Having flown two trainers and two Slow Pokes (both the 10 and Sport 40), I will soon have my first kit completed, one of the intermediate planes on Ken's list. After I've had several flights with this plane, I will need to determine which direction I plan on going with this hobby.

Playing with the simulator, I tend to gravitate towards the more aerobatic models, the ones that go exactly where you point them. Some of my favorites on ReaFlight 4.0 include the Ultimate Bipe, Venus II, and The Yak 54 3D. Would there be a plane between the Rapture I am now finishing, and one of those more advanced models to consider? What would be the most ideal "third plane"? Could someone theoretically jump into a bipe after some time with a Sig Four-Star or Tiger 2?

NorfolkSouthern

(So many questions to bug people with, so little time!)

I would say yes. There is a lot of hype out there that discourages people from biplanes. My first bipe was a World Models Ultimate 40. It was maybe my fourth plane. I never crashed it. The thing to remember about a bipe is that they have an extra wing wich means more frontal drag. so they slow down very quickly when you drop the power or dead stick. They have a much steeper glide slope than what you are used to. You will land a bipe above idle whenever possible. The other issue is that with the two wings people have a tendancy to get disorientated more easily than with a conventional monoplane. Having flown both Aerobatic bipes and aerobatic monoplanes I find the monoplanes more capable of a wider variety of manouvers while the bipes tend to atract more of an audience when flown.

It seams you like to build! Try a Sig Hog bipe maybe as a first bipe. (RCKen is the resident expert on this plane) I still have one new in box that I look forward to building but I also have a 1/4 scale Cermark Pitts S2B ARF that I need to get together and fly. As far as monoplane aerobatic. If you might like an ARF I recomend the Funtana series from Hanger 9. I have the Funtana 40S and the FuntanaX 100 both are impressive flyers.

chase your muse,this hobby has so many options,if you have a definate direction go for it,you can always change your mind.
I always wanted to fly WWII warbirds so after working through the beginning stages its my primary focus,not like a sport plane doesn't get in the mix to keep things lively,the important thing is that your having fun right

I agree with BIGTIM; follow your heart, everyone is different.

I have seen fellows 20 years into the hobby and still quite happy flying a CUB, others want the disipline of PATTERN and then there are the guys that are happy just to bore a hole in the sky with a STICK!

Just don't let someone else TELL you what to do... [] [:'(]

If you really want to challenge yourself now that you know how to fly, get a thermal glider, and then go fishing for thermals. It doesn't have the adrenaline rush of the low altitude 3D and aerobatics, but you have to develop a very close sense of your plane, and when you hook that thermal that specks you out, you'll find out what I mean.

Brad

If you like to build, you might want to try a GP Ultra Sport

Once you are comfortable with that, you could move up to the GP Skybolt (Kit or ARF) or an Ultimate Bipe if bipes are your thing.

The only concern I would have with a Bipe is the way they handle. Depending on what you get, they tend to be a tad more reactive to inputs. This is not bad, just different. If you are ready, and willing, then go for it. They are not "my bag" and I don't like them all that much. Now, I likle to look at them and watch them fly, but I just don't have any interest (right now that is) in flying them.

CGr.

As far as the bipe as a third. Absolutely but not the ultimate. it is a very hot flier to be sure.
Sig Hog as mentioned, my first bipe was a 40 size SE5. Both of these are pretty tame. I would imagine some of the other ww2 bipes would be easier to handle than a more aerobatic model. Just to get used to flying a bipe.
NOW, aerobatic planes as a third plane? That depends on how comfortable with your second plane you are.
SIG Somthing Extra maybe? Super Sportster?
I am flying a Showtime right now and am loving it but I would be hesitant to recommend it as a 3rd plane not knowing your skill level.

I wouldn't disagree with any of the advice offered so far. As an experienced pilot with a couple of trainers and a sport plane or two under your belt, you have plenty of options to choose from for your next plane.

What comes after a "second plane" depends in part with the interests of the pilot. You could try a pattern plane or sport/scale model if aerobatics are something that you'd like to improve on or explore further. If scale warbirds are appealing to you, a sport/scale warbird ARF might make a good next project. There are several biplanes available that wouldn't be beyond the capabilities of the seasoned sport pilot. You could even choose a sport or scale pylon racer like the Great Planes Viper or the World Models Nemesis if racing appeals to you. Sailplanes and gliders, flying wings, 3D planes, sea planes, and even helicopters are all areas of interest that you are now ready to explore further.

Those who said to "chase your muse" were trying to convey the above idea, where you go next is largely up to what interests you. There is no "wrong" decision for a third plane, unless you pick something overly exotic and challenging. Flying a low wing sport plane won't really prepare you for the challenges of scale WWI biplanes/triplanes for instance, nor will it give you all the skills required to fly your first turbine-powered jet model.

Like many of the other posters, I would recommend exploring pattern and/or IMAC aerobatic airframes next. You mentioned the Venus II and the Yak 54 as two of the airframes that you enjoy flying on the simulator, and they are representative of these types of aircraft. Very basically speaking, pattern planes like the Venus are sport models designed for advanced aerobatics while scale aerobats like the Yak 54 are also designed for advanced aerobatics but they're modelled after full-sized airplanes.

Both classes of airframe come in a huge variety of sizes and styles, and can be powered with your choice of brushless electric, 2-stroke glow, 4-stroke glow, or even gasoline power systems. You can literally spend as little or as much as you'd like for either class of plane.

Some examples of pattern kits/ARFs: Great Planes Venus 40/Venus II, Great Planes Tracer, Great Planes Ultra Sport, Tower Hobbies Kaos .40 ARF, Pheonix SeaBee, Thunder Tiger Imagine 50, Kyosho Oxalys, World Models Groovy 50/90 F3A, World Models Aeropet 50/90, World Models Spot On 50/120, World Models Zen 30/50/90/120, World Models Intruder 90R, Sig Kobra/Kougar/King Kobra

Some examples of scale aerobatic airframes: Yak 54, Sukhoi SU-31, CAP232, Extra 260, Extra 300S, Extra 330L, Giles 202, Edge 540, Katana, CAP 580, Super Chipmunk

Neither of these lists are by any means comprehensive, but are offered merely to help provide examples of each category.

A good .40-size pattern model like the Great Planes Venus .40 ARF and a good .40-size scale aerobat like the KangkeUSA Extra 300S .40 ARF will have similar aerobatic capabilities and flying characteristics. Neither will self-correct like a trainer or "second plane" sport airframe will as they have little to no dihedral built into the wing. Both are capable of flying very fast or cruising along nice and easy. Both will require a little more speed when landing as they will lack the "floating" quality that a trainer or sport plane will often have.

One of the clubs that I fly at has a group of pattern pilots that fly and compete regularly at pattern contests. After joining the club, I've spent many enjoyable hours watching them practice flying their pattern routines on their expensive 2-meter pattern airframes with their YS 1.40 supercharged 4-stroke engines and their Futaba 14MZ PCM radio systems. Watching the grace and skill with which they practice their aerobatics captured my interest, and I'm trying to work my way into entry-level pattern flying.

If you fly at a club with a lot of scale aerobatic pilots, or you fly at a club that hosts IMAC style aerobatic competitions, that may be a more natural fit for you. It's more fun to fly with folks who share your same interests, and to fly categories of aircraft that appeal to other club members so you can have fun fly or contest events at your club. There's not much point in hosting a flying wing glider combat contest at your club if you're the only member who wants to participate.

Also, flying one style of plane doesn't preclude flying the other. If you want to fly a Venus 40 and an Extra 300S, you are only limited by your budget and storage space. Unless you decide that you want to fly competitively in either category, no harm can come from enjoying both.

Pattern pilots and scale aerobatic pilots are actually organized into Special Interest Groups (SIGs) within the hobby. Pattern pilots have an organization called the National Society of Radio Controlled Aerobatics (NSRCA), and scale aerobatic pilots have an organization called the Internatioanl Minature Aerobatic Club (IMAC).

Each SIG has its own website, and you might wish to look them over:

http://www.nsrca.us

http://www.mini-iac.com

The NSRCA website has examples of pattern schedules and the kinds of aerobatic manuevers routinely performed, airplane trimming guides for balancing your aircraft for pattern flying, and more. As I type this, the mini-iac is not working, so you may want to check out www.iac.org and read what they have to say about IMAC.

Competition is a cool aspect of advanced aerobatic flying, but it is by no means mandatory. Plenty of pilots enjoy flying pattern and IMAC style aerobatic planes and practicing aerobatics without ever entering a competition. Flying these classes of aircraft and practicing various aerobatic manuevers simply allows you to improve your flying skills and learn new stunts instead of simply buzzing around the field and "punching holes in the sky."

Hopefully I haven't bored you too much with all of this extra information. If you're more interested in warbirds or pylon racing than aerobatics, most of what I've written is useless. Based on the planes that you're flying on the simulator, however, I think pattern and IMAC are flying styles that you'll enjoy.

Good luck and good shopping!

Another idea that popped into my mind is the Hangar-9 Tango. Mike McConfille recommended it as a "third plane" in another thread. The thick airfoil would allow for slower flights, yet the larger control surfaces could add more agility and quicker response. I have talked with some people about the Hangar-9 Twist, and they all say it can be quite docile with low rates. The Tango might be similar, with the added high-wing stability. Perhaps it could be well suited as a third plane, but I would like to read more before I press mine into service.

I will pass on the Ultimate for now, from what I've read here. Building isn't exactly the most pleasant of activities for me, even though I have put the Rapture together successfully. And it looks like the Ultimate would give me a bit more than I bargained for. I think another option would be either the Great Planes Venus II, or Venus 40, both patter planes. Should I decide to go with another kit, chances are I may seriously consider Minn Flyer's suggestion of the Ultra Sport. I am thinking I could also try the Great Planes Cessna again, after sharpening my skills with the Rapture. So far, I have these to consider as "third planes":

1. Sig Hog Bipe
2. Great Planes Ultimate
3. Great Planes Super Sportster
4. Great Planes U-Can-Do
5. Piper J-3 Cub

I'm not sure of these, but perhaps they could be considered:

6. Great Planes Cessna 182
7. Great Planes Venus 40
8. Great Planes Venus II
9. Hangar-9 Tango
10. Hangar-9 Twist

So far, would my list of "third planes" be considered as accurate?

And here are some that might be more advanced:

1. Great Planes Ultimate 40
2. Hangar-9 Funtana

Folks, what I am arriving at is sort of a skill level guide, based on what I've been reading and advice from other pilots. It is my personal feeling that Hobbico's guide may not be accurate. I'm thinking that a guide would be of great benefit for beginners, something we should all work on based on our experiences. It would allow people to advance in the hobby, and could save a good deal of money an headaches. What do you all think?

NorfolkSouthern

bigedmustafa: I submitted my response, just saw your reply come up before mine. Yes, I will add some of your suggestions to the list, they are all good. I would truly like to see this thread develop, I think it would be a great service to the hobby, keeping the public informed. I just don't want to see a total newbie buy that Sundowner off the shelf, expecting it to be like the Alpha Trainer sitting next to it. On that, I think we can all agree.

NorfolkSouthern

Once your sport aircraft are no longer a challenge you can move on to whatever you wish. You just have keep with the discipline of not over-controlling the aircraft. I lerned to fly with an instructor(<< key element) using a ModelTech Magic that was given to me. This taught me many things about controlling an RC aircraft not learned from most trainer-type airframes; The main thing being that under normal flying conditions a properly set up airplane will only do what I tell it to do. So, as long as you don't over-control and tell the aircraft the wrong thing, all is well. Don't be afraid to move up to a more advanced aircraft, whatever your taste. There are so many different areas of RC flight to explore, you really never run out of options to shake things up.

BTW: I still have the Magic.... never been crashed, thanks to my Instructor it survived the learning experience.

Well, it looks like we were both typing for quite a while.

Some of your choices for "third plane" are advanced sport planes, a little quicker and/or more capable than the Rapture .40 - these would include the Super Sportster and the Hog Bipe. These are excellent airframes, but not wildly different in overall performance from other sport planes. These are good, "safe" choices for third planes. Other sport planes like the Lanier Shrike and the Great Planes Patriot XL are higher performance versions of advanced sport planes, as well.

Other choices like the U-Can-Do, the Tango, the Twist, and the Funtana are 3D/Fun Fly planes. They're quite aerobatic and more capable than typical sport planes, but don't fall into formal pattern or IMAC aerobatic categories like the airframes I mentioned in my previous posts. This is a very broad category that includes a lot of airframes you haven't mentioned - Great Planes Dazzler, Tower Hobbies Uproar, H9 Showtime 50/90, Model Tech Magic 3D, Model Tech Magic Forumula 3D, Model Tech Twister, and most every profile glow ARF or Kit on the market like the H9 Tribute 36, Sig Ultimate Fun Fly, Sig Fazer, Tower Hobbies Fun 51, etc.

All of the 3D/Fun Fly planes mentioned above (and many, many more) will make good "third" airplanes if 3D acrobatics are of interest to you. These planes will generally have thick airfoils and can be slowed down and landed gently enough. It's when you have them whipping through the air and rolling so fast you can't count the number of rotations that they differ from sport planes. By most accounts, the Funtana and Showtime airplanes aren't reported to be particularly difficult to fly, you'll simply want to work your way up to high rates while you get used to the large 3D style control surfaces.

Your 3rd category of interest seems to be scale civilian aircraft - such as the Piper J3 Cub and the Cessna 182 on your list. This would actually be similar to the IMAC scale aerobatic category that I mentioned previously, but the J3 Cub probably wouldn't be very competitive at an aerobatics competition. Other airframes you haven't mentioned that fall in this category would be the Citabria, Decathlon, Super Decathlon, and Clipped Wing Cub ARFs available from a number of manufacturers in various sizes. Technically the Ultimate Biplane is civilian scale and quite IMAC capable. Many pilots report that they've successfully flown the Ultimate as a third airplane, but I would suspect they spent a good deal of time gaining a lot of experience with their second plane before moving up.

How a plane is categorized really isn't the most important thing. This thread has mentioned dozens of great airframes for "third plane" choices that cover a wide variety of options. There are many dozens more that haven't been mentioned that would be great choices as well.

Generally speaking, the only flying characteristics that you need to avoid if possible in a "third plane" are airframes that easily "tip stall" and dip a wing if slowed too much while landing or if taken off too quickly. If you can take off and land the airframe, you can adjust the engine power and control throws as you see fit while graduating from a "second plane" to whatever else you decide to fly. General categories of troublesome planes can include scale warbirds that tend to tip-stall and/or nose over when taxiing, scale aerobats like the Cap 232 that can tip stall or snap unexpectedly if over-controlled (low rates will prevent this while learning).

Can you do an 8 piont roll or multi roll..like 4 consecutive rolls without loosing altitude,
tail slide or a torque roll , hover, lumcuvac on a 4* yet ???
Or a nice humty dump or maybe a nice snap roll right at the top of the humty dump.
or a lumcuvac into an inverted flat spin
My 4* is capiable of all those manuvers...I bashed it thou

I only reason i don't like bi plane is storage space.
I had an ulitimate and a pitt.
Once you get all together..you won't really want to take it apart.

The Something Extra or any profile type models are nice to have. I extended the ruddesr...of course.
The profiles type will do better kinfe edge becuase of the body, but they're one piece.
The SE comes apart for better transport and storage.
These type of models still retains a straight wing chord .
The air foil are thick. You can toss it all over the place and they land like kittens.

A scale type model with tappered wings..you'll get a snap of sorts if you're not careful.
taking off and landing one these is totally different from your trainer.

Hello, I have a Model Tech 1/3 scale Piper J3 CUB. Planning to install on it a OS max 55 GT gas engine. Some friends said that engine will be over power. What is your opinion?? Don't you think that the DLE 30 will be enough power for that Bird???

Hi NorfolkSouthern
I would like to suggest you keep an eye on the SPADS, further down the page. You may enjoy designing and building your own. There are many options there. Just another idea. The Pusher Canard, Twin engine, Pusher-Puller, Biplane, Twin Tail, J3-Cub known as CoroCub, are some of the planes I have built. All made out of Coroplast.

it sounds like you are intersted in aerobatics or 3D. If so, I'd stay away from the mass produced stuff from Horizon or Great Planes. They market 3D models like a TWIST and UCD which is a great model for 99% of the folks that fly them, but it's not a truly 3D aerobat. If you want serious 3D in nitro, I'd check out an an OMP or Swanny profile. If thinking electric, I'd highly recommend an Extreme Flight, Precision Aerobatics, or 3dhobbyshop bird. Their models are similar in price to horizon/great planes models, but are specifically designed for 3D.

You might also check out some foamies if learning 3D. Doinking one of these hurts you (and the wallet) much less than a balsa model. Hyperion, DW Foamies, 3DEPP, and a plethora of other manufactures all have options that are 3D monsters.

I too am heading toward my "3rd" plane.already have it built up and have maidened it; a BHExtra 300S .46.

My path was similar to yours, electric trainer first, then methanol trainer, now low wing sport flyer (GP Escapade) and next the Extra

However i chose the Extra because large scale aerobatics is where I want to head towards. I figure that becoming a good pilot by way of aerobatics is an investment in not writing offf expensive warbirds in future, or at least lowers the risk considerably.

you have been given many great options but theres one I'd like to throw in the ring; The Great Planes Larger Revolver 70inch ws.

The little Extra is quite a spritely airframe to fly and I can see it will take the better part of a few hours flyihng time to reach a level of competancy that I can build on the jump to a larger aircraft and extract the maximum from it.

I see no reason why you could do similar. I think the Revolver will take you from "2nd plane" to whatever you want to fly thereafter. It gets my vote for your 3rd.

As soon as one of my old students is able to fly his second plane, usually something like the 4* or Super Sportster then it's pretty much up to them to choose what plane they really like. Last year I had one go with an Extra and one went with the YAK 54, both are really happy with there choices and haven't had any problem with there planes. As a third plane I have no problems with a bipe at all but it does depend on the skills of the pilot. Bipes fly just like any other plane, they do slow down faster and some of them tend to snap roll in a stall if you go too slow and bank too hard, not all of them and the ones I saw mentioned are great choices. Ground handling a bipe is the tough part, not landing but taking off. Short coupled bipes like to ground loop and get away from the pilot. The Ultimate and Hog are pretty well behaved and good choices. I like the Ultimates , they can be flown gental and soft or you can turn them up and go nuts. The moments are long enough that they handle very well on the ground. For the third plane I feel it's up to the pilot to choose his own plane and to just go with your own feelings. It's the second plane that always takes the beating, the third one seems to last a long time.

If you have any kit building experience I reccommend a Joe Bridi Killer Chaos kit. for 90bucks plus 20 shipping you get an excellent kit with laser cut parts. Althought the instructions suck the plans are perfect and there is a Build thread here with hundreds of pictures in case you get stuck.

And this is a fun fun plane its kind of like an arrow you point it and it shoots. Totally predictable and lands very easy for a tail dragger because of its wide gear stance. Team it up with any old 50-60 and you have a winner. Its such a fun Sunday flyer.

There's a picture of mine that I fly all the time in my models.

Regards
Denwag

For me, it also depends on the mood. Some days I have a thirst for speed and others just a lazy loop or two is dandy. So you need several models! I've never actually owned a model long enough (or had one survive long enough) to consider it mastered. I have a problem with vertical and horizontal rolling circles generally, and one model I had that was good at those (the model, not me) ended up being dorked when I tried to recover at eye-level from an inverted limbo pass. poof.

You can learn a lot with a predictable model, but you can learn more with an unpredictable one.

If you have mastered the bunny slope you can either stay there and brag you never fall while skiing . . . or you can take a different lift to a steeper slope and keep learning. ;-) I t doesn't matter which path you chose so long as you keep moving.

Yikes thats encouraging. My trainer had to be re assembled a few times after many deadsticks ended up too long or too short of the runway.

My Escapade is surviving quite well though. I hop that means my 3rd (the Extra) will have a long and aerobatic life.

Usually you fly the heck out of the trainer then start learning stunts with your second plane and you get to the point of no panic attacks when you get a dead stick. Those poor second planes take a beating and get a lot of repair work. By the time you get to the third plane you have figured out the little things like keeping the nose down with a dead stick and how to do an S or two so you aren't too high to land or too far out. The third plane and all planes after seem to just last a lot longer and they stay in better shape. ARFs don't last as long as a kit build but even they last a bunch longer.
I fly a lot of old school pattern planes and the Kaos has been my favorite over the years but the Ultra Sport is the grand son of the Kaos so that is another good choice. The old pattern planes make me look a lot better then I really am. Just so many planes to choose from so it's up to the beholder to see what they want next. I'm building the Dirty Birdy right now to replace my poor old Kaos, the DB is another Bridi design, sleeker looking then the Kaos and will hold a much better knife edge line. Blue Jay had most of the Bridi kits and the pric is right. Problem is these are old school planes and old school builds, a lot of carving and sanding compared to the newer kits and the instructions do leave a lot to be desired. Not for newer kit builders. They really are great planes though and built like tanks!!

this is one of the reasons I went with a Big Stik as my "2nd" plane. Easy to rebuild

Ilearned to do everything on my trainer; Rolls, loops, figures of 8, inverted flight, even knife edging the bird.
most of the damage occurred in the first month as I was either;

1) fying it out of fuel
2) deadsticking due to unknown issues with the engine, fuel combination.

all it took was knocking the landing gear block out twice and an awkward yank on the elevator - stall and cartwheel to wreck the wings as well.
Fortunately I learn quickly and don't make the same mistake twice but when you're green you have a lot of mistakes to make before you're competant.

2nd plan is enjoying the fruits of all that..

3d plane I may just fly the covering off.

When learning any new manuevre, I take the trainer out and try it on that plane first, then get to a comfortable level and then relearn the manuevre on the low winger, 3-4 mistakes high.

I have not used a sim either, doesn't help me at all. when it could help withperfercting stick movements but I find I can close my eyes and Tx in hand, I can imagine the manuevre in my minds eye. Better than any sim.


Oops, I think we're creeping off topic