I've been reading a lot of good suggestions here with a lot of good planes talked about, but is everybody taking into consideration the fact that skelrad is flying at 9000 ft.? If you've flown a full scale non-turbo/non-supercharged recip at that altitude, you know how degraded climb rate can be. While all these planes fly great at most fields which are probably at 3000 ft. or less, how will the thinnner air at skelrads atlitide effect it. Also how will the altitude affect engine performance? All engines have a service ceiling at which point they won't make their rated horse power. Guys I've talked to who live at elevations at and above 5000 ft. find that in a lot of cases they have to run larger engines to make up for the altitude, and this is just a bit more that half the altitude skelrad will fly at.

What he needs is a plane that will perform as well at 9000 ft. as everybody else see's at much lower atlitudes.

So here is a couple of questions -
Who knows why the average 2-stroke model airplane engine makes it best power at sea level or below, and loses power as the altitude goes up (i.e. why does an OS .40 AX make more power in Miami than Denver)?
Why will a plane (say a Cessna C-150, just to use as an example), climb at 650 feet per minute at 600 feet above sea level, yet less than 100 feet per minute at 8000 feet above sea level?

The basic theory behind the answers to these questions is what skelrad has to deal with.

Hogflyer

3hrs from nowhere? That puts you right smack in the middle of the Rockies. You can travel from Fort Collins to Pueblo in 3hrs. Can't find a single club in between there? You can get from Denver to Trinidad in 3hrs. Are you 3hrs from Fort Collins? 3hrs in any direction puts you within 45 minuets or an hour from the closest field. Colorado is peppered with flying clubs. They are everywhere. In all honesty, I think this is a BS post. You can't be 3hrs from the nearest club, no matter where you live in Colorado. It's just not possible. So, I think it's an excuse to go it alone and try to learn to fly without joining a club.

But, if you insist on going it alone, I will try to help you. I learned to fly at 6000'. I've flown in Silverthorne at about 8500' and I've flown in Leadville at 10,400'. I think I'm experienced enough to give you some advice on high altitude flying.

You need a HUGE engine to get enough thrust. RPMs don't mean squat. It's the thin air density that is going to cause a loss of thrust. I flew an LT-40 at 10,400' and only filled the tank up 1/2 full to save weight. It took me every damn inch of 600' to get it off the ground. All flying was done over 3/4 throttle. Anything lower than 3/4 throttle and it started to sink and get mushy. Landing speed was approaching 15-18MPH at about 1/2 throttle and sinking like a brick filled with lead ballast.

I'm an experienced pilot. I've been flying for close to 8yrs now. I fly giant scale gassers and 40 size 3D and I still have a hot rod LT-40 with a TH .75 that I like to flop around when I feel like slamming on a plane, but don't want the shaky nerves that go along with flying a $2500 gasser.

I flew my 80" Extra 300S w/G-62 powerplant and it was NOT fun. You guys think those things land fast at sea level? Try it at 10,000' [X(] Landing a 16 pound aerobatic plane in those conditions is like trying to land a guided missle on a poker card. Probably 30 MPH landing speed at 1/2 throttle and eating up runway like a dragster going down the 1/4 mile track. The runway gets real short in a big friggin' hurry.

I'll tell ya, flying at that altitude is not for the inexperienced or faint of heart. I highly recommend you just knuckle up and go find a club. The premise that your 3hrs from nowhere is simply untrue. Unless you live 25 miles up a dirt road on the backside of the continental divide and it takes a Hummer and 3 bulldozers to get down the driveway in the wintertime--your NOT 3hrs from a club. Can't be. You might be an hour from a club, and I realize how much of a mess it is to drive that far just to go flying. I used to drive an hour in HEAVY TRAFFIC in Denver just to go flying. I know it's a pain.

But, you need some help if you want to succeed at this. You just do. You've got extreme conditions to deal with and you have no experience. Get some help. If you insist ono going it alone, I'm afraid your just setting yourself up to fail. You don't have to fail. You can succeed, but you really need some help. I doubt you'll find any plane/engine combo that will land at slow enough speeds for you to actually learn by yourself and not tear up a bunch of planes in the process. There is just not enough air to get them slowed down to a reasonable landing speed.

You need to learn how to fly first. Get 10hrs of stick time on and get soloed first. Then go fly in the hay field out back.

I know this isn't what you wanted to hear. But, it's the truth from an experienced pilot who has flown at those kinds of altitudes. Trust me, I had my hands full. Thats no way to learn how to fly and land. You just have no idea how much runway your going to need and how FAST a plane is going to come down to land. Just steering it on the runway after you land is almost imossible. Think of the landing speeds that jets guys have to deal with. 30MPH? 40MPH? 60MPH? It's not a cake walk to control a plane on the ground at those speeds. You better be one smooth pilot, or your going to run that sucker right off the side of the runway and rip the undercarriage out of the plane.

Just get some help. If you were down in the middle of a wheet field in Kansas at 400' elevation--I wouldn't be telling you any of this. 9000' is a recipe for disaster--even for the most experienced pilots. I got lucky, and I won't be doing that again anytime soon.

Just curious....

Where do you live?

BTW, the idea that a trainer that's sturdy, or more sturdy than normal trainers, is an idea that can bite you.

If you're going to learn without the security of an instructor, no amount of sturdiness is going to be enough. Airplanes are compromises and overly strong ones are compromised. They fly lousy when they're beefed up too much. And are harder to fly and nearly impossible for learning.

the worlds best trainer is the sig kadet lt-40. simply the best and most durable trainer ever. it is very cost efficient. it will run very well with a .40 size motor and even better with the os .46 fx. it will do some areobatics also.

I appreciate all of the advice, but take it easy on the accusations, huh? I've got better things to do than start a BS post. Fact of the matter is, you hit the nail on the head with your description of where I live (you know, after you said that living 3 hours from nowhere is simply untrue)! I DO live 25+ miles up a dirt road that, what do you know, is up on the backside of the Continental Divide (hence being at 9000 feet). I live on a ranch, and yes, in the winter it's not uncommon that we have to take 6 hours to use the backhoe and tractor to dig out the 1/4 mile of our driveway to the nearest plowed road. Actually, that will be worse this year because we just built a new home about a 1/2 mile further down the driveway, so it may take all day to plow out now! But, sorry, we don't have a Hummer. Most of the time in the winter we just have to use snowmobiles to get around the ranch when the trucks can't make it through the snow (we average about 280" of snow a year). So your description was spot on - way to go! You have to remember that mileage means nothing in the mountains - there's no going 65 mph on the dirt roads up here!

You are right on one fact though - after looking into it further, the nearest flying club that I could locate is not 3 hours away. It's only 2 to 2 1/2 hours away (Steamboat Springs). But doing 4 hours of driving in a day is more than I can do just to get to an instructor. Working a ranch is a 12 hour a day job, 7 days a week. Hence, the reason I would like to be able to teach myself to fly.

Regardless of the fact that you think I'm full of it, thanks for the help. I know that flying at altitude is going to be tough, but the other option is to not fly at all. When I do take the time to drive to a place like Steamboat or Fort Collins, I'll make sure I take my plane and track down an instructor at a club. But that trip only happens once every month or two, so it's not a good "learn to fly" plan.

hillbillyexpress,

Have you ever tried the Balsa USA Swizzle Stick for durability (have you ever heard of the Swizzle Stick)? There a lots of good trainers out there in the .40 class, and with limited knowledge it's difficult to be able to lay a blanket statement on one trainer like that over another. They all have good pro's and con's to them. There is no best or most durable trainer out there - it all depends on a persons preference, and factors like where are they going to fly, what is prefered in the area of the country they live, ect.

skelrad,
Seeing more of your situation, you may want to seriously consider an electric powered glider. That is the only plane I can think of that has enough wing area (i.e. low wing loading) that will fly slow enough to learn on at your altitude. Electric motors don’t care what altitude they are at, so that is one thing in your favor. Have you considered posting in the powered glider and glider forum? Some of those guys may be able to give you some good guidance on what would work at your altitude.

Wish you the best of luck.

Hogflyer


Hogflyer

All,

I have to agree with the above. A few of you are acting like hes trying to teach himself how to do open heart surgery here. For gods sake, its RC aircraft.... Its supposed to be fun, not a witch hunt. What if he was full of it.... What if he just wanted to learn on his own, like many have in the past? Its no big deal and should be fun as long as he has some wood glue ;-)

Some of you should try to guide him better in his choice of plane, not attack him. Me personally, I dont like clubs, it too proper. I like to go it alone, in a field, with some friends... Its my choice. Give him the same ability.

I went this route,downloaded the free G3 demo.flew it enough to learn the basics as far as disorientation,stalling etc. I then built a SPAD BUHOR from the plans at spadtothebone.com .Frankly you cant get a tougher airplane than a BUHOR,its got a very low wingloading,Ive stuck it in trees cart wheeled it down the runways,stalled it up high and basicly got it into a flat spin, slamming into the ground,Ive tore up props,landing gear and mufflers but the SPAD held together.
With the basic training from the flight sim I would take it off,fly it without issue,landings were harder.At first I would just get it flying away from me,chop the throttle,keep it level and glide it in to the open field.When I got braver I would start landing approaches and start landing it where I needed to.After about 2 gallons of fuel I had it down,no instructor.
It may have been easier with an instructor,but with a SPAD it was fun going at it alone,worst case,as long as the engine and radio are ok your only out a $20 airplane,build a new one in a day,and start over.

I built a BUHOR, it had horrible flutter in the ailerons. I crashed it and folded it in two. Then I built the foam trainer. Now, I fly anything and help out the new guys. All this in 3 years. Oh yeah, my simulator has saved me thousands. I still use it too, it's fun to play with when it cold, or dark, or windy, or rainy, or too frigging hot to stand out side in the middle of a field in the hot, muggy St. Louis summer.

I'll have to second the idea of the Nexstar. It comes with a simulator, which you can do basic practice on. I would save the engine from the Seniorita for when you get a second plane. You will want to practice on the Nexstar's simulator until you are able to get roughly 20 landings and takeoffs, without crashing. While learning the simulator touch and goes, you will also learn orientation. Also, landing on the simulator is actually slightly more difficult than in real life, at least it was in my case anyway. Make sure you have the "speed brakes" installed on the Nexstar, as they also generate LIFT (I know from experience). Also, be sure to mow that grass strip very closely for less wheel rolling resistance. It's too easy to nose over in grass that's more than 1" thick.

There are some advantages to the Nexstar that other planes don't have. For one, the elevator and stabilizer are easily removed and replaced (they're held in place by strong nylon bolts). The wing bolts down with a single screw. If you damage a fuselage, you can save everything else and essentially just bolt the parts on the new fuse. The landing gear is a bit of a disadvantage, though. You have to make sure it snaps into place completely and give each side a toug. If one comes out, it may have to either be epoxied to the clip through the hole at the bottom, or you might wish to use rubber bands to "bunch them in" where they join the fuse, which ever works. I would opt for the latter.

Considering the altitude of where you live, I can't say how the Nexstar would perform. You might need a long strip, and you may need to fly it fast. So, anything you can do to get as much out of that wing as possible will help. Don't forget to install that simulator that comes with the plane, it's helped me a bunch. I wish you the best of luck, and let us know what you get!

NorfolkSouthern

skelrad,


I learnt to fly without an instructor as well due to certain circumstances. My learning curve has been slow as a result. but its certainly do-able.

instead of looking for a very sturdy, hard, well built plane, i'd suggest look for slow flyer electric that is very light and can glide to a landing if you take your hands off the stick. I started flying on something like this: (this is not the plane i learnt on, but its similar)

http://www.hobby-lobby.com/wingdragon.htm

Review
http://www.hobby-lobby.com/notes-wingdragon.htm

it taught me the basic controls and orientation. and when i'd do something stupid i'd just let go of the stick and it would glide itself back to the ground or crash but still be air worthy. (or when it lost battery power in the air). you need two things for this though...light or no wind, and a nice grassy open area to take care of the rougher landings. You can hand launch it because of the grass (the video tells u how to). Another advantage is that it comes with everything included at a relatively low price. you will not have to deal with the array of accesories that come with glow power. Even spares for this are available. Plus, it has only three channels so its not TOO complicated to fly and understand.
(Is this beginning to sound like one of those infomercials )

Once you get this plane under control you could start looking for something bigger but still slow to fly and with ailerons.

Just a suggestion...good luck with the flying...and post pics of what you buy and where you fly [8D]

im self teaching on a gws beaver with good success i have drained a couple of batteries without crashing and so far i have only lost a pair of props (they dont take much) i have had a couple of scary looking crashes and it just pops up and starts flying again (after a safety check) at 9kft i dont know though

Wow lots of advice so I am going to butt in with more. I feel your plain been their.. The little electric foamies are hard to break, but fly very hard meaning unstable. Big planes fly easy but are expensive experiments. I learned on a Telemaster 40 great slow flyer, BTW easy to repair. In your state I would do both pick a 40 size plane with your 40 engine on the high end so it’s over powered. Low wing load 10 to 15 oz. Then get a 400 size electric brushless again over powered by 50% in like trainer, eagle or telemaster etc. Just ONCE get an instructor to fly your new planes balance and trim them.. then you buddy box for 1 hour. Everyone needs a weekend vacation use one to learn a great hobby a H**l of a lot easier. You will be years ahead and many heart breaks behind, then use a simulator and your field to get good.
Rich

Here's annudder suggestion. FX Hobbies make ARF SPADs, their main claim to fame is their wings, they are nice, not the usual sharp leading edge you see on many SPADs.
I know your way up there in altitude, and these SPADs are a lit' on the heavy side (mine weights in at just under 7 lbs) so it will take more than a 40. But it will take some real abuse.
Just me 2cents, probably not worth a penny.

I agree with this is, as this was the route I went. I spent a couple weeks playing with the sim and took it up with no problems other then shaking knees [sm=bananahead.gif]. And you have a plane that will stay with you for all seasons. I am getting a set of skis for mine for some winter fun. As for being slow....I got an Evolution 61NT turning a 12x6 and she hauls around pretty good.

flynte

Multiplex Magister www.multiplexusa.com Tough foam, mix of EPP and EPS easy build.

I agree with a lot of other people and think you should get electric. Electric fly slower and when they crash, they tend to survive alot better than glow. I have flown the Hobby-Lobby Mini Telemaster (with modified bigger control surfaces) and think it is a good plane to learn on (only thing is, its a kit, but only takes 20 hours to build). Its three channel (left, right, up down, faster, slower) which is good becase a lot of beginners get confused with 4 channels (Roll- left, right; Yaw - left, right; up, down; faster, slower). Students get confused with 4 channel because on the ground, you use rudder, and in the air you use aileron.

I have taught all of my students on 3 channel planes first.

Cheers