Someone at my field said that I could probably skip the whole second plane. I soloed realy quickly, and I've already started trying aerobatics my trainer can't held to. The guy said because of my age, and the quickness i progressed on my trainer, I could skip the 4* 60 or other second planes. What do you all think of this? I mean what are the unique features of the second plane? Like for a trainer its stability, slow landing. He said if I work all winter on a second plane on my simulator, I could start up next summer on a third plane with shorter throws.

Basically, Im asking what is learned on a second plane, that couldnt be done on a simulator, and makes it necessary to have? The guy said if I work hard on the simulator, it will save me alot of money in the long run, because thats one less plane (Yet, its one more plane if the "Third" type plane finds itself in the trash.)

Shorty,

Personally I wouldn't skip the second plane. There is a lot to be learned from the second plane, and if you jump to a third you'll find yourself way behind the plane. Based on your signature if all you've been flying is an Alpha 60, the by no means do you want to jump up to a third plane. There is a lot of difference between the Alpha with the huge flat bottom wing and a more spirited second trainer. Check out [link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_4537845/tm.htm]RCKen's list of intermediate planes.[/link] You also need to ask your self, are you ready to handle a P-51 or other similar plane - say a .60 powered 8 pound monster that flies 120 mph and lands at 40 mph and will gladly bight the hand that feeds it as soon as you become the least bit complacent?

I think if you ask a good instructor the answer you'll get is to fly the secondary trainer first, then move to the third plane as the third plane.

Just my2 cents worth.

Hogflyer

Get A hanger 9 Pulse.....Great sport aerobatics.....can be toned down & made into a very gentle flyer if needed. very cool looking too!

Well said hogflyer, I made the mistake of moving to a third plane too fast. It was a Pheonix Strega (P51 style) was not ready for the tip stalling and faster landings. The farther up the scale you go, the less forgiving the airframe. You have to start flying the airplane with your second one, ie. the planes become go where you point them, no self righting capabilities like with a trainer. Don't make the mistake I made and try to run when you've just learned how to walk. Besides, you'll be missing a whole gruop of fun flying airplanes, that will teach you alot. Good luck!!

Shorty,
ask your instructor if he would care to provide a test plane to see if skipping the second plane
was a good idea. If he is that confident in you skills he will have no problem lending you an
advanced type plane.

I would take the avice being offered. I wish i would have. I too was a fast learner. I soloed
on my second day. I moved to a low wing trainer within a month, My third plane was a custom
built Tiger 60 and now I have 2 2meter pattern planes. at my last contest I was very nervous and
got disoriented with my ailerons during landing approach and almost planted my high dollar
pattern plane. Moving too fast makes you skip vital lessons. I almost learned the hard way.
I was at the field the next weekend with the trainer shooting touch and goes so I could regain my
confidence after my near fatal (to my wallet) mistake.

I'd still look at getting something like a 4*, GP Rapture, etc. Even after you've been at it a while, you'll want a simple little sport plane to toss around the sky now and then.

I'll second that!

I love that!

the sim is a sim not the real deal..Don't skip on your 2nd plane..I still fly a trainer for fun..
can you fly the pattern inverted with your trainer? are 95 percent of your landings bounce free? now is the time to fine tune your flying skills...don't skip ahead it might save that "3 rd" plane from being your first total loss

I blew thru my 4 * at first. Took a radio hit after a dozen or so flights, so moved into a Twist while I was repairing the 4*.
RCKen had come up to MinnFlyrs for a FunFly , and he flew in, so he had no plane. He flew the 4* several flights , and proved to me the second plane is far more capable than I thought.
I told him I was going to build a fun plane , He told me, You have your fun plane right here and he was right. Have flown many , many flights since , and would have made a big mistake by bypassing the second plane.

I'll stick to the 4* then. THanks

Nothing works like experience. The more you get the better off you are. Burn fuel. Period. Get used to how your trainer behaves and move up to a slightly more capable plane. There are so many planes that are 'cool' but are not very forgiving at all, no matter how much you try to tame them down. Remember, if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it must be a duck.

Move up slowly and fly what you have. Burn fuel. I can't say it enough. Chris said it, and I was his instructor. I watched him move up quickly, but he was more capable than most. He learned that the only way to gain experience is to fly.. fly.. fly. Burn fuel. Once things become second nature to you, and you have pretty much found yourself capable of putting what you are flying through all it's paces, and if you ask the pro's, there are not many that have reached that level, then you are ready to move up.

That does not mean that you cannot move up earlier, than that, but keep flying the lower capable planes, while learning to fly the ones with higher capabilities, but be careful how high that level is.

The last thing you want to do is find something that is beyond your capabilities to keep ahead of the maneuvers. Once that happens, well, make sure you bring that large plastic trash bag along with you.

You will also find that the hobby offers more because you are learning more and getting more experience and polished.

Very True...you should be learning/figuring out something new with each gallon of fuel.

Shorty, you don`t have to go with a 4* as a second plane. There a several others that are good also.
I went with the 4* , because after researching the second planes, it had the best overall rating. And I like taildraggers. It`s not as cool looking as some of the others, but it is strong and easy to repair. I know, I`ve smucked mine a few times .lol
Good luck

Allot of good advice so far. I was in the same boat as you. Fast burner, learned quick and really started trashing my trainer. I would end each flight with 3-4 broken rubber bands. My second plane was a Hobbico Extra 300s. Not the most forgiving plane but I took it slow with low rates and I put Hundreds of flights on the old girl before she gave up the ghost. Take your time, be patient and you will have no problems!

Jeech.. and Extra 300 as a second plane. You sure jumped in!!! But taking it slow and easy and realizing that the plane can probably out-fly the pilot is a good attitude to take. And, as many may not be ready to admit, even some trainers are more capable than we realize.

My second was a Tiger 60. It is like a low wing trainer, but very capable. The size of the 60 size plane really helped out with my development. It was easy to see it when I was doing various things, especially during landing. Watching the small inputs and how they worked the plane during the landing was pretty neat. And it helped me realize, even more than the trainer, (mainly because, like most student pilots, I was busy just flying and landing and not taking the time to watch the reaction to inputs) how minor inputs caused immediate and functional results. It was amazing.

We all learn differently and at different rates. We try to fly without damaging our planes. More often than not, we succeed. So, we try to give advice based on our experiences. Hopefully, we can help prevent someone's loss of a fine and 'cool' airplane.

Is there a plane that anyone suggests that might be in the middle of a second and third plane? Or, should i just stick the the 4* 60 or tiger 60, which I had planned on getting.

Ok guys, something here has been bothering me a little bit. I'm talking about the terminology being used, "second plane" and "third plane" to be specific. The plane that you buy AFTER your trainer is always going to be your "second plane" no matter what type of plane it is, and this is simply because it will be the 2nd plane that you own. And the plane after that will of course be your "third plane". Trying to classify a plane as a "second" or "third" plane simply confuses the conversation and should be avoided, IMHO.

Now that is out of my system, let's look at the question at hand!! Let's face it, we live in an instant gratification society today where everybody wants everything "right now". And unfortunately we see that attitude spill over to our hobby. The problem with that is too many people quickly move into planes that they just aren't ready to handle. And this is usually a recipe for disaster. Skills must be learned and practiced before a person can move up to the next level of this hobby. I'm not saying that Shortymet fits this category because I haven't seen him fly, but I have seen a lot of people in this same boat. I've seen pilots who think they are "hotshots" with their trainers and are "too good" to buy an intermediate trainer (a.k.a. 4-star, Tiger II, and similar planes). They are afraid they will waste their money because they will quickly get board with them because "they are too good" to waste time on such planes. A lot of these types simply can't be told because they don't want to hear anything other than what they have their mind set on. What happens to this type? Usually they wind up learning a very expensive and very humbling lesson when they crash that plane they thought they were ready for. I've seen guys like this fly and most of the time they are simply trying to keep up with what the plane is doing, and they never are really in control of the plane as they should be.

My advice is get that intermediate trainer, and the 4-Star and Tiger II planes fit this bill. Many people will think that they are "boring" planes, but as Insanemoondoggie found out it's simply because they aren't flying to their full potential. For that matter, most people will leave their trainer because they think it won't do anything like advanced aerobatics. This is the same situation here, they just aren't working on it. Most of the trainers on the market today are actually quite capable of very advanced aerobatics. When you can take you trainer and take off, roll inverted, fly the pattern fully inverted, line up on approach inverted, roll upright, and then land you might be ready. And before anybody asks, yes it can be done. The same with the 4-Star. In fact, RCU member Bubbagates (hopefully he'll see this and comment) flys IMAC and pattern competitions but he still takes his 4-star to the field most of the time to fly it. If you do get a 4-star you can fly it until you can do almost everything on, and then cut off one bay off of each wingtip and "tada" you will discover a completly new plane to play with!!!!!!

When you fly these "less capable" planes and you learn to do advanced aerobatics on them it makes you a much better pilot. Then when you do move up to planes designed for that type of flying you will be absolutely amazed at what you can do now!!! Trust me here.

Ken

Well said, Ken, on both items.. .

As you can see, I have a few 'heavy hitters' in my inventory. Two of those, the Venus II and Excelleron 90, are both intermediate pattern planes, capable of doing everything in the list all the way up to FAI level. But, I seem to gravitate to my trainer for the first few flights of the day just so I can 're-learn' what I may have forgotten since the last outting, and to sharpen my reflexes enough to fly those two capable birds. The training never ends.

I also put the trainer up just to do some lazy flying. As MinnFlyer says, 'fly the box' and relax.

Take Ken's advice and stick with something that you can learn on and develop skills. You will be much happier and perhaps a much safer flyer.

ok, thanks Ken. This is why I asked here though. All I wanted to know was what skills are learned on a intermediate trainer, to see If I should skip it like someone suggested. Basically, the first post here by hogflyer answered my question. I think some of you didnt understand my question. I never tried to make myself look like a "hotshot" or "too good" as ken said to describe people he has seen who want to skip intermediate trainers. Someone else (not me) said i could get away with skipping it. After reading these posts, I learned that alot of important skills are learned with the intermediate trainer, so i shouldn't skip it. And im not trying to advance too quickly, but as expensive of a hobby this is, I wanted to see if I could get away with one less plane, but now I learned that its not worth risking because could likely just turn into one more plane after a crash.

My turn, blast me if you will but it is my opinion and personal experience.
4*, Tiger 2 ect.. are not, by far, the only choices.
Look for anything that has no more than 25oz wing loading, less is better. Avoid tapered wings (they are more likely to tip stall)
Planes I have flown that I think someone with skill can move into as a second plane (with skill means you can do any of the basic aerobatics with ease on your trainer and land comfortably every time)
Piper J3 Cub
Cesna 182
SpaceWalker 2
RV-4
Hanger 9 P-51 PTS
There are many others that should fit the bill, read reviews of specific airplanes and ask here.
Everyone is different and only you and the people you fly with can judge your ability and recommend a plane.

Ill most likely stick to a 4* or tiger 60, because the there are at least 2 of each that get flown regularly at my field, so i can get quick help from them.

I'm probably a prime example of moving forward too quickly. I took to RC pretty good and I'd say I became a decent pilot within a few months. I always wanted cooler planes though so I never stuck with anything long. At this point in my flying experience I can take a 3D profile and hover it, flat spins, blenders, harriers, you name it. I almost started thinking I was becoming a great pilot. Something kept nagging me though. The majority of my landings are great but I'd still end up just off the pavement now and then or send the plane bouncing. I also noticed that a lot of my maneuvers weren't as precise or crisp as I would like. My mistake was wanting to do the cool stuff before fully mastering some fundamentals. I actually decided to take a step back to work on the basics a little more. I bought a Sport Stick 40 from Hobby People as a "beater plane". I use it to do touch and goes, fly the pattern inverted, practice aerobatic maneuvers and so on. The plane actually flys so good with a .46-AX that it's probably my favorite now (I love doing full throttle inverted fly-bys with it). I have a World Models Skyraider Mach-II waiting for the day that the Sport Stick loses the rest of its covering and falls apart on me. Both are cheap planes that I can afford to screw up with. I also enjoy building so I just ordered my 4th 4* to bash into something a little nicer looking.

I went back to the basics for a reason. I want to be one of the better pilots at the club. I also really like airplanes such as my GP Revolver and OMP Edge-540. Warbirds have really been catching my interest too. I don't want these planes beat up or crashed due to me forgetting about the basic things.

skipping the 2nd plane is mathmatically impossable .. LOL

ok not all pilots are created equal and if you want to learn quickly it could be a good thing. i agree with all the prior advice though.

sooo build something quick to build and dirt cheap that you can learn fast on....SPAD SP3D check out Dave McDonalds version (longer tail boom more stable) it will give you some control skills you don't have yet and it will take a beating without eating up your budget and time.

haveing said that you should know that when i jumped to a four star 60 with an OS 91 FX i ran the whole flight line under their cars trimmed the trees BEHIND the flight line. Then someone managed to get to me and coach me to the runway. i didn't crash but i got the trianer out and left the 4*60 in the hanger for 3 months. SAFETY MUST BE CONSIDERED

Sometimes we wish we could skip our second plane.. Not me personally, but I would bet that there are those that may have wished they just passed by that level[:@]

But, as Missleman pointed out, there are lots of great choices out there. The Tiger II or the Four Star 40 and so on are just good recommendations mainly because they are so popular and and easy to build (kit) or assemble (arf).

I will add another one to the fray.. MinnFlyer wrote a short essay here on RCU about one he reviewed and tested, the Goldberg Protege 60 ARF. This may be a high-wing 'trainer' of sorts, as he pointed out, it has great abilities as both a trainer and as a high-wing aerobat. Based on his report, powered with the OS 55 he recommended, it is a true performer yet a ***** cat for those of you looking for a capable second. I picked one up yesterday, the 'ARF' version, and will assemble it as part of a show-and-tell at the FAA's annual Aviation Enrichment Symposium today. Although I don't have the engine yet (the LHS was sold out and has promisses for deliveries on the next two coming in, if that is any indication of the popularity of this fine engine), I will assemble the Protege using an older OS 50 as a template, then just add the .55 when it comes in.

I had a Midwest Aerobat a while back. It was a great performer also, on the order of the Protege. In fact, they look very similar, but the Aerobat was a 40 size plane with rubber-band mounted wings. If the Protege flys as good as that plane did, well, it's gonna be a keeper, for sure.

So, shop around and listen to the 'pro' RC'ers here on RCU. You definitely can't miss.