Hey Guys, can some one tell me when your flying straight and level and you apply right or left rudder why the nose of the plane goes down. I don't have much rudder experience but I'm thinking it might be good to learn how to fly my Alpha 40 with just the rudder and elevator when I have it flying high. Right now I have no trouble flying with just the ailerons but my better judgement tells me I need to learn how to use it. When it comes too the cross wind landings I just correct my landings with the wind and land in the field but would rather land on the runway even with cross winds.

This is kinda the norm, so bear with me and if Im not quite right someone please jump in to correct me.
okay, when your prop is turning, and your rudder is in nutral, air is pushed back and hits the right side of the rudder.
when you apply right or left rudder (rudder when applied causes the fus to yaw from side to side) this interups the flow of air and slows the plane down. Some people apply right rudder when landing to slow the plane down on approach. then nutralize the rudder just before touch down. When taking off, you apply alittle right to help with engine torque.
Basicly when you fly with rudder in windy condition always point the rudder into the wind for rudder correction.
One thing you might try with your trainer is take a Y-harness and plug the rudder servo into one Y and the aileron servo into the other Y, then plug the other connector into the aileron channel on your reciever. To make shur your rudder is turning the right. apply right aileron and rudder sould turn right and apply left aileron and rudder sould turn left.
Remember your rudder stick will not work, and will only work with Aileron inputs. Then when you see how the rudder smooths out your loops and turns and want to go back to using the rudder stick, always remember to apply rudder towards the wind thats pushing at the plane.
Hope this helps!
NEDYOB

No, Definitely do NOT y-harness the rudder to the ailerons..

It is not that the rudder slows the plane down (when you start learning to land dead stick, you will learn to love your rudder because it keeps you in the air LONGER).

It is good to use the rudder to smooth out turns, but when you want to do this with your radio, you do it by mixing in a bit of rudder to the ailerons, not y-harnessing. It is good practice to do it manually though. Best to not be lazy while you are learning.

Another possible good reason for not Y-ing them is that one of them may require reversing to operate correctly. Can't do that with a plain Y-harness.
Also if you find a need for ailerons during takeoff it could steer the plane completely off the runway. Just a BAD idea all the way around.

So you are saying that if he is flying along straight and level with wind coming from the direction of his left wing and he wants to make a right turn, he should use left rudder?

NOT!!

Guys, I have no intention of using a Y harness ever....I feel like I need to learn control with out it.
I've played with rudder control while flying in any direction with or with out wind and the nose still drops. So I've applied opposite aileron and that levels it out more but then I think I'm sliding around into the turn. I know you can use both aileron and rudder to make a more graceful turn which I've played with also but just understanding how these surfaces work together isn't easy.

It's called pitch coupling, some planes are worse than others. Part of the reason your Alpha does it is because the rudder hinge line is at an angle to the direction of flight, and when you deflect the rudder it is not 90 degrees to the relative wind, but angled, so it lifts the tail as it yaws the plane. It is also changing the relationship of the wing to the relative wind, and the advancing wing is making more lift than the other, which will roll the plane, and that along with the yaw change, pitches the nose down.

Apply some up elevator when you apply rudder, it will help, but not eliminate the pitch-down. If you want to make a "flat" turn, input opposite aileron with the rudder and elevator, or the rudder alone.

Practice with that rudder, it'll save your ***** as well as your plane, some day.

actually the secret to flying wuth rudder and elevator the way it was done 40 years ago was to apply up elevator first to raise the nose and then the rudder to start the bank and then more elevator to increase the rate of turn if needed while reucing the amount of rudder to keep the nose from dropping.

Knogdes and Aerowoof, That's just what I wanted to know! I've been playing with flat turns but that sure is strange looking when you do it. Another thing I think I'm doing wrong is holding input into the rudder to long....I didn't know you can put it back to neutral so soon. I'll just give it small inputs of rudder with some up elevator next flights and see what happens. Now I'm guessing here but with to much held in rudder input that would put you into a spin if you didn't give it up elevator?
I think I'll also practice going back to neutral on all control surfaces when I fly.....thanks guys! There sure is a lot to learn when you fly....it's not like steering a car at all!!! LOL!

When your flying your plane, the only thing you need to with the rudder is keep the tail of the plane following the nose. If you go into a turn and the tail looks a little low, add a little rudder to bring it back in line etc. Going vertical and your falling off to one side, add a little to get you back straight. There is no big deal, just keep back end following the front end and you will be fine.

I hate sounding repetitive......aw heck, I lied.

The rudder is perhaps my most-used surface in aerobatics and 3D, some would argue I use it too much. I am not especially 'good' at flying, but I certainly got much better once I had learned to use rudder effectively. You can't hover, Knife-edge, correct for wind, line-up for landings, point-roll, do spins, harriers or flat-turns without rudder....(there's probably much more).

The plane that taught me to use rudder well was a foamie from http://www.chargerrc.com (I love these planes for 3D practice).

Learn to use your rudder effectively and you will be a better flyer than more than half of the 'experienced' people who have been 'flying' for years. Sadly, there are many, many people who never bothered to learn proper rudder control.

way back when we used to have pylon races with h or s rays and veco 19's.I could do rolls with the rudder and by holding almost full down elevator it would fly and even climb inverted,this was with a flat bottom wing.the rudder only planes can do rolls and even loops but like everthing it takes practice and the right technique.It is good that you are willing to practice the other thing to practise is flying straight and not losing altitude with cross coupled controls.ie:apply say right airleron but immediately apply left rudder so that the plane will fly straight while it is banked.this will be usefull for crosswind landings.

Hi pywackit,
I totally agree with khodges and agexpert.
Rudder is very improtant when flying certain manovers, tracking on the runway, especially after landing, and for that matter in gliders.
In the early days or RC when a lot of models had loads of dihedral, turning was performed with rudder only (less channels), or even both rudder and ailerons. With the vast majority of todays models you do not need rudder in a normal turn.
Gliders need rudder because the extra length of the wings coupled with no propwash past the fin increases the aerodynamic 'side effect' caused by applying aileron.
What in effect happens is, lets say you apply right aileron. As the right aileron moves up it causes less drag that the left downgoing aileron. This has the undiserable effect of yawing the nose to the left (remember you want to go right). In a glider you must apply right rudder to prevent the yaw left and keep the nose pointing in the direction you wish to go. Thus the airframe will perform at maximun efficency.
Now in a model power plane, while this still happens it is normally so slight that it is not even noticable from the ground, (pattern aerobatic pilots please do not shot me for that) and so we can get away with only using ailerons to turn.
If you wish to improve your rudder skills I would suggest you ask an experienced club member to teach you some aerobatics. You do need rudder for that, and, you will begin to become more critical of your own flying. This is the point when you really do improve your flying skills.
Entering novice aerobatics events is another great help. An experienced judge will tell you where you are going wrong and you can go back to the club and practise until that error has been fixed.

Pywackit> Theoretically, I can't tell you what makes your plane pitch down when you apply rudder unless I personally fly and look at your plane. But I do have an answer of your second problem, which is "the cross wind landing" as you mentioned. A lot of folks give you some information on how and when to apply rudder while flying. At this point, I am sure you're quite confused. Let's make it simple!! I make it easier for you to understand.


You apply rudder :


A- When you counteract the torque effect of the engine on take off. (In such a case, you apply right rudder to compensate the torque effect that pulls the aircraft to the left)



B- When you land crosswind. (Let's say the wind is coming from your left, which is 90 deg to the runway and you are on final approach. First, crab or tilt the airplane into the left by applying left aileron. Then, you apply right rudder to straighten the nose out as soon as the main wheels touch the runway.



C- To prevent the plane from slipping or skidding when you bank the wing to the left or to the right. (When we say "skidding", we mean the plane is turning too fast for the degree of bank. Then, we have to relieve rudder pressure to decrease the turn rate. On the other hand, when we say "slipping", we mean the plane is not turning fast enough for the degree of bank. Then, we have to apply more rudder pressure to increase the turn rate. This is the principle of the coordinated turn.)


You don't have to understand part C unless you want to learn to fly a full scale. However, mastering both part A and B is very crucial when you fly model planes

One exception to bigfeet's rule is the Piper Cub. Aileron turns are nearly impossible without copious use of rudder to correct for adverse yaw with a scale cub. It can be really ugly. I would agree, however, that it's entirely possible to fly most planes witout much rudder. I watch 'experienced' guys do it all the time.

All you're doing in a flat turn is skidding the tail around, the ailerons are just nulling the tendency of the plane to bank from the dihedral in the wing as the advancing wing tries to go up from the increased lift.

It only takes a small input from the rudder to initiate a turn, and it will be smoother to maintain a small input throughout the turn than to use "short bursts" of a bigger input. Using rudder is just like steering a car, in that you maintain the input until you're pointed the way you want to go, then release, or straighten the wheel. You don't have the coupling effects in a car, you're only moving in one dimension (yaw).

I agree with Alliot that "A" and "B" are crucial to flying a model, but I think "C" is just as important in models as full scale. A & B are the cake, and C is the icing

Thanks Guys, that's a lot of help! The sad thing is that today it's beautiful outside and I'm chained to my desk here at work.....[]

While Rudder was being discussed I have a question here, I hope some senior experienced flyer would be able to answer. Question is

I always had problems taking my plane off in cross wind, naturally plane is moving straight and cross wind is coming from right side while plane is airborne, the wind completely throwing/dragging the plane towards left causing the plane to hit the ground. Couple of weeks back, same thing happend, I was flying my friend's piper cub 40 size, I took it off in cross wind, it threw my plane towards left as it was coming cross from right to left, and it caused the plane to just take a deep left turn, and it hit the ground, elevator damaged minorly, so what I really wanna ask, when taking off a plane straight in line and cross wind is there, and u cannot fly it directly into the wind, I also have to give right rudder to the plane alongwith right aileron, in order to keep the plane flying straight? or it won't make any difference?

Please clarify.

Thanks

say the wind is from right to left you apply right airleron[full] and as speed increases you reduce the amount.use the rudder to track down the runway but you want the wings banked into the wind so the plane will not get blown over

Thanks aerowoof,

While wind is blowing from right to left, I should rudder my plane to right towards wind and apply elevator alongwith full full right aileron, so it won't get the plane blown over. This is what you mean, if I got it right?

Mody

yes but only use enough rudder to track down the runway not turn and be prepared to ease off on the airlerons as you pick up speed otherwise you will liftoff and immediately start to roll.also you do not need to apply elevator until you have sufficent flying speed

the rudder on a plane should never be used to turn a plane, the rudder is simply there to help cooridinate the turn which you are making. at least thats what I use it for in the real planes....

your statement is not quite correct.depends on the design 30 or so years ago I added airlerons to a Sig Aerobipe,a 3 channel design.airlerons only made it roll it would not turn at all,had to use the rudder.it also turned just fine with the rudder and no airlerons

It seems you are getting a bunch of complicated answeres to what seems to me to be a simple question. The reason the nose is dropping is because as you apply rudder, lets say right rudder, then you are putting the left wing into the reletive wind. Most sport planes and all trainers have some dihedral in the wings so as one wing in this case the left goes in to the releative wind that wind is getting under the wing and pushing it up. causing a roll. and as is always the case when you roll the plane you must apply up elevator to maintain altitude. If you want to slip (which is what you are trying to do by applying rudder in straight level flight) then giv some opposite aileron to hold the leading wing down.


A quick comment on the above post.

A plane turns, whether model or full scale, due to the horizontal component of lift. So no, rolling the wings does not cause a turn, but trying to hold the nose on the horizon while the wings are something other than horizontal does. Think about it, there is no flight control that controls "turns" ailerons are all about roll, elevator is about pitch and rudder is the benevolent dictator of yaw. turns happen when things are used properly.

Really?

So, let me get this straight. Flat turns, hammerheads, KE loops and wing-overs should never be done. KE flight, hovers, harrier 8's and rollers are OUT OF THE QUESTION. That leaves slow, boring, well- coordinated circles with the occasional 'victory roll'...thanks anyway...what's on the fishing channel tonight?


Thanks for the tip.