Landing
07-25-2007, 06:07 PM
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Landing
I have an Alpha 40, and I can land it, barley. It always wants to bouce a few times before it stays on the ground. I even bought the low bounce wheels. Can you convert it into a tail dragger?
07-25-2007, 06:14 PM
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RE: Landing
Converting it to a taildragger is possible but that won't help with the bounce. You need to learn a proper approach and flare at the right time to settle the main wheels gently on the ground. Sounds easy but it takes alot of practice. Even the experienced ones still bounce sometimes.
07-25-2007, 06:15 PM
#3
RE: Landing
You can but it would be much easier to learn to land properly. Good chance you are still too fast at touchdown or striking the nosewheel first. Correct whichever problem you have and all will be fine. I have many bounceless landings on Alphas during my instructing. Get your engine idle to a minimum reliable speed and perhaps try a flatter pitched prop.
Taildraggers will bounce too BTW.
Taildraggers will bounce too BTW.
07-25-2007, 06:19 PM
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RE: Landing
you would be surprised how slow that alpha will fly and still be stable. try it with a good bit of altitude and see how slow you can fly before it stalls. mine almost seems like i could pull over and park on cloud 9 or something since it will fly so slow. once you are comfortable with flying it nice and slow like that, you will be amazed how nice your landings can be.
07-25-2007, 06:20 PM
#5
RE: Landing
Bruce and Skeeter hit the nail on the head. Converting it to a taildragger won't stop it from boucning. The only way to stop the bounce is to learn to land properly, or just practice your landings until you can do them without bouncing. On your next trip to the field try flying a couple of tanks of fuel doing nothing but touch and go landings and see if you don't start to improve. This is just like everything else in our hobby, you have to practice to get good at it.
Hope this helps
Ken
Hope this helps
Ken
07-25-2007, 06:46 PM
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RE: Landing
I bounced my landings almost all the time and slowly they got better. One day a fellow club member told me I was holding my flair too long. Once I made a concious effort to let my elevator go to nuetral when the mains touched down the bouncing went away.
I seldom bounce now, so learn when and how much to flair and also when to let go of the flair.
I seldom bounce now, so learn when and how much to flair and also when to let go of the flair.
07-25-2007, 07:20 PM
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RE: Landing
ORIGINAL: Hossbog
I have an Alpha 40, and I can land it, barley. It always wants to bouce a few times before it stays on the ground. I even bought the low bounce wheels. Can you convert it into a tail dragger?
I have an Alpha 40, and I can land it, barley. It always wants to bouce a few times before it stays on the ground. I even bought the low bounce wheels. Can you convert it into a tail dragger?
Good Flying[8D]
07-25-2007, 08:20 PM
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RE: Landing
The secret to not bouncing on landing is to make sure the plane is sinking toward the runway with a slightly nose up attitude during the approach. This will require the engine to be properly tuned to idle down, particularly with a floater like the alpha. With the nose up attitude, when the plane hits the runway, the nose will drop. This will change the incidence of the wing, and the plane will lose its remaining lift, staying on the runway.
Practice, practice, practice.
Good Luck.
Brad
Practice, practice, practice.
Good Luck.
Brad
07-25-2007, 08:24 PM
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RE: Landing
I agree with the practice part, havn't soloed yet but i've prolly made 30 landings, first couple bounced pretty bad once i tuned the engine idle speed down and figured out the flare timming all is good now.
best of luck
best of luck
07-25-2007, 09:09 PM
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RE: Landing
Learn to work the throttle. You'd be surprised what a slight blip of the throttle will do to smooth out a landing just prior to touch-down, only inches off the ground. Even when you get a bounce try blipping the throttle just once after the bounce and see what it does. Guaranteed to put a smile on your face and make you look like an old pro. When I say blip I mean to open the throttle quickly 3, 4 maybe 5 clicks and then immediately right back to idle. Sometimes you have to blip the throttle more than once. Practice will teach you how much and when. It amazes me to see r/c pilots that only know two throttle positions, fly (wot) and land (idle). Learn to work the throttle! The key here is not to use so much throttle that you increase the altitude, but rather you simply stretch the glide. If you do get a slight increase in altitude, just let it settle in, but don't forget to continue to work the throttle. 
Now go out and do about 1000 touch and go's. 
Now go out and do about 1000 touch and go's.
07-25-2007, 10:40 PM
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RE: Landing
Practice, practice, and when you think you have it, practice some more. I am self taught. Went flying this past weekend by myself and flew five flights with my trainer. Probably spent 80% of the time doing touch and goes. Then started flying my Pulse XT. Flew about ten times. Spent about 30 - 40% of the time doing touch and goes. And glad I did. On about the sixth flight, I ran out of fuel and made a perfect dead stick landing, first one with the Pulse and my third all together. You will learn a lot if you listen to these guys. I have, and it has really paid off. Have fun! Oh, and like ptmac3 says, learn to work the throttle (unless of course, you don't pay attention and run out of fuel like some guys
). That made a big difference in my landings.
). That made a big difference in my landings.
07-26-2007, 05:53 AM
#12
RE: Landing
You've been given many tips and the best one in my opinion is practice practice practice.
Also, learn the throttle and also make sure the throws are correct. I have high rates for when I want to fly aerobatics but switch them to low rates for landing.
A nice smooth approach then cut the throttle when you are just a few inches above the runway and let her slowly touch down.
Also, learn the throttle and also make sure the throws are correct. I have high rates for when I want to fly aerobatics but switch them to low rates for landing.
A nice smooth approach then cut the throttle when you are just a few inches above the runway and let her slowly touch down.
07-26-2007, 09:56 PM
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RE: Landing
I once saw on a previous post that involved a bouncing 4* to nose over straight down WOT from 100 feet and it would'nt bounce at all. But really for me it took about 5 gallons of touch and go's on CALM afternoons. I'm a slow learner I guess.
07-26-2007, 10:44 PM
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RE: Landing
I am not familiar with what landing gear the alpha has. However i did purchase a tower trainer 40 for my dad. I did the maiden and for the life of me could not stop it from bouncing. I slowed it down, flaired perfectley, aaaannnnd BOING, BOIng, BOing, boing.
I stiffer gear fixed that.
Other than that is sounds like your either not flairing or flairing to much. Trainers have very low wing loadings so when you tough down they still can pop up again.
Good Luck
I stiffer gear fixed that.
Other than that is sounds like your either not flairing or flairing to much. Trainers have very low wing loadings so when you tough down they still can pop up again.
Good Luck
07-26-2007, 11:01 PM
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RE: Landing
lot a good advice here... check out AMA's web site and look in the "primary flight" area where there are lesson on how and WHY to teach landing techniques. it is quite enlightening. remember with a trainer on approach throttle contols altitude and elvator controls speed.
bouncing could be because the plane is sinking to fast ( add the blips of throttle ) or you have let the nose down and built up to much speed (keep the fuse flat and back off throttle to allow it to sink...... it is fun to BLIP the throttle it sounds a lot like an old radial engine plane landing.
your are on the edge of some real fun cause when this skill is learned you will be able to do sweet and slow touch and goes!
HAVE FUN[8D]
bouncing could be because the plane is sinking to fast ( add the blips of throttle ) or you have let the nose down and built up to much speed (keep the fuse flat and back off throttle to allow it to sink...... it is fun to BLIP the throttle it sounds a lot like an old radial engine plane landing.
your are on the edge of some real fun cause when this skill is learned you will be able to do sweet and slow touch and goes!
HAVE FUN[8D]
07-26-2007, 11:42 PM
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RE: Landing
Here's a tip to reduce your bouncing...
Bend your rear wire gear down so the plane has a slight nose-down attitude. 1/4" is fine.
The rear wire gear is probably sagging and allowing the front wheel to hit first on landing. With a slight nose-down rake, when the front wheel touches the runway, the negative wing incidence will help you "stick" to the runway.
Bend your rear wire gear down so the plane has a slight nose-down attitude. 1/4" is fine.
The rear wire gear is probably sagging and allowing the front wheel to hit first on landing. With a slight nose-down rake, when the front wheel touches the runway, the negative wing incidence will help you "stick" to the runway.
07-26-2007, 11:55 PM
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RE: Landing
if the nose gear is hitting first that is all about improper flare/approach. has nothing to do with the main gear legs.
You just need to slow the plane down. but not too much or it will stall and bounce again. My bet is that you are going too slow and what you are getting is a stall just above the runway and it is dropping like a 6 lb rock causing the bounce. your approach should be above stall but still slow enough to land. full scale approach is generally flown at 1.5 times stall speed witht he extra speed bled off in the flare. so try that. fly the approach a little above stall, flare and cut throttle to kill the speed when she begins to settle in towards the runway, let it come down don't fight it but don't force it either. it will land itself your job is to keep the prop out of the dirt. hold the nose but dont fight the sink.
You just need to slow the plane down. but not too much or it will stall and bounce again. My bet is that you are going too slow and what you are getting is a stall just above the runway and it is dropping like a 6 lb rock causing the bounce. your approach should be above stall but still slow enough to land. full scale approach is generally flown at 1.5 times stall speed witht he extra speed bled off in the flare. so try that. fly the approach a little above stall, flare and cut throttle to kill the speed when she begins to settle in towards the runway, let it come down don't fight it but don't force it either. it will land itself your job is to keep the prop out of the dirt. hold the nose but dont fight the sink.
07-27-2007, 12:20 AM
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RE: Landing
Then I guess I'm having trouble visualizing it. When you say sagging I am picturing the mains being more squat than they should be. If that is what you meant then flying a high angle of attack like you would have in a flare would keep the nose wheel high and off the ground. It would be possible to land with no mains at all and only a nose wheel and not bounce.
If you meant that the mains are sagging such that they are lower than the nose wheel then they would touch down first any way. The point is that proper elevator/throttle control can and will keep the nose high. If the nose is coming down first then it is either way to fast or way to steep. (flaps would allow steep and slow) in either case slow down and pick the nose up. it will land bounce free. 17 yrs flying RC and a handfull of hours in full scale just tells me that if the nose hits first its because of pilot error. too fast and not sagging gear whether the gear is sagging convex or concave the nose must be kept up.
If you meant that the mains are sagging such that they are lower than the nose wheel then they would touch down first any way. The point is that proper elevator/throttle control can and will keep the nose high. If the nose is coming down first then it is either way to fast or way to steep. (flaps would allow steep and slow) in either case slow down and pick the nose up. it will land bounce free. 17 yrs flying RC and a handfull of hours in full scale just tells me that if the nose hits first its because of pilot error. too fast and not sagging gear whether the gear is sagging convex or concave the nose must be kept up.
07-27-2007, 12:47 AM
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RE: Landing
Most trainers have flimsy wire gear that bends if you look at it wrong. This protects the plane during rough landings; But also begin to "splay" easily. Correct this by bending the gear back where it belongs. A slight nose down rake can help make ok landings into good landings.
It's pretty simple really. When the front wheel touches the runway, you don't want the wing to still be flying ie..positive angle of attack.
It will not make up for improper landing approaches, lack of throttle control etc... but it can help you reduce the "Trainer Tango".
It's pretty simple really. When the front wheel touches the runway, you don't want the wing to still be flying ie..positive angle of attack.
It will not make up for improper landing approaches, lack of throttle control etc... but it can help you reduce the "Trainer Tango".
07-27-2007, 10:24 AM
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RE: Landing
I completely agree warhwk
If the rear gear is flimsy and sagging, especially whith those cheap wirery gears, it can be impossible to flare. What happens is as when you touch down your plane know has a positive angle of attack like a tail dragger. This however can't be avoided as a result of the gear. We all know what would happen if we did a 3 point landing on tail dragger with a very tall main gear. The plane would want to fly back in the air. So we touch down with the front gears first and keep the tail perpindicular to the ground untill we slow down and let the tail come down to the ground. Again, like I said above, a stiff aluminum gear fixed this.
If the rear gear is flimsy and sagging, especially whith those cheap wirery gears, it can be impossible to flare. What happens is as when you touch down your plane know has a positive angle of attack like a tail dragger. This however can't be avoided as a result of the gear. We all know what would happen if we did a 3 point landing on tail dragger with a very tall main gear.
The plane would want to fly back in the air. So we touch down with the front gears first and keep the tail perpindicular to the ground untill we slow down and let the tail come down to the ground. Again, like I said above, a stiff aluminum gear fixed this.
07-27-2007, 11:41 AM
#23
RE: Landing
I don't have tall mains but 3-point landings are easy enough on any tail dragger. I've done them on many models and on full scale as well. It's all just a matter of correct speed and attitude at touchdown. Helps a lot if you don't drop it the last foot or 2 though. Some full scales are wheel landed because the pilot gets a better runway view until touchdown. Always nice to know where you are landing.
Some full scales are wheel landed because the pilot gets a better runway view until touchdown. Always nice to know where you are landing.
07-27-2007, 01:33 PM
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RE: Landing
But Cambo, the flare is not a function of landing. it is a flight profile in the approach. You can and should flare regardless of gear configuration. The purpose of the flare is to slow down the rate of decent and the airspeed to allow for a gentle touch down. It is done while in the air a few feet. your undercarriage is irrelevant to the flare.
As for tail draggers a Three point landing is preferred because Speed is controlled with the elevator, it also controls AoA (this is how the speed is controlled after all) so A three point landing is always going to be at a lower air and ground speed then a two point landing when given that the plane is the same with the same weather conditions etc. in other words here now this very moment if you were flying your 4* it would land three point at a walk two point at a jog. Sometimes as was mentioned in Full scale pilots will land on the mains to allow for visibility, however that said, three point landings will not result in a bounce unless you smack the ground fairly hard. But all the while I am talking about a nice smooth landing not pan cakeing it down
As for tail draggers a Three point landing is preferred because Speed is controlled with the elevator, it also controls AoA (this is how the speed is controlled after all) so A three point landing is always going to be at a lower air and ground speed then a two point landing when given that the plane is the same with the same weather conditions etc. in other words here now this very moment if you were flying your 4* it would land three point at a walk two point at a jog. Sometimes as was mentioned in Full scale pilots will land on the mains to allow for visibility, however that said, three point landings will not result in a bounce unless you smack the ground fairly hard. But all the while I am talking about a nice smooth landing not pan cakeing it down
07-27-2007, 01:54 PM
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RE: Landing
ORIGINAL: superflea
But Cambo, the flare is not a function of landing. it is a flight profile in the approach. You can and should flare regardless of gear configuration. The purpose of the flare is to slow down the rate of decent and the airspeed to allow for a gentle touch down. It is done while in the air a few feet. your undercarriage is irrelevant to the flare.
As for tail draggers a Three point landing is preferred because Speed is controlled with the elevator, it also controls AoA (this is how the speed is controlled after all) so A three point landing is always going to be at a lower air and ground speed then a two point landing when given that the plane is the same with the same weather conditions etc. in other words here now this very moment if you were flying your 4* it would land three point at a walk two point at a jog. Sometimes as was mentioned in Full scale pilots will land on the mains to allow for visibility, however that said, three point landings will not result in a bounce unless you smack the ground fairly hard. But all the while I am talking about a nice smooth landing not pan cakeing it down
But Cambo, the flare is not a function of landing. it is a flight profile in the approach. You can and should flare regardless of gear configuration. The purpose of the flare is to slow down the rate of decent and the airspeed to allow for a gentle touch down. It is done while in the air a few feet. your undercarriage is irrelevant to the flare.
As for tail draggers a Three point landing is preferred because Speed is controlled with the elevator, it also controls AoA (this is how the speed is controlled after all) so A three point landing is always going to be at a lower air and ground speed then a two point landing when given that the plane is the same with the same weather conditions etc. in other words here now this very moment if you were flying your 4* it would land three point at a walk two point at a jog. Sometimes as was mentioned in Full scale pilots will land on the mains to allow for visibility, however that said, three point landings will not result in a bounce unless you smack the ground fairly hard. But all the while I am talking about a nice smooth landing not pan cakeing it down