Brief history: I solo'd years ago, but only flew (and landed) a few times. I was generally impatient, flew on really windy days and carelessly assembled my models. I never flew with an instructor... just drove out to the country with no people/property around. Was always really nervous when I flew (had no RC sim'ing experience at all). Stopped after a while.

This time, again years later from the above, I'm doing things right. I am joining a club and I have been conditioning my thumb reflexes in a sim (FS One)... So generally focusing on being more prepared this time... and just doing things right and patiently.

My question is regarding: when I go out to the sanctioned field for the first time with a new trainer, I'm assuming that the club will want me to fly with an instructor first (and I wouldn't mind that... in case something with wind happens, etc). But I can see why they would want that since there are people and property around (the field is big enough though).

I wanted to ask if the instructor would prefer or expect a certain flying style from me as a beginner.

When I'm sim'ing, I often sort of "pretend" and try to fly like I would if I were maidening my plane... not being aggressive, paying particular attention to being slow/smooth, a bit wider gentler turns.

Would the instructor be very particular about how he wants me to fly? If so, I could fly more that way in the sim as my maiden flight starts to come up (so it's habitual). I might be maidening fairly soon.

Thanks

p.s. I've also studied the map of my local field and it's no fly zones. In every sim scenery I sort of super-impose on it the no fly zones of my field and always stay out of them (again making it habitual).

I would expect you will be treated the same as any beginner.
The instructor will get the plane in the air and land it for you and, of course, take over if you get in trouble.
The first flight you probably not fly at all. The instructor will take your plane up and get it properly trimmed out.
Your first flights will likely be circuits around the field in one direction, concentrating on smooth turns and maintaining altitude in the turns.
Let your instructor know you have a sim and he will let you know what to practice to get ready for future flights.

Thanks for info. That's good to know ahead of time. I did not think that it would be as structured as that.

As for turning specifically... this overlaps with maintaining altitude, but even when flying carefully, I like to pull back on the stick just that extra bit to tighten the turn a little combined with appropriately adjusted roll to maintain more or less level altitude (not by much though... not like aerobatic or anything). Would tightening turns a little be a no no during beginner instruction?

P.S. But regardless, I would however take it as it comes with how it feels myself also. If I'm not feeling confident and good about how it's handling then I'll just be totally conservative all the way.

I think you are making this a lot more complicated than it needs to be. In your flying style, be accurate, precise and repeatable, i.e., be able to make a good 30 degree bank, hold it for the turn (90 or 180 degrees)and be able to do the same thing as well, again and again. If your 30 degree bank slops over to 60 degrees or 15 degrees, you have blown it. Do the same with a 45 degree bank, etc. "Tightening the turn, changing the bank, etc" is another way of masking sloppy flying. It is a lot easier to rationalize bad habits that way.

Thanks. My style has been repeatable and I don't play the sim like a video game at all. I use it only to better prepare myself for getting back into RC... Ive been a flying buff since I was a few feet tall..

Sometimes in FS One sim, I'm sloppy on purpose because I discover new things at times... then I work on precisely repeating those new things... particularly when flying a sim plane like the Funtana 40 or Twist. But that's getting way ahead of myself. I'll actually fly a much easier low winger before risking anything close to a Funtana in reality No way to simulate the more unpredictable wind and the "that's my $200 plane up there... aaahhh"

Thanks for input

The simulators do not simulate reality. Talk with your instructor before you fly. Let him know what you think you can do, and let him decide what he'll let you do. Your best bet is to think out loud while you're flying the plane. Say what you're going to do give it a second or two, and then do it. Your instructor will gain confidence in your ability to anticipate what the plane is doing.

Depending on what skills you exhibit, he may or may not let you land it the first flight.

For me, the most frustrating experience is the student that won't do what I tell them to do. If I want them to fly figure 8's, and they start throwing the sticks around, I'll take the plane, land it, and explain that if they don't want to follow instructions, they can find another instructor. I usually have a reason for telling them what to do, and I've explained our goals for the flight before we take off.

Again, listen to your instructor, and do what he wants you to do. You'll solo faster and be a better pilot for it.

Brad

I totally agree with you on that point. I know that I can condition thumb reflexes, try to insure that I won't have blank moments where I get left and right confused, and I can roundly anticipate what some flight dynamics challenges might be. As I mentioned I've done this a little before but didn't continue. I know I can only truely "pick up where I left off" in reality, not in a sim.

My reason for asking this was not because I'm convinced I'll be a fluent right away when I get back out there. The reason for asking is that after a lot of time preparing in a sim, I may have certain habits (for better or worse) that may not be how a student should be flying right off (or at all). So I'd like to practice a instructor session in the sim (especially in leading up to the session).

Another reason for asking this is that (despite some possible over confidence on my part) I respect the various reasons that the instructor might want to do things in a certain way. I'll be in touch with a instructor possibly some time in the next few weeks. The feedback I've gotten here gives me a better idea ahead of time about how this usually is. I was not sure how structured or freestyle these instructor sessions normally are.

I know also that at stake is not just my future flying skill, but also risk to person and property around the field, so they are right in having their way of doing things with any new comer.

Thanks, that was interesting to hear from an instructor.

There is definitely structure, but it's not as bad as it seems.

Here is some good perspective:

Imagine you lived WAAAAY out in the boonies all by yourself and taught yourself how to drive a car. You learned how to turn right and left, how to go fast, how to go slow, how to stop, etc. All in all, you can drive a car pretty well.

Now you move to a town and discover that they have ROADS to drive on. And you're not allowed to drive off them onto the sidewalks.

Not only do you have to stay on the road, but there is a line down the center and you can only drive on one side of the line!

Then there are stop signs, and crosswalks, and no passing zones. Not to mention Rail Road crossings and 25MPH speed limit in school zones when childern are present!

So it may seem like the town has a lot of "Structure", but really without it, cars would be crashing into each other all the time - not to mention all of the pedestrians that would get hit.

So when you go to a field, the first thing the instructor will show you is the traffic pattern (Or circuit, as Missileman called it). This is a rectanglular pattern with the closer of the two long legs directly over the runway.

Now, you don't ALWAYS have to stay in the "Box" but if there should ever be a mishap, of if someone calls "Coming in" (Which means he's lining up to land) you'll want to get into the pattern to stay clear of whatever may be happening.

As with what Mike advised, be ready to learn a few things from a good instructor. A lot depends on your attitude when you begin working with him. Good luck, and remember to have fun as you learn more.

A lot of good information presented here. I'd like to add that as a flight instructor, I'd do a thorough inspection of your plane (like I do for any maiden, including my own planes), take your plane up for a quick trim flight and land it, then check it over to make sure everything is still airworthy. After that I'd take it off and start having you fly some basic turns and progress from there depending on the skill level you are at. There is no way any of us can give you a specific answer as to what we, as instructors, would have you do until you are actually on the buddy box and flying the plane.

The best thing you can do is listen to what your instructor wants you to do, and try to do it as well as you can. The better you listen and work at it, the sooner you'll be solo and off the trainer box.

Hogflyer

As far as a "certain method" is concerned you will be asked to fly a particular manuever and be expected (after practice) to perform it. Soon you will be telling the instructor what manuever YOU want to do and he will be OK with this as long as it's safe (for plane and people). Then you will be critiqued on how well you perform the tasks you planned to make.

Plan your flight and then fly your plan.

I'm a volunteer instructor at our club. We have a great program that is semi-formal. During daylight savings time, we shut the field down at 4pm every Thursday. We fly until dark. During that time, only students and instructors are allowed to fly.

I always do a thorough inspection of a new plane. Usually ask another member to have a look at it as well. We have airframe and powerplant inspectors in the pits to help with linkages, motor adjustments etc..

Then I'll take the plane up for a maiden and trim it. Couple laps around the circuit and land it. Nothing fancy. Then I'll explain any adjustments that it needs and have an airframe inspector help the student with those adjustments.

When I'm working with a student, I'll explain how the buddy box works. Explain the difference between UP elevator trim and DOWN elevator trim. We'll trim the buddy box in to the master box and make sure all works the right way. Then we go up and start flying.

You WILL NOT take-off your own plane until you show me that you can land it on your own. (usually one of the last things a student learns). Anybody can take off. Takes a pilot to land it. If you can't land it on your own--then you got no business taking off.

I start off asking students to just fly the circuit--or "racetrack" pattern with left hand turns. I want to see control. I want to see you establish a given bank--say 20* and hold that bank without over-rotating as you pull it through a turn. Biggest mistake I see students making is that they start into a turn with say--30* banking--and then as they begin to pull on the elevator, they end up pulling the stick into the corner. That causes the plane to rotate into an inverted position and it's headed for the ground in short order. It's taken a lot of time to teach some of those students how to pull straight back on the elevator without pushing the ailerons over more than where they started.

Once a student can run the race track and maintain good altitude and remain steady, I'll have them reverse directions. You can do it to the left--now do it to the right. Show control and awareness of where your sticks are. Maintain altitude. No bumping up and down.

After that, I'll start slowing them down. Most students seam to want to fly at wide open throttle settings when they start. Okay by me. They seam scared that if they slow it down, it'll sink or crash. I just let them fly around at full throttle. Once they get a little comfortable with control, I'll force them to throttle back to 1/2 throttle MAX. I like to get them down into 1/3 throttle range and let them see how the plane responds at slower speeds. Left turns. Right turns. Basically, start working on throttle management. Power up to climb. Power down. Maintain orientation while working all 4 axis of the plane.

Then I'll start them on figure eights. I fly the plane straight out in front of us and go about 150-200yrds away. Then I bring it back in and show them how to transition from left to right turns and how to do a figure eight while it's coming at them and going away from them. This is all about orientation. Getting them used to the controls being reversed as the plane comes at them.

Then I slow them down to just barely flying speed. Usually about 1/4 throttle or a click either way. More figure eights. Maintain altitude. Don't over-rotate. Smooth transitions from left wing to right wing. Throttle control. Power on to get out of trouble and climb. Now slow down and get back in the groove. Transition right and left through the figure eight turns.

When they can show proficiency in all aspects of normal flight, I'll start working them on landing approaches. We start high--about 100' and 1/2 throttle. Just fly it down the runway. Make sure you fly it on your downwind leg to a specific spot before making your base turn. Make your final turn to base and keep it lined up. Maintain a centerline approach with the runway. Wings level. Use rudder to yaw the plane over the centerline.

I start dropping them down in power and altitude over the course of a few flights. Usually try and maintain 1/4 throttle settings until they get REAL good at keeping it lined up and wings level. Use the rudder to yaw the nose in and out over the centerline.

Then I'll start having them do actual approaches with power at very low throttle settings or even idle after they are lined up on final. I keep my throttle at full to get out of trouble if they screw up. All I gotta do is let go of the button and I got full throttle and control. Keep it lined up. Level the decent. Cook off some speed. Let it sink. Flare it.

My hard rules:
You will fly where I tell you, when I tell you. Show control, or you'll be watching me fly your plane.
If you want to do aerobatics-- get soloed and buy a new plane. I'm here to teach you how to fly a basic trainer. This is not "Intermediate Piloting Skills and Basic Aerobatics" class. It's STUDENT training to get you soloed and on your way in the hobby. I'll teach you basic aerobatics later on -- on a Saturday. Right now, I'm your flight INSTRUCTOR and we're here for that specific purpose. It's not play time. Make the commitment and learn to fly so that I can move on and help somebody else. We have between 15-30 students every year, I don't have time or desire to goof around all season with one guy.
Show up with a plane thats charged and ready to go. If you need help with linkages or rebuilding after a crash--CALL ME AT HOME during the week and I'll be happy to come over and help you fix it. But if you show up at the field with a linkage out of adjustment or the landing gear hanging off--you're S.O.L. tonight, because I'm here to teach you to fly. I don't fix planes at the field.
Show up!! Be here at 4pm every week. Get your name on the sign up board and get your flights in. COMMIT!! Put your time in and get the stick time. You'll never solo if you show up once a month for 2 flights. Don't waste my time. I'm a volunteer. If you want to PAY me--go ahead and show up at 5pm and waste all the time you want.

Next year, or maybe the year after that--put in a season of flight instruction. Help somebody else learn to fly. Give something back to the club. I put in around 250--300hrs per year doing volunteer flight instruction. It's your turn. Give something back and nurture your hobby by helping somebody else become addicted.

Have fun. It's a great hobby. Airplanes crash. It's the nature of the beast. Happens to everyone. When you dump one--turn to the pits and take a bow. SMILE!! It's just a toy airplane--you weren't sitting in it.

Thanks so much for the detailed replies.

Great way of putting it Actually my reaction to that is conversely that it sounds much more interesting that way. Didn't want to over-quote, but all the info there was great as to the whole cooperation between people flying and standard procedures that everyone follows. Sounds to me like that makes it more not less enjoyable and interesting. That's not to say that it isn't nice to get the air space to yourself now and then, but there's many aspects to it to enjoy and to be good at.

Thanks for detailed the account. I've been focusing a lot on how an instructor might want a session to go (and that has actually overlapped a lot with how I would want to maiden a new plane anyway; flying especially methodically and gradually testing). The detail you gave me will enable me to do that to much better effect now.

Couldn't quote everything but every reply added something and helps a lot.

I realize that the field is a shared resource that only works if people cooperate and know what to do at all times.

Taking things methodically is what I would do even if I had my very own private field (my impatience years earlier was partly due to some other factors; I had a LOT going on at the time). I'm generally very methodical about every new skill I learn, so working with the instructor will be right in line with that. These days I'm not at all in a rush to do anything that might not work out the way I expect.

Again thanks everyone. Great info

P.S. One specific question I have actually concerns the trimming. Trainers have a rather pronounced positive pitch tendency (let's call it PPT). In the sim and also flying years ago, that seemed like too much to me (not flying at full throttle). I liked to trim the tendency down a fair bit... still clearly leaving some PPT but not so very much of it. Might an instructor be in agreement with that? I can still fly with the full PPT and as I said I want to do the instruction the accepted way, but in general, given a choice, I tend to prefer less PPT. No biggy, but would be interesting to know about that.

I would love to do that someday

One thing I noticed that may or may not have been mentioned (I read through it all rather quickly and may have missed it), but I feel is very important.

The club instructor should not assume that your plane is ready to fly. He/she should pre-flight it, making sure it is airworthy, and show YOU how to do this properly. This should be done before flying it for the first time, then before flying it on each new flying day. Then, the first flight should be initiated by the instructor to get the plane airborne and trimmed out prior to handing the thing over to you. A thorough post flying inspection should be made after the maiden flight to insure nothing came loose or moved during the flight (battery pack for instance).

Then, after the end of the day, a good thorough inspection should be made to see if anything requires repair or readjustment before you fly again on another day.

Everything that has been said in this thread is applicable, of course (no, I am not giving my approval for anything, just trying to clear up one point that I feel is important to add to what has already been said).

CGr

That is important and something I'm not properly familiar with. Years ago, I had an aileron flutter and then got jammed somehow. It wasn't pretty

I had a problem with the right aileron on my Tiger 60 (second plane after my Nexstar Trainer). It was (still is.. ) an ARF. I did the bad thing of adding additional CA to the hinges after the CA had set. The aileron hinge came out. Fortunately, I caught it during a pre-flight after flying this plane for 20 - 30 flights. That halted my flying that day but I was able to fix it and fly again.

As I said, "STILL IS" because that plane is several years old and has over 100 flights. I recently sold it, and hopefully the person I sold it to will get as many flying hours as I did. And I hope he pre-flights it..

CGr

All conventionally configured aircraft will demonstrate a pitch change and deviation from the trim speed with any change in power. With one exception of a high pylon mounted engine the airplane will pitch up with increased power and pitch down with a power reduction. In other words the trim speed changes. You can trim the airplane perfectly for any given power setting but any later power change and it will be out of trim.

In your early flights the instructor/mentor will most likely do the trimming for you and/or talk you through some trim changes. At some point you must learn to do in flight trimming and its not hard but a surprising number never learn this skill.

I am not sure what mode you will be flying but I only teach mode 11, having always flown mode 1 from my first reed sets until about 12 years ago I decided to make the change. Flying mode 11 I have the students set at home in front of the TV with the tx in hand and practice finding the pitch and roll trims (mode 11 right stick) with their left thumb with out ever looking. In this way they never let go of the pitch and roll stick (which is likely they are holding pressure on since we are trying to trim anyway) and never take their eye off the airplane.

John

I've trimmed for half throttle and slightly above with well powered plane. That answers my question though. I'll work more on trimming pitch for different situations. Normally I've compensated for slight variations from the trim setting with the stick while managing to not be bouncy. But I'll focus more specifically on pitch trimming from now on. Good point.

I've practiced trimming generally without looking down and feeling where it is, but not enough. I'll do that more.

Thanks

So go out to the field and watch for awhile. You'll see the answer to most of your questions.

And after watching for awhile, ask who the instructors are and ask them any questions you still have.

It's good to plan ahead, but the real limitation you're going to find in "what an instructor wants" is going to be the instructor. And the limitation on that is who shows up that day to instruct. Heck, there isn't a universal instructor certification that clones them. What you encounter is what you're going to get. So think about planning that detail ahead of time.

Yep I've been looking at the near term forecasts for when the weather starts looking up and I'll go to the field just to watch and chat.

This thread has definately helped me to know better what generally to expect which I think will make me much better prepared to get the most out of the instruction from the start.

I learned a lot, Thanks

I'm generally NOT in favor of doing a few basic circuits around the pattern, then learning to land. I teach the same basic turns and such, but I like having the students learn basic acrobatics before putting them to the stress of learning to land. This is so they get used to unusual aircraft attitudes several mistakes high, plus it is usually the type of flying that they want to do anyway. Learning to do loops, rolls, cuban eights, split S's and the like speeds up learning left from right, and recovery when they make a mistake later. Slow flight and placing the model over specific points of the field are also included, and the final workup to landing.

Take-offs are done by the student very early, as it seems to be as large of weakness for most non-students as their landings. I don't consider anyone that needs to takeoff directly into the wind an acomplished pilot, and without proper crosswind techniques, they are dangerous.

In other words, very few of us are not constantly learning and improving, or should be.