Industry ethics?
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05-25-2007 | 12:50 PM
#29
RE: Industry ethics?
ORIGINAL: MinnFlyer
Now, can I sell anybody a Salsa maker?
Now, can I sell anybody a Salsa maker?
Remember "Mr. Tea" from an old Saturday Night Live ad. All you do is place an empty mug with a teabag below the device, pour hot water into the top of the device, and you get a fresh hot cup of tea.
I still use mine every day.
05-25-2007 | 01:43 PM
#31
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From: Omaha,
NE
RE: Industry ethics?
Ah, the ever present trainer discussions. First, let me preface these statements by saying, "I love my NexSTAR".
I trained and soloed on it. Damaged and repaired it, ( I hate saying the word 'crash'). And, have begun modifying it.
It's now a taildragger, and eventually will be outfitted with floats and a different wing. She's big, floats around the sky like a giant butterfly,
and can "kick it" to a point.
However, when someone asks about what plane I fly, inevitably the next question out of their mouth is, "Should they get one of those?"
After referencing the same info as above. I tell them the price differences of say an Avistar or Tower 40 trainer. My big objection to the NxeSTAR,
is all the "training extras" that Hobbico uses to market the NexSTAR as a "Teach yourself to fly" airplane. And, the extra cost involved by adding these to a great airframe. Even, close attention to "reviews" of the NexSTAR reveal the problems with the AFS system. Most beginners will go out after work/school, and try to fly with the AFS. The problem arises when the sun has descended far enough to give the AFS sensor an incorrect light reading and cause the plane to try and "correct" itself. When in reality what it does is fly in a different manner than the beginner expextcs it to. And, the beginner doesn't understand enough to know what is or isn't correct flight characteristics. If the NexSTAR were available without the wing droops, air brakes and AFS, perhaps at a slightly lower price, I'd be talking it up like no other. It is a great RTF or ARF plane.
I surprised a couple of people at the field on training night, last night, by assembling a beginners "New in the box", still in the plastic, NexSTAR. Not a big deal, until we spent a few minutes with the beginner, adjusted the elevator and ailerons a tad ,started the engine a couple of times, tweaked the HSN a little to get a decent transition, and then the plane took to the air under the confident guidance of one of our wonderful instructors. The beginner had that surprised-proud-scared-cautious look on his face. Oh, by the way, we disconnected the AFS, removed the wing droops, and did not install the air brakes. When the beginner took control with the buddy box, he made a couple of really nice circuits around the pattern.
If someone wants a larger than most trainers plane, and can afford the extra cost, the NexSTAR is a great trainer. But, for the budget minded, want to start as cheap as possible, soon-to-be pilot, the Avistar, Tower 40, and many others are just as good to learn with.
I know I'm gonna get blasted for the next statement, and I know there are those FEW that can and have taught themselves to fly. But, unless you're really that darn good, beginners should always seek out and get training from experienced pilots. If they're a qualified instructor, all the better.
Ok, I'll put away the soapbox, now.
I trained and soloed on it. Damaged and repaired it, ( I hate saying the word 'crash'). And, have begun modifying it.
It's now a taildragger, and eventually will be outfitted with floats and a different wing. She's big, floats around the sky like a giant butterfly,
and can "kick it" to a point.
However, when someone asks about what plane I fly, inevitably the next question out of their mouth is, "Should they get one of those?"
After referencing the same info as above. I tell them the price differences of say an Avistar or Tower 40 trainer. My big objection to the NxeSTAR,
is all the "training extras" that Hobbico uses to market the NexSTAR as a "Teach yourself to fly" airplane. And, the extra cost involved by adding these to a great airframe. Even, close attention to "reviews" of the NexSTAR reveal the problems with the AFS system. Most beginners will go out after work/school, and try to fly with the AFS. The problem arises when the sun has descended far enough to give the AFS sensor an incorrect light reading and cause the plane to try and "correct" itself. When in reality what it does is fly in a different manner than the beginner expextcs it to. And, the beginner doesn't understand enough to know what is or isn't correct flight characteristics. If the NexSTAR were available without the wing droops, air brakes and AFS, perhaps at a slightly lower price, I'd be talking it up like no other. It is a great RTF or ARF plane.
I surprised a couple of people at the field on training night, last night, by assembling a beginners "New in the box", still in the plastic, NexSTAR. Not a big deal, until we spent a few minutes with the beginner, adjusted the elevator and ailerons a tad ,started the engine a couple of times, tweaked the HSN a little to get a decent transition, and then the plane took to the air under the confident guidance of one of our wonderful instructors. The beginner had that surprised-proud-scared-cautious look on his face. Oh, by the way, we disconnected the AFS, removed the wing droops, and did not install the air brakes. When the beginner took control with the buddy box, he made a couple of really nice circuits around the pattern.
If someone wants a larger than most trainers plane, and can afford the extra cost, the NexSTAR is a great trainer. But, for the budget minded, want to start as cheap as possible, soon-to-be pilot, the Avistar, Tower 40, and many others are just as good to learn with.
I know I'm gonna get blasted for the next statement, and I know there are those FEW that can and have taught themselves to fly. But, unless you're really that darn good, beginners should always seek out and get training from experienced pilots. If they're a qualified instructor, all the better.
Ok, I'll put away the soapbox, now.
05-25-2007 | 01:50 PM
#32
RE: Industry ethics?
I know I'm gonna get blasted for the next statement, and I know there are those FEW that can and have taught themselves to fly. But, unless you're really that darn good, beginners should always seek out and get training from experienced pilots. If they're a qualified instructor, all the better.
05-25-2007 | 01:51 PM
#33
RE: Industry ethics?
ORIGINAL: N429EM
Ah, the ever present trainer discussions. First, let me preface these statements by saying, "I love my NexSTAR".
I trained and soloed on it. Damaged and repaired it, ( I hate saying the word 'crash'). And, have begun modifying it.
It's now a taildragger, and eventually will be outfitted with floats and a different wing. She's big, floats around the sky like a giant butterfly,
and can "kick it" to a point.
However, when someone asks about what plane I fly, inevitably the next question out of their mouth is, "Should they get one of those?"
After referencing the same info as above. I tell them the price differences of say an Avistar or Tower 40 trainer. My big objection to the NxeSTAR,
is all the "training extras" that Hobbico uses to market the NexSTAR as a "Teach yourself to fly" airplane. And, the extra cost involved by adding these to a great airframe. Even, close attention to "reviews" of the NexSTAR reveal the problems with the AFS system. Most beginners will go out after work/school, and try to fly with the AFS. The problem arises when the sun has descended far enough to give the AFS sensor an incorrect light reading and cause the plane to try and "correct" itself. When in reality what it does is fly in a different manner than the beginner expextcs it to. And, the beginner doesn't understand enough to know what is or isn't correct flight characteristics. If the NexSTAR were available without the wing droops, air brakes and AFS, perhaps at a slightly lower price, I'd be talking it up like no other. It is a great RTF or ARF plane.
I surprised a couple of people at the field on training night, last night, by assembling a beginners "New in the box", still in the plastic, NexSTAR. Not a big deal, until we spent a few minutes with the beginner, adjusted the elevator and ailerons a tad ,started the engine a couple of times, tweaked the HSN a little to get a decent transition, and then the plane took to the air under the confident guidance of one of our wonderful instructors. The beginner had that surprised-proud-scared-cautious look on his face. Oh, by the way, we disconnected the AFS, removed the wing droops, and did not install the air brakes. When the beginner took control with the buddy box, he made a couple of really nice circuits around the pattern.
If someone wants a larger than most trainers plane, and can afford the extra cost, the NexSTAR is a great trainer. But, for the budget minded, want to start as cheap as possible, soon-to-be pilot, the Avistar, Tower 40, and many others are just as good to learn with.
I know I'm gonna get blasted for the next statement, and I know there are those FEW that can and have taught themselves to fly. But, unless you're really that darn good, beginners should always seek out and get training from experienced pilots. If they're a qualified instructor, all the better.
Ok, I'll put away the soapbox, now.
Ah, the ever present trainer discussions. First, let me preface these statements by saying, "I love my NexSTAR".
I trained and soloed on it. Damaged and repaired it, ( I hate saying the word 'crash'). And, have begun modifying it.
It's now a taildragger, and eventually will be outfitted with floats and a different wing. She's big, floats around the sky like a giant butterfly,
and can "kick it" to a point.
However, when someone asks about what plane I fly, inevitably the next question out of their mouth is, "Should they get one of those?"
After referencing the same info as above. I tell them the price differences of say an Avistar or Tower 40 trainer. My big objection to the NxeSTAR,
is all the "training extras" that Hobbico uses to market the NexSTAR as a "Teach yourself to fly" airplane. And, the extra cost involved by adding these to a great airframe. Even, close attention to "reviews" of the NexSTAR reveal the problems with the AFS system. Most beginners will go out after work/school, and try to fly with the AFS. The problem arises when the sun has descended far enough to give the AFS sensor an incorrect light reading and cause the plane to try and "correct" itself. When in reality what it does is fly in a different manner than the beginner expextcs it to. And, the beginner doesn't understand enough to know what is or isn't correct flight characteristics. If the NexSTAR were available without the wing droops, air brakes and AFS, perhaps at a slightly lower price, I'd be talking it up like no other. It is a great RTF or ARF plane.
I surprised a couple of people at the field on training night, last night, by assembling a beginners "New in the box", still in the plastic, NexSTAR. Not a big deal, until we spent a few minutes with the beginner, adjusted the elevator and ailerons a tad ,started the engine a couple of times, tweaked the HSN a little to get a decent transition, and then the plane took to the air under the confident guidance of one of our wonderful instructors. The beginner had that surprised-proud-scared-cautious look on his face. Oh, by the way, we disconnected the AFS, removed the wing droops, and did not install the air brakes. When the beginner took control with the buddy box, he made a couple of really nice circuits around the pattern.
If someone wants a larger than most trainers plane, and can afford the extra cost, the NexSTAR is a great trainer. But, for the budget minded, want to start as cheap as possible, soon-to-be pilot, the Avistar, Tower 40, and many others are just as good to learn with.
I know I'm gonna get blasted for the next statement, and I know there are those FEW that can and have taught themselves to fly. But, unless you're really that darn good, beginners should always seek out and get training from experienced pilots. If they're a qualified instructor, all the better.
Ok, I'll put away the soapbox, now.
05-25-2007 | 02:00 PM
#34
Senior Member
My Feedback: (4)
RE: Industry ethics?
I don't see why anyone would blast you for telling beginners what they SHOULD do!
I grew up in this hobby and for every story I have heard about someone "Successfully" (IE, only 4 or 5 crashes) learning to fly on their own, there are at least 300 stories about someone who THOUGHT they could do it, but didn't
I grew up in this hobby and for every story I have heard about someone "Successfully" (IE, only 4 or 5 crashes) learning to fly on their own, there are at least 300 stories about someone who THOUGHT they could do it, but didn't
05-25-2007 | 02:05 PM
#35
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From: raymond,
WA
RE: Industry ethics?
ORIGINAL: MinnFlyer
Now, can I sell anybody a Salsa maker?
Now, can I sell anybody a Salsa maker?
No sir, I will respectfully pass on the salsa maker. I also noticed that not only did they chop slice and dice the stuff to fit as mentioned before and as you already mentioned negating the need for the pruduct, but then they go on to say it is easier than doing it by hand. now im not the smartest cookie in the salsa maker but how is chopping an onion easier than chopping an onion I dont get it. and so that whole premise seems a little like a lie.
05-25-2007 | 02:38 PM
#37
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From: Omaha,
NE
RE: Industry ethics?
ORIGINAL: bruce88123
You didn't mention charging the batteries. Hope that got done.
ORIGINAL: N429EM
So, the instructor put on a quick charge, and off they went.
Good catch, Bruce. I wasn't going to mention it and make the guy sound like a complete noob. At least he did pull out the manual and read through it. Even if he didn't understand most of it.
And, before anyone asks, Yes we did a range check, too.
05-25-2007 | 03:41 PM
#40
Senior Member
My Feedback: (4)
RE: Industry ethics?
Is it as good as [link=http://www.youtube.com/p.swf?video_id=H03PyhbRjSY&eurl=http%3A//www.google.com/search%3Fhl%3Den%26q%3DIt%2527s%2BLog%2521%26btnG% 3DGoogle%2BSearch&iurl=http%3A//img.youtube.com/vi/H03PyhbRjSY/2.jpg&t=OEgsToPDskJxTK2EOZPaAcxt_gixWOv6]Log?[/link]
05-25-2007 | 03:54 PM
#42
RE: Industry ethics?
Fishing lure companies don't make their lures to catch fish. You can do that with a worm and a hook. Fishing lure companies design their lures to catch fisherman. Thus endeth our lesson! 
05-25-2007 | 04:26 PM
#43
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From: Galloway,
NJ
RE: Industry ethics?
I have worked for or helped out at an LHS for the last 20 years, and I have to say that being honest with your customers is
the best way to do business. Lets take planes as our example (we are in the plane forum).
Customer comes in and says "I want to learn to fly RC airplanes, How about that 45% carden yak on the wall".
Now ethics comes into play, yes I can sell it to him and make $3000 today or I can do right by him.
So I sell him a trainer. ARF with everything for $350 (I did say LHS not Tower) now for the next month or so
I sell him fuel and props and the occasional odds and ends. Now he comes back and says Sport Plane.
Ok we go Tiger2 with 46ax and some servos and RX for $400. Then props and fuel and stuff for a few months.
well after another 2 planes he decides to buy that 45% yak. At this point I have made $1200 + and he
buys a yak for $3000. And has a 75% chance of keeping it in one piece. I can sleep at night and I have a good
customer that refers friends.
Is it that hard to wait a while and take the small sales that lead to a big sale. And most likely at no time do I have to sell
any customer a Mustang or Raptor PTS unless they definitely want it. The maufacturers don't care about ETHICS, but
a good LHS should be able to reccomend the proper equipment to keep the customer happy and coming back.
the best way to do business. Lets take planes as our example (we are in the plane forum).
Customer comes in and says "I want to learn to fly RC airplanes, How about that 45% carden yak on the wall".
Now ethics comes into play, yes I can sell it to him and make $3000 today or I can do right by him.
So I sell him a trainer. ARF with everything for $350 (I did say LHS not Tower) now for the next month or so
I sell him fuel and props and the occasional odds and ends. Now he comes back and says Sport Plane.
Ok we go Tiger2 with 46ax and some servos and RX for $400. Then props and fuel and stuff for a few months.
well after another 2 planes he decides to buy that 45% yak. At this point I have made $1200 + and he
buys a yak for $3000. And has a 75% chance of keeping it in one piece. I can sleep at night and I have a good
customer that refers friends.
Is it that hard to wait a while and take the small sales that lead to a big sale. And most likely at no time do I have to sell
any customer a Mustang or Raptor PTS unless they definitely want it. The maufacturers don't care about ETHICS, but
a good LHS should be able to reccomend the proper equipment to keep the customer happy and coming back.
05-25-2007 | 08:49 PM
#45
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From: Galloway,
NJ
RE: Industry ethics?
ORIGINAL: bigedmustafa
Don't judge your LHS too harshly. I was sold an Aerobird Challenger as my first plane, and it was not a pleasant experience. I later discovered that almost none of the staff at the LHS were pilots, they all ran RC buggies or trucks. They were told that the Aerobird Challenger was a great beginners' plane, and they believed it to be true. Experienced RC pilots often know volumes more about the aircraft-related products at the LHS than the staff does.
Don't judge your LHS too harshly. I was sold an Aerobird Challenger as my first plane, and it was not a pleasant experience. I later discovered that almost none of the staff at the LHS were pilots, they all ran RC buggies or trucks. They were told that the Aerobird Challenger was a great beginners' plane, and they believed it to be true. Experienced RC pilots often know volumes more about the aircraft-related products at the LHS than the staff does.
know the difference between a trainer and a corsair except that on the box they look different. But isn't it possible to
train these people or ask them to research the products they are selling, so they can make an educated assumption
as to what the customer needs or should get based on their experience level.
As an employee of an LHS I wasn't allowed to help out an airplane customer unless it was one of the regulars who
had no questions. After a while of listening and learning from the owner and our resident airplane guru, I too was
able to make good reccomendations on planes engines and equipment, Even though I had never flown. But still I was
honest to all my customers and started the converstaion with "I have no firsthand knowledge of this but the owner
or guru would reccomend XXXX product"
The LHS that I buy from now actually fits my idea as an ideal place. Plenty of kits, arfs, and rtfs. and when you ask the guy
behind the counter for advice he doesn't automatically try to sell the 40% edge on the ceiling, He gives a realistic answer
even if he knows it's not the answer you want.
05-25-2007 | 09:48 PM
#46
RE: Industry ethics?
I absolutely agree that good training should be a given, but it's not a perfect world. My local hobby store has its strengths and weaknesses, and after I bought the Aerobird and struggled to get it to fly, I began educating myself as a consumer. Had I done more research before popping $130 or so for that Aerobird Challenger, I might have steered myself in a different direction to start with.
The ironic part is that my only LHS is a Hobbytown USA and they carry the Hobbytown RTF Trainer package that Hobbico makes for them and they sell it for $229.99 with a Futaba 4YBF radio, an O.S. .40 LA, and a Hobbytown USA branded version of the SuperStar .40 glow ARF. If they'd have just pointed me toward their own house brand trainer and given me the name of one of the local flying clubs, I'd have spent the extra money and been much happier. The $130 I wasted on the Aerobird Challenger would have completely outfitted my $40 Hobbico flight box with a power panel, electric starter, battery, fuel pump, glow starter and all the niceties.
Thanks to them sticking that Aerobird up my a55, I ordered my Nexstar Select RTF and all of my field equipment from Tower. I know now that I need to know about what I'm purchasing before I go to the LHS, because they don't. They only sell me what I ask them to.
It's funny that the ideal hobby stores can't seem to make it. Bud's Hobby in Council Bluffs, IA was the kind of place where you could walk in and count on the owner for expert advise and educated opinions. He was a skilled RC pilot and an instructor for the local club in CB. I bought a plane off of E-Bay one time and it arrived with a broken tail assembly. I bought the tail components from Tower Hobbies, but didn't have the building skills yet to remove the old tail myself. Bud told me to bring it by his shop and he installed the new tail for me at no charge. I took 90% of my hobby business straight to his door for the next 18 months, right up until he sold the property and closed up shop.
People would go in there and talk to Bud like he was their bartender or high school counselor or something. They'd hang out in his shop and drink his coffee (no charge) and eat his M&Ms (no charge) and get his advice on planes and engines and radios and all kinds of other things. When they wanted to actually buy something, they'd mail order it to save $5 or beat Bud up on price because his ARFs were $3 more than the cheapest mail order place on the planet. Too many folks forget all about customer service if they can save 10 cents.
The ironic part is that my only LHS is a Hobbytown USA and they carry the Hobbytown RTF Trainer package that Hobbico makes for them and they sell it for $229.99 with a Futaba 4YBF radio, an O.S. .40 LA, and a Hobbytown USA branded version of the SuperStar .40 glow ARF. If they'd have just pointed me toward their own house brand trainer and given me the name of one of the local flying clubs, I'd have spent the extra money and been much happier. The $130 I wasted on the Aerobird Challenger would have completely outfitted my $40 Hobbico flight box with a power panel, electric starter, battery, fuel pump, glow starter and all the niceties.
Thanks to them sticking that Aerobird up my a55, I ordered my Nexstar Select RTF and all of my field equipment from Tower. I know now that I need to know about what I'm purchasing before I go to the LHS, because they don't. They only sell me what I ask them to.
It's funny that the ideal hobby stores can't seem to make it. Bud's Hobby in Council Bluffs, IA was the kind of place where you could walk in and count on the owner for expert advise and educated opinions. He was a skilled RC pilot and an instructor for the local club in CB. I bought a plane off of E-Bay one time and it arrived with a broken tail assembly. I bought the tail components from Tower Hobbies, but didn't have the building skills yet to remove the old tail myself. Bud told me to bring it by his shop and he installed the new tail for me at no charge. I took 90% of my hobby business straight to his door for the next 18 months, right up until he sold the property and closed up shop.
People would go in there and talk to Bud like he was their bartender or high school counselor or something. They'd hang out in his shop and drink his coffee (no charge) and eat his M&Ms (no charge) and get his advice on planes and engines and radios and all kinds of other things. When they wanted to actually buy something, they'd mail order it to save $5 or beat Bud up on price because his ARFs were $3 more than the cheapest mail order place on the planet. Too many folks forget all about customer service if they can save 10 cents.
05-25-2007 | 09:55 PM
#47
RE: Industry ethics?
I hate LHS's that push on you whatever has been selling slow or has been on the shelf too long. Sold to you by a car/truck kid who knows a little less than zip about planes. Those things with wings, right?
Went in tonight for balancing weights. Zip in stock. Asked the kid "Got any in the back room?" Nah. ON order? Oh, maybe they're in the shipment that came in today that nobody bothered to open. DUH!! Yep, there they were. Still had NO 12x5 props in stock OR on order that he knew of.
Went in tonight for balancing weights. Zip in stock. Asked the kid "Got any in the back room?" Nah. ON order? Oh, maybe they're in the shipment that came in today that nobody bothered to open. DUH!! Yep, there they were. Still had NO 12x5 props in stock OR on order that he knew of.
05-26-2007 | 12:54 PM
#48
RE: Industry ethics?
I have worked with a hobby shop at one time in my life. It was great fun and I enjoyed it thoroughly up until they went under from several reasons. One was mail order, the other was bad location. I was the airplane guy, and I knew nothing of cars when I went in. But I learned the breands, who made what, what would work with what and I could help with engine and radio problems from airplane experience. But when it came to which was better than what and why, I didn't have a clue. Still don't, but I told the customers that upfront, and refered their questions to the resident car guru who was there full time. Decent employees who are willing to learn are hard to come by I guess because I, too, have seen far too many people misdirected because of dumb employees. Not only at hobby shops but other places where the employees really need to know their stuff but don't.
05-26-2007 | 03:10 PM
#49
RE: Industry ethics?
Don't laugh at "Mr. Tea". The company that produced the original "Mr Coffee" machine marketed a "Mr Tea" many years later. Never bought one, but when I saw it at the stores I was reminded of SNL and "Mr. Tea". Who's selling the " Bass-o-matic" now? "Great Bass".
ORIGINAL: mclina
Remember "Mr. Tea" from an old Saturday Night Live ad. All you do is place an empty mug with a teabag below the device, pour hot water into the top of the device, and you get a fresh hot cup of tea.
I still use mine every day.
ORIGINAL: MinnFlyer
Now, can I sell anybody a Salsa maker?
Now, can I sell anybody a Salsa maker?
Remember "Mr. Tea" from an old Saturday Night Live ad. All you do is place an empty mug with a teabag below the device, pour hot water into the top of the device, and you get a fresh hot cup of tea.
I still use mine every day.
05-27-2007 | 07:22 PM
#50
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From: Corona, CA
RE: Industry ethics?
I just can't stop myself from replying to this thread. (Please bear with me here).
I have been in this hobby for less than 2 years. I have flown SOMETHING with wings about 6 days a week for all of that time. I have hundreds of hours on the sticks and I have been through my share of planes and accessories. I fly gas, glow and electric, (if you count foam). I have had dealings with several companies, some good, some bad.
I hope it's not tabu here on RCU to mention ONLY the companies I have found to have EXTREMELY high standards for customer satisfaction. Most of you will notice that I am not mentioning some VERY popular hobby e-tailers in this post. I am only giving kudos to those companies who go above and beyond what is accepted as 'good' customer service.
It's a short list:
http://www.chargerrc.com
http://Fromeco.org
http://temeculavalleyhobbies.com
I have found that smaller companies like these take a much more personal approach. Yes, you will pay a bit more but when there is a problem or a misunderstanding, you will not be just another invoice number. I buy EVERYTHING from these three companies, even my gassers, DA engines, props, batteries, chargers, glue, servos...EVERYTHING that I will not or CANnot find used.
I think companies like these deserve a mention in a thread such as this one.
I have been in this hobby for less than 2 years. I have flown SOMETHING with wings about 6 days a week for all of that time. I have hundreds of hours on the sticks and I have been through my share of planes and accessories. I fly gas, glow and electric, (if you count foam). I have had dealings with several companies, some good, some bad.
I hope it's not tabu here on RCU to mention ONLY the companies I have found to have EXTREMELY high standards for customer satisfaction. Most of you will notice that I am not mentioning some VERY popular hobby e-tailers in this post. I am only giving kudos to those companies who go above and beyond what is accepted as 'good' customer service.
It's a short list:
http://www.chargerrc.com
http://Fromeco.org
http://temeculavalleyhobbies.com
I have found that smaller companies like these take a much more personal approach. Yes, you will pay a bit more but when there is a problem or a misunderstanding, you will not be just another invoice number. I buy EVERYTHING from these three companies, even my gassers, DA engines, props, batteries, chargers, glue, servos...EVERYTHING that I will not or CANnot find used.
I think companies like these deserve a mention in a thread such as this one.
