him to use at the field then that is good. With the throws I set up, you had to yank full up to just get the plane off the ground and most landings were too hard because there wasn't enough elevator to flare, BUT they could keep it in the air because the controls we very insensitive.
Give it a try.

This guy sounds like he might benefit from a simulator.

Having only learned to fly R/C at age 73, I can tell you that the hand eye coordination is not as easy as someone younger. It took me more than 45 days (3-4 flights per day) over a time of 75 days to solo. Fortunately, my instructor was VERRY patient and only yelled at me a couple of times. Also, I have heard that full scale pilots are the hardest to "get out of the cockpit". Good luck and just don't give up on your student.

Hud

All of the advice above is excellent, to add a little hopefully here are my comments.


Do you use visual references to help with orientation? That is something that may help too since confusion when the plane is coming towards the student is usually the biggest challenge to overcome.

Here is a VR trick that I use that seems to help get the student straight on how to attain level flight when the plane is coming at him.
*When the plan is coming towards you or if the plane plane is turning back towards him to where he is looking at the tip of the spinner,,, and one wing is lower than the other, usually the mistake is made when the student tries to level the wings and gets disoriented. Tell the student when the plane is coming towards him always push the aileron stick towards the low wingtip to level the wings when the plane is coming at him. It works exactly the same if the plane is inverted. It makes it really simple to relate,,, if the plane is coming at you and the wingtip to your left is low, gently push the aileron stick to the left and the wings will level.

Anytime the plane is flying directly in front of from side to side, or directly away from him. Level the wings normally.

Another thing is make sure that the plane is very well trimmed for training flight speed. Trainers have a bigtime tendency to climb as they fly faster. A lot of times a trainer may be trimmed for a higher speed than the student actually needs to be flying and then when you slow the plane down to "training speed" it is going to constantly be wanting to sink. This causes the student to have to constantly compensate. Its a non issue for a more skilled pilot, but for a brand new student it can be a very difficult situation to manage. In the beginning, when the student levels out for forward flight and gets the wings level, they should be able to expect the plane to continue forward and not head for the ground.

They should alway make small control moves, specifically in a turn. A small amount of aileron, hold and input a breath of up elevator to keep the plane at the same altitude. Dont rush the plane around the turn,,, If its in a bank, and on a nice angle, it will come around so dont force it. As it turns level the wings, if its coming towards the student in the bank,,, push the aileron to the low wingtip and the wings will level, everytime.

Even in awkward situations, the control inputs are generally pretty subtle to regain control of the plane. You never need to pull all the way back on the stick. Tell him that if he is careful to enter a turn correctly, he has time to correct so make very small gentle moves and see what the plane does, if it does the opposite of what he expected, go the opposite way.

All of that being said... Some guys can solo in 5 sessions, some folks may take 100 just to be able to fly around in circles on a buddy box. I always try to prepare myself to spend 1,10,100, 1000 flights to get a guy to fly. It takes what it takes, you may even get so lucky as to have a student that needs your help on the buddy box forever.

One of my older students needed two things, took me a while to figure them out.

1. Creature comforts. He couldn't stand very long, would get fatigued & the plane would act nervous. A chair helped (actually, he prefers a stool.)

2. A regimen. I'd decide today we need to work on not letting the plane fly too far away, and I'd tell him so. Then, I'd be quick to say "Okay, we're a little late turning around, let's get'r done". Or I'd decide today we need to work on moving the approaching plane away from the flightline. I'd put it on approach, heading towards us on the flight line, and click the student button. He knew he was to move the plane out over the runway or beyond, pass by and climb out. Then I'd take control and do the same thing. The idea is to plan the day's work and focus on it.

Might help, I thought it was worth mentioning.
Good luck,
Dave Olson

Scar,
I agree with your comments for all students.
It kills me that most students that I acquire from someone else wants to put the plane so high and far out that I can't see it. I tell them to bring it in close and let them correct their own mistakes.
I give them visual clues of where to turn for final to fly over the runway and how far out to go before making an outbound turn. It amazes me how many people think that the plane should fly itself and you only need to move the sticks to do something different. I had one student that was so bad that I moved the elevator and aileron trims to the corners just to get him to keep his fingers on the sticks. He complained and didn't want me to train him any more but after he soloed, he told me that he now understood what I was trying to tell him and wanted me to teach him how to fly the plane and not let the plane fly him.

Some great advice here. I agree with the idea of a simulator, it will not only help with control input but it will help his eyes get used to seeing orientation.
What kind of airplane is he learning on. I have heard of a number of students that just couldn't get the hang of it until they flew one of the very large and slow planes like Kadet Senior or Senior Telemaster.
A short story of an older gentleman that is training at our field right now. He has his own buddy box and brings it to the field with him. One day a couple of weeks ago he grabbed the wrong box. Long story short, the instructor got the plane up and let him fly around. He had the best flight he ever had. He got in trouble a couple of times but got out by himself.
He was so used to the instructor taking over that it was making him a bit more sloppy.Without the buddy box he was kind of forced to be more carefull on the controls. I don't know how that story will help in your situation but its a true story.

One other thing to add. I did this when I was teaching my sons to fly. At the time they learned they were 8 and 10 years old. On the buddy box I put the elevator and ailerons on low rate and turned the rate down. This helped eliminate over control. As they got better I slowly turned them back up until they were at 100%. That might help here

Ken

Just to clarify what I said above about trimming the plane perfectly.. That is just until a struggling student starts to get a little feel for it. Once they catchup to a normal beginner, then I would go back to allowing them to deal with some out of trim issues.

Thanks for all the great ideas. I've told him if he doesn't give up, I won't. He's got a Nexstar (autopilot unplugged) and G3 simulator. I use "stick under the low wing". I'm starting to require a much more limited regimen. I like the "stick left/right" command. Gotta get that man a chair, too! I'm intrigued with the idea of putting the transmitter in his hands with no buddy box. There was a magazine article a few years ago that encouraged letting the student hold the transmitter while the instructor held his fingers just above the sticks. Has anyone here had success with that?

-------- That's how we taught before buddy boxes. It worked fine. As a plus we didn't have to solo the student twice; one with and one without the buddy box

You and your student should check out the 1st RC Flight School: [link]http://www.rcflightschool.com/[/link]

It might be a good option for your student, and you'll like get some ideas by looking at their methodical program. Their book, [link=http://www.rcflightschool.com/Solo_Manual.asp]One Week To Solo[/link], I think is an invaluable read for a new rc pilot and instructors alike. A lot of instructors could benefit from reading the approach of someone who has trained over 1000 students and actually done a lot of research on which teaching techniques work.

I've used a method similar to that one, but I have my students put their thumb on top of the stick and I put my thumb and forefinger underneath his thumb. I've been doing this for over 30 years now and have no trouble soloing people many times within 3 hours total, that is usually on the same day the first time they've ever touched a transmitter stick (no sim time at all). I've offered to show other instructors this method, but it seems they have no interest in learning something new.

CCR
http://www.amadistrictii.org/lorcf/RT.htm

As described, I'd appraise the problem as the student in this case.

The solution. Ultimately, there may not be one....but lots of patience with reasonable time frames and realistic objectives will effect the optimum results possible. It can take a long time to teach someone/learn RC at that age. If you combine the age related obstructions to learning something which requires considerable reflex response, physical co-ordination with rapid mental accuity with someone perhaps with a lesser natural aptitude for flying RC or/and physical (eyesight, tremor) or mental (eg: attentions span, et al deterioration with age related) impairment, regardless of their enthusiasm, ........it may take a long time - or be too late - for safe solo. Nothing to do with intelligence or whether they are a nice person or what they could once do or were. We're all headed in the same direction, it's just that for some, they've left the "learning to do it" part too late.

As generalisations go, I'd concur these are fairly accurate IME.

But this is simply false IME. As comforting to believe as the "learning to fly RC is harder than learning to fly the real ones", but quite untrue.

All of course, quite beside the point in this specific case because the fellow was not a Korean war pilot, but an electronics tech.

Despite the fact that real "pilots" (now there's a wide generalisation) still have to come to grips with the external perspective and different ergonomics, teaching qualified, truly accomplished and experienced pilots is ordinarily a lot easier because of their knowledge, understanding, and application to the task versus RC peers of equivalent age. Of course, one will always find the 10-20% amongst "pilot" ranks who do have an attitudinal barrier to learning. But that's no different than the same attitude barrier found amongst RC students in general. Clearly a temperament and personality type driven issue more than occupational one.

If an RC student who is an accomplished pilot intuits or detects a subliminal resentment or prejudicial attitude in their RC instructor from the outset, best to avoid those barriers to learning and effective instruction by changing to another without that baggage - tactfully - but immediately.

Not a trainer here by far, but was given a good bit of advice while learning to fly my raptor that actually helped me learn to fly the palens even better.

"Forget the sticks even have a center, if you want the stick to be in the center, put it there, dont let it go there on its own."

You never mentioned wheather you let the student try to learn on his own while you just keep the plane in the air or if you are issuing commands as the student trys flying. Most will will usually catch on what works by trying things on their own if you keep the plane from crashing after a while but some don't have a clue until you tell them. If thats the case, he simply may not know when to turn or that he needs to do to keep the plane flying. He may just need some timely commands such as "you are getting too far away, time to turn back now" or "start the left turn now and don't forget to pull the stick toward you to keep from losing altitude in the turn". If you have all ready tried this then he may just need more practice. Hope this helps. [8D]

crumpdan,
This thread is full of excellent advice. I recommend you pull out what you can use and apply it, but keep in mind that you many never solo this guy. He just may not be able to master the craft of flying an RC airplane. Work with him for as long as you can, but be prepared to break the bad news to him.

One more thing, when I learned to fly full scale, about halfway through my training I was temporarily assigned to a different instructor, the objective being to provide a different perspective on my emerging flying habits. You might want to loan you student to a different instructor for a while.

Regards,
doubledee

I know it's a long shot, but if your student wanted to learn bad enough to come to my area, I could almost guarantee that I could teach him within a couple of days. That's how confident I am of my teaching method.
We would fly several hours per day if necessary.

CCR

the only problem oftraining without the buddy bos is when the student gets in trouble and you reach for the transmitter and they turn away from you because they still think they want to correct themselves .then shove it into your hands wuith about 20 feet of altitude.This happened to me just one time about 30 years ago.I find that some students need more coaching/talking control inputs through the fligbhs than others.I would use the advice from the above post and reduce control throws,especially airlerons,most trouble is a result of over control/over correcting.one other thought is a lower pitch prop my also help and if progess is made the a higher pitch prop can be reinstalled.ie if using a 9-6 intall a 10-5

I guess I'll stick my nose in here. This is what I see here. Instructors who learn from idiots. They teach exactly the way they learned. No discipline whatsoever. Planes flying out in the north forty so damn far away, what is that all about! No basic traffic pattern skills, no nothing. Students flying all over the darn place. They aren't flying the plane at all, the plane is flying them! You cannot teach a student what you don't have yourself!

Keep them in close and a decent traffic pattern and they will learn basic flying discipline. Just because your "qualified" at something, does not mean your any good at it. I am a lousy instructor, don't have the patience for it, if they don't want to learn the right way, go find someone else. I'd rather enjoy myself while I am at the field, not deal with that all day long.

Where there is a will there is a way Leed the plane with your transmitter and it will fallow point the ant. the way the plane is moving . Seems you can move the sticks the right way easyer and keep the plane in line. And last not least even an old bold Pilot can be told you don't over control an aircraft or you have problems.
You no a lot of Instructors Scare the Hell out of most students comment on how well they are doing not what they need more practice on they no and it will take time

With my thumb and forefinger underneath the student's thumb, I can monitor his thumb movements and prevent him from banging the sticks around. I can then show him exactly how to move the sticks...from safe and smooth takeoffs to landings. Using this method, there is no need to pass the tx back and forth.

CCR

Have to share two discoveries I made today. First, I put my student (see beginning of thread) on my Aspire "EP" glider with an OS .25LA on the front. Rudder and reduced elevator travel and "DON'T TOUCH THE THROTTLE" and suddenly he looks like a student with a whole season of instruction! Still has problems but no ailerons to over-bank the wing and plenty of time to recover from mistakes. We are even operating without the buddy box! Next summer I'll let him try the "trainer" again. Discovery #1, sometimes a student needs more help than the typical trainer has to offer. Discovery #2, should have sawed off that lousy can motor long ago. That Aspire is sweet now.