IMO...get a simulator. Helps tremendously with orientation and coordination. Doesnt have to be an expensive G3 either. I am using Clearview($30) with a USB transmitter box($20). A Definite help.

They can also get you into bad habits that are easily reset on a simulator but destroy aircraft at the field

The thing to keep in mind is that you have to be disciplined to get value out of a sim. If you just goof around, you're not going to get any better with it--you could very well build some very bad habits.

Here's a list of some of the "bad" habits one can develop:
1) Failing to keep the plane straight during takeoff run.
2) Climbing out too steep.
3) Not maintaining a constant altitude while turning.
4) Turns that aren't smooth, too sharp, etc.
5) Forgetting that there is a left stick.
6) Not lining up with the runway during landing approach.
7) Using ailerons instead of rudder to make course corrections when landing.
8) Using the elevator to extend the landing when you realize you're short.
9) Failure to learn the signs that a plane is about to stall, and what to do to avoid it, or recover from it.

This is just a partial list. I think that simulators are a great training aid when learning, but only when they are used properly. They should be used to practice the techniques you learn from each lesson at the field with your instructor. If done this way it can dramatically reduce the amount of time it takes to learn to fly. Now before I get flamed from those that "taught themselves to fly" using a simulator, I'll clarify that I'm not saying that it's not possible to learn to fly from the simulator. And there are those that have indeed done it. But to those I would say that unfortunately when you are self taught you just don't know what exactly it is that you don't know.

That's my 2¢ worth.

Ken

Excellent Points. Thanks for listing so that we can continue to learn .

I am learning to fly and will say that I did not buy a sim. But I did use one at the LHS every trip there. The biggest thing I noticed is the understanding of stick operation (Somewhat). My 12 year old daughter kept a plane up for quite a while and she only had maybe 10 minutes on the sim. But myself, I am going to put that money into another plane.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Del

Well I think for someone that has NO stick experience and might find it hard to find someone to help...I think it is beneficial. For the minimal cost...At the very least...great stick practice. Someone might get to land on their maden flight. Jusy my opinion.

you meant to say
my crooked take offs
my steep climb outs
my dive turns
my sharp jerky turns
isn't that for the throttle only
if its close to the runway well its close enough
ailerons the other rudder
I thought the elevator was the runway extender
stall whats that, I was trying to do the pourpose manuver
boy oh boy I better un plug the box,well mabee not then I wouldn't be able to post at RCU

sorry ken couldn't help myself frankly my sim has helped me be soooooo!much, I am so much better of a pilot because of the sim. 4yrs ago or so I re-entered the hobby I fly warbirds now thanks to the sim and alot of help from my club members who gave me alot of practical advice.
to point out the weekness of a tool yes, but to say it gives bad habbits, I just don't know, the bad habbits come from not using the skills aquired from the sim and finding what works in the real world situations that RC gives you in the field.
a bad habbit is one that you hold onto and stick with no matter what.
the lesson should be if it don't work change your approach to a situation and be flexable in the way you fly, there is no set way to fly, whats right is how much fun you are having and being sucessful ie;landing without turning your plane into a pile of sticks one persons version of the right way doesn't always apply to another take the lessons from the sim use them to work the buggs out and then apply those lessons to more sim training to make yourself a better pilot.

Tim,
I'm not saying that sims aren't a good thing, because they are a fantastic tool... When used correctly. In your case you say that you re-entered the hobby, which means that you have previous experience flying. You know/knew what you are supposed to do, and you used the sim to get the rust off of your flying skills. What I am referring to is the brand new pilot that has never touched a RC plane. They spend a ton of time on the sim to the point where they "fly" every plane in the sim, then run out to the field thinking that they are ready to fly. Yes it's true that some will be able to do this, and those that can do it are the "natural" pilots that can fly with no instruction at all, but for the large majority this isn't going to happen. Computers and sims are great, but they can't replace actual hands on experience. Hey, I can fly a 747 from coast to coast on Microsoft Flight Simulator..... does that mean I'm ready to go to work for an airline????? No.

Ken

How about a reply for a raw newbie. I have zero flight time in the air, but a bunch on the sim G3.5. I bought this 1st as I wanted to know if I could fly at all. I have seen a big improvement in my own flying on the sim. Heck, my 11 yr old daughter was flying circles around me in the LHS both times before we bought RF. All I could do was crash within 2 min or not even get off the ground. Now I can keep the plane in the air and do respectable. I am working on level flight, smooth flying and gentle turns and most important landings. I vary the wind speed and direction all the time as to not get complacent. Boy does wind play a factor on landing and takeoff, especially crosswinds. I am spending my time flying the Nextstar and PT40 trainers with some on the Senior Telemaster.

To answer comments which I feel for MY aspect are important. I have meet the local club, been to a meeting, been to the field multiple times and I will join the club and the AMA. I have meet the instructor and even discussed my 1st plane with him and others at the field. They mentioned this site to me
FYI I have a Goldberg Protege 60 that I will start building this week, comes tomorrow! I found Ken's LT40 build that I will use that thread for reference.

I have 1 & 2 covered as well as I can to I get real air time. Working hard on #3 & 4 Still jerky sometimes on the turn.
Use the left on the throttle but not sure of myself on the rudder. See comment below.
6, I am trying, 7 guilty, started using rudder last night. I am not sure how to use the rudder on the plane, any advice?? 8, no I go aroound if I blow the landing; 9, trying, but without an instructor or someone with me that know the signs and can teach me ......

I expect to learn a lot from my instructor and look forward to the time with him. I am in no hurry and to solo and would prefer to take my time to get it right and not become Cpt Crash [&o]. Would someone be willing to share some informaiton on the use of the rudder? The only place I use the rudder with any consistancy is on takeoff with opposite rudder and to slightly steer the plane down the centerline.

I realize that air time is going to be different from the sim as thing are always changing in the real world. What I hope is I have the coordination down and movements feel normal on the sticks so I can learn what my instructor is teaching me and enjoy the flying.

Thanks
John

I think a sim is an excellent tool. It CAN lead to bad habits, but I think the good far out-weighs the bad.

What people end to forget is: It's a training DEVICE, not a training METHOD. So getting a Sim is an excellent idea, but just as we tell newbies "Don't go flying without an instructor or you will crash", we should also tell them, "Use a Sim to learn the basic controls, but get advice from an instructor so you don't get into bad habits.

I am currently training a father/son team "Long Distance".

The story is: Once a year I go to a Fun Fly about 25 miles away. One of the girls I work with lives in the area, and the Fun Fly is always in conjunction with the local town's yearly festival.

Last year, I told her to stop by the field with her 12 yr old son to check it out. Well, her son just loved it, but I wasn't perpared to do any training (Wrong Airplane to train with) so they just watched.

Later she told me how he still talks about it and says, "I wish I could have tried it", etc.

So I recently loaned her a Sim and told her to let him try it out. She came back and said that her son AND her husband just loved it. So I told her to have them start learning GOOD habits - Start "Boxing the field" and "keep the legs straight", etc, etc.

This summer, when we have that Fun Fly again, I'm going to bring along a trainer and spend some time on the buddy box with them and see how well they do

The Sims are a great learning tool. I wish I had got it from the very beginning.
I got an instructor after teaching myself. He does`nt have to buddy box with me and never has. He says I`m very advanced for a noobie. I think it`s because of my back ground in aviation and the sim.
What I did`nt get from the sim was knowledge. I`ve learnt more in the 3 weeks from the guys at the field, than I would have on my own in 3 years.
Wind on the sims is not like wind in real life. It has a mind of it`s own.
The sims can`t preflight your plane, help tweak the engine, find that servo flutter, or dang-it how come it wont draw fuel, ect. Sims don`t come close to a good instructor. And at the end of the flying day you have great memories that don`t shut off with the touch of a button

As a self-taught pilot, or I guess I should say SIM-taught, I chuckled at RCKen's list because I practice most of those habits. I practiced on the G3 Sim for a couple of months, concentrating mainly on take-offs and landings (literally hundreds and hundreds). The first nice weather day, I took my Hobbistar MKIII 60 to the local field and away I went. Over-shot the landing each time and eventually busted my prop that first day, but still haven't had an all-out-crash *knock on wood* after nearly 3 full gallons of flying time.

That being said, there is no substitue for watching and talking to other pilots. Learning the etiquette of the field, flying tips, tuning tips, the difference between "real-wind" and "diet-simulated-wind" can't be learned on the SIM.

I wouldn't change how I started my RC flying career. I'm oddly proud that soloed right out of the gate and I see these other freshman pilots stuck to a buddy-box walking out to the runway like little children tethered to their mother at an amusement park. However, I catch myself watching them fly in order to refine my flying skills and learn the proper techniques.

This is one habit that I intend to keep.

Again this is a tool that has proven helpful to ME ...ALONG WITH field experience and tips from the guys. Everyone is discussing the "bad" habits that are learned...why not give us a rundown of some of the tasks a NOOB might try to perfect while on a sim. Im sure it would be helpful to all that indeed use the sim as an additional learning tool....NOT to be mistaken with a VIDEO GAME.

Im sure we can ALL understand what some of you are saying regarding the need to actually be on the field, talk to the guys, watch and learn. Dont you think that someone that started on a SIM might have a better idea of smooth control techniques vs someone who MIGHT...just saying someone might...start on their own and give full elevator upon takeoff because they truly have NO IDEA how a plane reacts when the sticks are moved partially vs all the way etc.? DO they still need an instructor? HELL YES....There is no such thing as a short cut with as large of an investment as this hobby can be...but the joy the NOOB will get from that first flight with an instructor being much smoother because of the SIM experience will be the first of many memories that the planes we love will bring.

Someone once told me: Opinions are like A**holes....we all have them.

Scoffing at people that are on buddy boxes shows a bit of disrespect for those that are doing just that and for the instructors that spend the time to help these people. If you think you learned how to fly on the sim, and believe you have it all locked up after three gallons of fuel, well, good for you. It will take many more gallons of fuel to really learn what is necessary in this sport to graduate out of the novice level.

Those of us that train others how to fly on buddy boxes will continue to do so, even if it is only two or three flights before we turn them loose on their own. As for me, it took me about three months of buddy box flying with several instructors (several because they all thought it was a good idea to get ideas and techniques from other pilots). And once I solo'ed, I still asked for help on the buddy box with a new plane, just to make sure all was well with both my plane and my flying habits. Every plane flys differently.

Sure, I've crashed a few, and so will you, that's a fact of life with RC. No matter what you think, you are still a freshman in this hobby no matter what you fly (meaning all of us). Buy that new low-wing aerobatic plane and you just became a freshman all over again no matter how much time you have on your high-wing trainer.

There's no doubt going the buddy box route is the proper thing to do. No disrespect intended with the previous post. After reading this forum for a while, I know 3 gallons of flight time is a drop in the bucket of most of the pilots posting here. And I'm sure no matter how much SIM practice is done, I'm bound to crash and burn a plane one of these days. I kind of feel like I got away with one on that first flight. It's a strange mix of ignoranance, naivette, stupidity, luck and guts I can wear for the rest of my RC days. It's borderline childish, but what the hell...these are model airplanes.

An R/C simulator if used as a training aid is invaluable. A SIM used as a toy or video game is just that – a toy and video game.

A large number of clubs have listed on their websites the syllabus that’s used for training a new pilot; “... fly large circles while maintaining altitude – fly figure eights while maintaining altitude – fly rectangular patterns while maintaining altitude, etc., etc. ...� Being capable of doing this on a SIM is NOT detrimental to learning to fly R/C. Being capable of doing this BEFORE actually flying a real R/C airplane would put anyone head and shoulders above others who have never flown a real R/C airplane before.

I flew a sim for probably a couple of months before heading to the flying field. Then it was close to another month before I had my plane, instructor scheduled and actually went there to fly for the first time. I soloed the first day out.

Since then, about three months now, my skills have progressed a little further. I now sometimes fail to keep my plane straight during the take-off run. I almost always point the thing straight up and climb out too steep. My flights consist more of vertical climbs, dives, knife edges, loops and rolls then straight and level flight. I’ve even been known to not line myself up with the runway during landing, even landing mid-field sometimes ... One thing that the sim taught that I still find myself still doing, is using the rudder on short final. It was the one comment that my instructor made when we were shooting touch and goes (while still hooked to the buddy box). “Good job with the rudder to correct for that crosswind.�

“Yep ...� It wasn’t long after that landing that he walked over, as I was refueling for my next flight, and said; “Do you think you can make the next flight by yourself? You really don’t need me ...�

My experience with an R/C simulator is one where no bad habits were created, my actual flying time from initial flight to solo was greatly reduced and in my opinion (and others who have complimented my flying ability) my skills are above most of those with similar experience. “I still fly the sim� as much as an hour per day ... even on those days when I can visit the field and get in some “real� flying.

Don’t buy a sim and get another airplane to crash ... or spend that money on a sim and learn NOT to crash that next airplane... … as well as learning all of those 3D maneuvers that you'd never be willing to risk your airplane trying, like rolling harriers, high alpha knife edges, walls and hovers.

3D maneuvers are way beyond anything that a new flyer needs to focus on with anything, even a simulator, although I must admit that if you are gonna do it, that's the place to do it. That way you can figure out that it's not as easy as it seems to be, then wreck those virtual planes rather than the ones made out of balsa.

You're right, Foos. Look at it that way and get some sim time and some stick time on the buddy box. Supplement what you learn from your instructor on the sim and practice that.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with figuring out how to fly inverted on the SIM. Best place for it. You get the feel of the push needed to keep the nose up while inverted then learn the difference with left and right movement while inverted. That goes pretty much for any of the other maneuvers, getting muscle memory coordinated so that the next move comes naturally. That's what I would use the sim for.

Take off and landing are a bit of a pain because you don't have the perspective of the ground as that sim plane is going around and setting up for an approach. Once you get the back ground memorized then you put the plane in the same place in the sim even though you can't see the ground yet, then make the approach with throttle adjustments. That's the way it's done in real life.

Just hang in there and work with both the sim and the buddy box/instructor route and burn more fuel. Burn fuel.. burn fuel.. that's what my instructor always says to me.. "wanna learn it? Well, how many gallons of fuel did you burn trying?"

BUT if you are going to do it in real flying, then always remember the "three mistakes high" rule. Get that thing way up there then practice. If you make a mistake, there is plenty of air under your plane to recover if you follow that simple rule.

DS.

...Does anyone know if there is any (good) flying simulator program made for Mac ??
Mikke

Oooooooo me too!

I'm also a Mac user and I haven't found one yet.

However, one of our computer gurus at the office is going to add something to my mac that will allow it to run Windoz programs.

If it works well, I'll let you know

Minn,
As a an IT geek I can tell you to not get your hopes up too high on that one. The usual types of software that you can get to port across isn't the "fun" stuff. Usually graphics intensive programs like games or simulators won't work well on emulations like that. Your milage may vary!

Ken

Minn, If you've got an Intel based Mac you should be able to run Windows XP via Bootcamp. I've heard of a few of us Mac owners doing it that way and running PC flight sims without a problem. Unfortunately my poor old G4 Powerbook just isn't up to the task.........
It's unlikely that any of the decent PC flight sims will be converted to pure Mac format as the demand just isn't there (we're a rare breed!) and also now with the ability to actually run Windows on the new Macs.

That something is called Windows. If he's installing Parallels (or any of the other virtualization programs) you won't be able to run sims. The sims require Windows to talk directly to the graphics hardware, which can't happen with virtualization--yet.

Ken, it's not likely to be an emulator. Virtualization is different than emulation in that it's actually using the hardware, rather than emulating it.

Minn, have him install Bootcamp along with whatever else he's putting on. Bootcamp is free from Apple, and allows you to boot directly into Windows. That'll let you run the natively. You've already got a license for Windows if you're going to put on Parallels, so it's not a problem to also use that through Bootcamp.

If you are working through Parallels, have your IT guy make a copy of your Parallels drive image once he's done getting it configured. When you have problems with Windows (and you will), just copy your work out of the drive image, replace the drive image with the copy, and copy your work back. That's a 5 minute process, and it'll save you the hassle of troubleshooting or waiting for help.