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learning 3d, what happens upon flameout?

Old 01-15-2008, 11:29 PM
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fozjared
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Default learning 3d, what happens upon flameout?

i am posting this in the beginner forum as i am trying my best to learn 3d and having a tough time! what percentage of people at your club can fly 3d? can you count them on one hand most of the time? it seems like the more time i spend on here and reading magazines etc. it seems like everyone and their dog as well can fly 3d!! it kinda makes me mad, until i get to the field and no one at our field can 3d, so it makes me feel better that i am at least on my way (today i held my yak 3d in a hover for about 30 seconds) i have been practicing at about 30' high in case i make a mistake, but today while doing that the engine almost died, i wasn't ready for that at all, it took me by surprise! if the engine had died i may have crashed it simply because it surprised me so i wasn't thinking straight.. the engine got over its boggle and went full throttle for me, thank the Lord for sure! when it went full throttle it pulled right out and away, but if it had died it could have been ugly.. how many of you that fly 3d have had a flameout? what happened to your plane, considering 3d flight is just a controlled stall and there will be little chance for there to be wind over your control surfaces without the engine's power, so what do you do if the engine dies? are there any important tips that would help me get this 3d flying down faster? i know you are supposed to move the cg slightly aft, but how much? i have 2 battery positions with velcro one it balances perfect and one it is a little tail heavy, i can't tell a difference either way! any advice will be greatly appreciated as i have been trying to 3d for quite some time! thanks!
Old 01-15-2008, 11:38 PM
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Missileman
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Default RE: learning 3d, what happens upon flameout?

As for the first question, there are only a couple of 3d fliers at my club and even they only fly 3d on occasion.
It is not entirely because it is hard either.
There a quite alot of fliers, myself included, that just plain and simple have no interest in flying 3d.
Old 01-15-2008, 11:40 PM
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Default RE: learning 3d, what happens upon flameout?

if the engine dies ont panic for 1 . point the nose at the ground and get as much air speed as u can and then land the plane as quickley and as safeley as posible it has hapend to me once or twice and i have done that it has worked for me you should panic when the batery falls out of the plane that has also hapend to me.

good luck..
Old 01-15-2008, 11:52 PM
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B.L.E.
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Default RE: learning 3d, what happens upon flameout?

If you flame out in the middle of a hover, altitude is your friend. If you don't have enough.........................your plane reverts back to a kit.
Old 01-16-2008, 12:09 AM
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fozjared
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Default RE: learning 3d, what happens upon flameout?

right, altitude is definitely your friend during the learning process, but most guys like to drag their tails in the grass, ya know? i would love to be able to do that some day soon! i never ever panic when i flame out flying normally, in fact with one of my planes i will kill the engine when i am ready to come in just for the extra practice of dead stick landings i got to where i can kill the plane and land it to where it will roll to my feet, talk about impressing myself when i did that the first time! then after that, that was my goal, to see if i could bring it in at a roll to my feet and can do it regularly.. in the past, when i set my mind to do something with the plane i can usually get good at it in a week or two of flying almost every day, but with this 3d thing i have been trying for quite some time to get good at and can't seem to get it down, and the real flight hover trainer seems to make it much more difficult than it is in real life??
Old 01-16-2008, 12:19 AM
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Default RE: learning 3d, what happens upon flameout?

I had a PRIEST intentionally attempt to fly through my plane whilst I was hovering. He missed, because he just could'nt fly that well....and his plane was 4 times as large as mine.

To fly 3D, you must practice as much as your lifestyle allows. You must follow all club rules, DESPITE the fact that the old warbird guys are immune from rules against flying over the pits, unsafe practices, rights of way, frequency posting, general behavior and pretty much any other rule ever imposed by a board consisting of those who have both the time and the desire to serve on A BOARD which subjugates the interests of their so-called friends. These same people often serve on HOA boards and generally show little in the way of meaningful contributions to society.

By the way... In answer to your questions. If the engine dies while you are performing a stalled maneuver, you're screwed. There is no way around that.

The best ways to learn 3D faster are: PRACTICE, FOAM, SIM, PRACTICE, and......MORE OF THE AFORE-MENTIONED ITEMS in the specified order.

Don't look for help at your field unless there are some 3D guys on 'the board'.

Search for teamflyingcirkus.com. Every time I post a link here it is 'accidentally' deleted. 3D is just not popular with the nearly-deads who run the hobby....for now.

Get used to the sad, angry, bitter rejection you face from the nearly-deads at your field(s). Fly anyway, and in spite of them. Never break any of their rules and ALWAYS be polite, courteous and willing to call an ambulance when yet another idiot allows his 'museum-quality' 1920 P.O.S. to take a chunk from his leg.

Enjoy, but follow the rules.
Old 01-16-2008, 12:46 AM
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fozjared
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Default RE: learning 3d, what happens upon flameout?

I always follow the rules of the field.. when others are out there with me that is hehe.. we fortunately dont have many rules and the old guys out there love to see someone put on a wild out of control show, because the people who fly like that out there are the big crashers and i am convinced that the elderly men at my field love to see a crash more than anyone! i personally hate to see a crash, not only because i feel sorry for the person, but it also just does something to me, makes me realize how my plane may be next, in turn it reduces my confidence! i have no problems with the old guys at my club i look up to most of them and enjoy their company.. i will be starting a club all my own this summer when i move back home, so i should be set on rules for the rest of my life, as they will be my rules and i can break them if i want!
Old 01-16-2008, 12:51 AM
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Default RE: learning 3d, what happens upon flameout?

altitude is your friend to an extent when hovering. consider this though. if you are on the deck and it flames out or you get a case of the dumb thumbs, it is not far to fall. so depending on how tough the plane is you could fare pretty well. the other argument for low is that it is easier to see small movements and corrections when it is low and close to you. on the other hand, there is zero time to correct if ya blow it. sims help a lot with getting your thumbs "programmed" to how the plane is gonna reac in different attitudes. and foamies are a pretty good learning tool as well. have fun either way.
Old 01-16-2008, 12:57 AM
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Default RE: learning 3d, what happens upon flameout?

Get a profile!!! The above posts are right, when the engine quits you are screwed! You are actually much better off hovering a foot off the ground than you are at 20'. Falling 1 foot rarely hurts anything on a profile, and even if it does you can fix it in 10 minutes with CA and packing tape. Most beginners hover in the "Death Zone" around 20'. It is called this because you will have just enough time for the plane to flip 180 degrees and line up perfectly nose first into the ground! (Don't ask me how I know this and have tested this theory on numerous occasions!) The profiles are the best to learn on because they are light, large wing and control surfaces, and easy to repair. I highly recommend the MOJO, very easy kit to build and they don't come any stronger than that. As far as the mix of pilots goes, our club has both the very skilled 3D/IMAC pilots and the Circle Jerks! We used to have some conflicts, but the numbers are pretty evenly matched and even the CJ's stop to watch when there is a 40% YAK dragging its rudder down the runway. Most everyone now just respects the skill and keeps quiet.

Tim
Old 01-16-2008, 02:30 AM
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Default RE: learning 3d, what happens upon flameout?


ORIGINAL: agexpert

To fly 3D, you must practice as much as your lifestyle allows. You must follow all club rules, DESPITE the fact that the old warbird guys are immune from rules against flying over the pits, unsafe practices, rights of way, frequency posting, general behavior and pretty much any other rule ever imposed by a board consisting of those who have both the time and the desire to serve on A BOARD which subjugates the interests of their so-called friends. These same people often serve on HOA boards and generally show little in the way of meaningful contributions to society.

Search for teamflyingcirkus.com. Every time I post a link here it is 'accidentally' deleted. 3D is just not popular with the nearly-deads who run the hobby....for now.

Get used to the sad, angry, bitter rejection you face from the nearly-deads at your field(s). Fly anyway, and in spite of them. Never break any of their rules and ALWAYS be polite, courteous and willing to call an ambulance when yet another idiot allows his 'museum-quality' 1920 P.O.S. to take a chunk from his leg.

Enjoy, but follow the rules.
This is going to be an off topic response, but here goes.

Our club is run by the "nearly-deads" as you call us. I'm the secetary and the second youngest on the board and I have been on medicade for two yeard now. Why am I on the board??? Simple reason, we can't get any and I'll repeat ANY of you younger guys to step up. Period. When it came time to nominate officers in November, we tried to recrute new board members. NONE of the younger guys would even consider throwing their name in the hat.

So, as long as you young guys just want to "Rent" a place to fly by paying the club dues, and don't want to get involved, you have absoultely no right to get pissed about anyting at the field. Ask yourself this. When us "Nearly Deads" are in fact dead what happens to your club and field. At the rate of the younger participation, you won't have a club to belong to or a field to fly at. Get involved, and get your friends involved. Take control of the club and field and put some life back into it. Us "nearly deads" arn't going to do it for you, you have to do it yourself.

Don
Old 01-16-2008, 07:16 AM
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Default RE: learning 3d, what happens upon flameout?

I watched a big Yak doing 3d hovering over the paved runway. At 15' it threw the prop. The result was so pretty! Lots of little balsa pieces scattered everywhere.

Dr.1
Old 01-16-2008, 07:26 AM
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Default RE: learning 3d, what happens upon flameout?

a few of us fly (or try) 3d dont get upset it will come in time. as a some one told me fly 1 foot off the grounf or 100 feet offthe ground up high you will have time and air speed to land, down low you so low your wont brak much just pancake it to the grass. use nylon bolt in your landing gear and that will save the rest of your plane. also take off you wheel pants
Old 01-16-2008, 11:58 AM
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Default RE: learning 3d, what happens upon flameout?

It always helps to perform your first few days of 3D flights at high altitudes, so you can check to see if deadsticks will be an issue with your plane and setup.

Old 01-16-2008, 12:51 PM
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Default RE: learning 3d, what happens upon flameout?

Get something cheap to learn on. Preferably an ARF so it doesn't break your heart. ;-) Use a broken-in engine that has demonstrated reliability (this Goldberg model has a very well campaigned TT Pro-46 with a Perry Carb).

As far as "circle-jerks", "old guys" & "nearly-deads" vs. "prop hangers", "snotty kids" & "speed bumps" there will always be hard feelings when your're competing for airspace. It's your 15 minutes - use them as you see fit. We solve that at our club by designating hover areas OFF the main runway (we have the great advantage of having two full-size runways at our dual-use airfield). Why does everyone think 3-D ends at the hover? There are many high-alpha maneuvers. Get off the runway and try some!

I'm the club secretary and have a foot in both worlds and am tolerant of 3-D fliers, but usually the others in the air with me piss me off. I don't know what they're doing and vice-versa. COMMUNICATE with the other pilots in the air! Call your intentions. Makes a world of difference. Nothing upsets you more than attempting to pass over a plane in hover along the designated pattern than when they goose it to pull out just as you approach. I've seen many pilots of both ilks who seem not to know the maneuver they are engaging in until after it is completed. Hard for someone else to work around you when even you don't know what you're doing. And I admit to being guilty of that myself. Something doesn't work so I pull into something else in the middle of a maneuver. In that case ASK FOR AIR TIME ALONE. "I want to try a new one, mind if I use the runway?" Our club allows members to request that and many do with maiden flights.

And, by the way, it works both ways. At our annual Fun-Fly there are some 3-D pilots who will not fly with some of the Warbird guys. One in particular is an old but one-sided grudge resulting from a crashed giant scale 3-D gas ship that the owner blamed on a 1/3 scale DVIII that was 200 yards away. Never did figure that one out but it is ongoing. Some people never make a mistake in their own minds. You're always "hit" or "cut-off" but never just screw up on your own (and that's not a 3-D problem, that's broad spectrum). Others feel they are "persecuted" by P-51's and P-47's that make high speed passes over them. Perfectly good air and they weren't using it. ;-) Yet the sames ones will claim "Well, you weren't landing" if someone accuses them of blocking the field or clogging the pattern.

Every club has cliques. Maybe we need to do like the old rollerscating rinks? "This one is just for the 3-D's". "Now you pattern fliers". "All fly, All fly".
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Old 01-16-2008, 01:19 PM
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Default RE: learning 3d, what happens upon flameout?

ORIGINAL: Charlie P.

Our club allows members to request that and many do with maiden flights.

That's one thing that ticks me off.

I've often been trying to help someone maiden a new plane, and we call out "Maiden, hit the deck" and other things so that everyone is aware of what is happening. We also wait until no one is in the air.

Inevitably just as we are getting the plane running down the runway someone decides that it is THEIR turn to take off w/o even giving us a few minutes for us to get the new plane trimmed out.

I've had my hands on the sticks of a plane found to be OVERLY tail heavy once in the air, only to have to try to keep it under control and get it down, while all the while having to scream for everyone else to stay out of the way... even after repeated warnings.... My spotter ends up having to run to each pilot station instead of helping me to bring down the errant plane.

It seems that many people forget what "maidening" a plane means...

Is it too much to expect 2-3 minutes to get it trimmed or back down? Sheez.



Old 01-16-2008, 02:52 PM
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Default RE: learning 3d, what happens upon flameout?

Remember the "old days" when clubs were a bunch of friends that got together and formed one up because they were . . . friends? Me neither. There are four or five established clubs in this general region and the mood and focus is different among them all. It pays to choose your friends/clubs wisely. I switched clubs for that reason; the philosophy was much more laid back and pleasant. We fly because we like to fly and, for the most part, like to hang around together. I think there will always be some splinters and factions that form cliques. That's just people.

Soon we will have clubs that started as 3-D and there will be the habitat that other like minded fliers will gravitate to.

That little Goldberg was so wild on it's maiden I didn't dare loosen my death-grip enough to take my thumbs off the transmitter so to adjust the trims. Hands off it would do one roll a second, though only took about 1/5 left stick to right it. Yippee! Flew it for five minutes in 15 mph winds just to "get the feel" in the untrimmed state because I knew the landing would be hairy. I had the air to myself and was glad for it. On landing I dialed in another 20% reduction on the lower rates and put in a wad of exponential. It's a ripper of a little 3-D model. Flat rolls like a maple seed.
Old 01-16-2008, 03:47 PM
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Default RE: learning 3d, what happens upon flameout?

At our field people are paitente and allow time for whatever you fly. 3D aircraft, scale, pattern, whatever you want we have some time for you to fly.

Stick 40
Old 01-16-2008, 03:52 PM
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Default RE: learning 3d, what happens upon flameout?

Ok, I'll hijack this hijacked thread back to its original intent for a moment.

fozjared,

I’ve been flying my Fancyfoam SU-29 EP learning 3D along with a buddy’s Twist 60. Until I started flying 3D I didn’t think much of it, but after trying it I love it!

Recently I was flying the Twist and put it into a hover at about 40’. As it came into the hover the engine started to sag. I quickly pushed the nose down as the engine quit and it started to stall. I was able to arrest the stall, but this is from practice on this plane so I know what to expect for its specific stall characteristics and how to recover. I had to do a 180 degree turn after this and didn’t quite make it back to the runway – about 30’ off the runway. If you are going to fly 3D you have to do so with the expectancy that you will loose a plane or two. My foamie has made enough unscheduled landings in attitudes other than its belly that I’m now having to fit plywood doublers on the nose – something I expect with 3D at 10’ or less with that plane, and something I consider an acceptable risk on that airframe also (shorter fall so there will be less damage to the motor or electronics).

I like doing high alpha flying with the Twist at altitudes that if the engine quits I’ll be buying my buddy a new airframe, but there again it’s a risk I’m will to take. Why? Because it’s a blast to do a 5 mph down the runway at 4’ with the gear pointing to the sky.

Most of the hovering I do, and a lot of the 3D maneuvers I do, are up at a safe altitude where I can recover the plane to controlled flight if I have to deal with an inflight emergency or dumb thumb it. I’d recommend to practice at an altitude of at least 75’ for learning the maneuvers. After that then drop your altitude when you feel comfortable not only with you ability to handle the plane in an emergency situation but also when you are ready to face the fact that if the engine quits or you dumb thumb it, the plane is toast.

Hogflyer

Now I’ll let the hijackers have the thread back……..
Old 01-16-2008, 09:04 PM
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fozjared
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Default RE: learning 3d, what happens upon flameout?

i have been hanging it around 35-45', i would hate to lose this plane so i may get a profile plane, or build one.. keep the comments coming guys.
Old 01-16-2008, 09:09 PM
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Default RE: learning 3d, what happens upon flameout?

i am building a ohio model planes kit right now 69.99 it's small 47 in i putting a os 55ax. a good thing about small profile is there cheap fast building and but need all the high end stuff to get them up in the air. you may also look at h9 tribute ?
Old 01-16-2008, 10:43 PM
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Default RE: learning 3d, what happens upon flameout?

The reason I suggest the MOJO is because it has a tube running full length down the fuselage. If you don't have that tube, the first time you nose it in the fuselage will break right behind the wing and the plane will be toast. Do the same thing on a MOJO or PRIMO or any of the profiles with tubes and at worst you will have to put on a new prop or glue a couple of pieces of balsa in the nose. I have had both types of profiles and have several "half planes" awaiting repairs, none have tubes because those planes are still flying! I had never built a kit before I got my MOJO. It was a very easy and quick build, it is light and has large wing area and control surfaces, uses standard servos, and works with a variety of engines. The 40 size comes in around 4-4.5 lbs and a 46 or 55 two stroke is plenty of power. Price wise, it is cheaper than the Tribute and around the same price as the kits on OMP's site. There is a reason why everyone recommends them. It is because they are the best of this style of plane!

Tim
Old 01-16-2008, 10:53 PM
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Default RE: learning 3d, what happens upon flameout?

I have been flying an Aero Works extra 260 profile for a while. Its only 16oz and with e power it won't deadstick. I like the simplicity and toughnest of the profiles. They also have real airfoils and glide better than foamys. I think any of the electric 3d profiles would be good to use. I fly at 2 outlaw fields and almost everyone trys to fly 3D,we are still learning.

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