Yup, that's a pretty good rule of thumb.

I prefer soft cuts on the ESC though in case my plane is a bit too far out if I forget when I hit the cutoff.

You guys got me; I'm going to go nitro. I was pricing planes with two nimh packs. Lipos are more expensive and needy than my ex was! Also, I'm a pretty busy guy, and don't expect to have lots of days flying, so when I do, I want the most out of it. And I get bored as much as anyone else, so that post about losing interest in electrics really spoke to me.

I'm strongly considering the Hobbico Avistar 40 Select 4-channel RTF 59". It has ailerons, which I like, a futaba 4ch radio which I can use on my next (lo-wing) plane when I get there, and is an "advanced" trainer, so I'm hoping it can do a little more than a basic trainer.

Second choice is the Hangar 9 Alpha Trainer, but I don't think this one has ailerons.

anyone know what the difference between the "flat bottom" wing on the basic trainer, and the wing on the Avistar is?

Thanks everyone for all the help.

Yes it has ailerons.

I don't think I've run into a Nitro trainer that doesn't.

I purchased a .40 sized version for my 10 year old daughter to use.

It was a wise choice and she has done wonderfully with it.

After I showed her that all she had to do to land it was line it up and chop throttle, all aprehensions of crashing the plane for her were gone.

SIG Kadet Senior and Seniorita kit build has only 3 channels. (I modified mine by adding strip ailerons and removing dihedral)
jerzdvt, either of those choices will do you fine.

I love my avistar, it was my 5th plane, it is a great flyer and slows down nicely for landing, i'm running a TT PRO.36 with a 11x5 APC prop, i think the RTF version comes with a OS .46LA, this should be a good setup and i will suggest a 11x5 prop on that engine. My first engine was a OS .40LA and like i said in my second post to you all i had for field equipment was an old 12" broomhandle a dubro glow ignitor and a manual fuel pump mounted on my jug. I don't think you'll be disappointed.

Redmax is my supplier. I buy 12 gallons at a time. Goes fast when you burn 16 ounces or more in a 6 lap heat. Yup, the 30 oz tank does take lots of space. That's why you need to use the superpicominimicro servos with the unobtanium gears.

Good choice!
Dare I say, another good choice?
To get the most out of a flying session, invest in a larger capacity receiver battery, and get a second transmitter pack, but not right away. It won't set you back too much and will significantly extend the amount of time you can fly. However, bear in mind that when you're first starting out there's a limit to the number of flights your mind can handle in one session. Once you reach that point, it's best to hang it up and come back another day.
Personally, I'm not a big fan of RTF packages. They're good if you want a quick fix, but IMO, you miss out on some valuable learning that you'll receive by choosing an ARF, selecting the components and then putting it all together. With an ARF, you also get to choose better components, which will give you more choices later. It's still pretty cold up your way, right? If you get an ARF, or even a kit, you'll have plenty of time to get it flight worthy before the snow melts.

Yes, its cold, and SNOWING!!! It will be a while. I have returned to college (actually a mechanical engineering major looking to work with Boeing or NASA this summer...I'm PSYCHED!) so I am on a TIGHT budget. RTF is a nice deal for $300 with digital radio. Also, I rent an apartment and have 3 roomates, so my space is really limited to my bedroom; not really room to build things. An RTF I can hang from the ceiling, and build a little shelf for the nitro and accessories, immediately so nothing will break before its assembled.

If I had room (and time!) I'd love to build one, hoping that will be the case for #2 next year.

Snow? What's that? I hear you on the budget and space limitations. Sounds like a kit is definitely out for now. Bear with me for a bit more clarification on RTF vs ARFs and then I'll give it a rest. Is this http://www.towerhobbies.com/products...co/hcaa16.html the Avistar RTF package you're looking at? If so, note that it comes with an OS .40 LA engine. While the LA engines are often maligned, they are actually decent economy engines. However, the .40 LA is anemic compared to many of the .45ish ball bearing engines with more powerful porting. If you start with the .40 LA, chances are quite high that you won't want to use it in your second plane, unless you buy a largish .25 size plane and stuff it in. It's unlikely that you would be happy with the performance of the .40 LA in any of the low wing .45 size planes. The .40 LA just isn't strong enough. So, it would be good to consider a more powerful engine from the beginning.

There are several decent .45 size ball bearing engines in the sub $100 range. It's been a while since I ran the numbers, so I did them again. Note that the following scenarios do not include shipping.

Figuring in the current discounts at Tower, which will end tomorrow (but there will be new ones soon after), buying the Avistar ARF, a Futaba 4YF radio (basically the same as the 4VF that comes with the RTF version), and a Magnum .46 would cost $254.97. The price of the Avistar RTF (factoring in discounts) is $254.99. Upgrade to the Thunder Tiger Pro-46 (I think TT engines are better made than Magnum) and the price will go up to $279.97. From a price perspective, the ARF and RTFs are in the same range. From an engine perspective, you're getting a much stronger engine for the same price.

Now, if you're interested in saving some $ (and what college student isn't?), consider the Tower Trainer instead. Buying it with the Futaba 4YF and Magnum .46 would cost $219.97. Upgrade to the TT Pro .46 and it'll run $249.97. Even the RTF package comes with the Tower .46 (mixed reviews on this engine), which will be much more powerful than the OS .40 LA in the Avistar RTF package.

These are just a few examples. There are many more choices.

A downside to the ARF is that you will have to do a bit more assembly than an RTF. This includes gluing the wind halves together, gluing on the tail surfaces, perhaps gluing in the hinges for the control surfaces, mounting the engine, installing the radio, etc. None of this is difficult and the instruction manuals for the beginner planes usually cover these details very well. The upside is that by doing this assembly you are much more familiar with how to assemble and adjust your plane. You'll have a better idea of the things you should inspect before and after each flying session and will know how to make adjustments when something is no longer working right. The skills you learn on an ARF trainer will be a great help when you begin work on your second plane, which may not include instructions that are as thorough.

So anyway, that's the background on why I suggest ARFs instead of RTFs. In the end, the important thing is to choose the one you're most comfortable with, find an instructor, and get out and fly.

PS. They do make [link=http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0095p?FVPROFIL=++&FVSEARCH=snow+skis&search=Go]snow skis for planes[/link]!

Thanks.

"Bear with me for a bit more clarification on RTF vs ARFs and then I'll give it a rest"...no need to give it a rest, I like to learn as much as possible. I will price out some ARF's.

I didn't think the tower trainer had ailerons, which is something I really want. Right now I was looking at buying the Hangar 9 Alpha 40 DSM2. The engine is a Evolution Trainer Power System engine. They don't say what size though. I read up on and saw a video for the .455 size, and they ran a trainer at really low speeds, then removed all the Power System components and ran a sea plane taking off from grass with ease. It comes with the Spektrum DX5E, which is a 5 channel programmable radio. All this for $299. If you think I can do better with ARF than I'm definitely willing to do so, i.e. if the Evolution .40 is too small, or the 5chDSM2 is not that much of an advantage, I can look at bigger engines with a JR sport or Futaba 4yf radio with an ARF.

The Evolution TPS engine is an odd sized .455.

It is comparable to a standard .46 in terms of power.

The plane comes with a prop that purposely tones down the performance of the engine, for newbies, making the plane slow and easier to control.

Later you can change the prop to a standard 11x6, and the performance will increase greatly.

The TPS engine also has a removable 2oz flywheel on it. This helps to keep the engine rotating at idle, preventing deadsticks and engine outs.

The idea is to make the engine as newbie friendly as possible...

Unfortunately many of the engines arrive with the limiters set so the point you want to move the needle to, is just beyond what is permitted by the limiters... so most people end up removing the limiters.

My experience has been that about 70% of the PTS engines come with the limiters within the right range, and the other 30% require that the limiters been removed or reset to permit additional needle movement.

The Alpha is a great trainer plane. I selected it for my 10y daughter's trainer.

Getting it ready couldn't be simpler... just put it together, adjust the throws and surfaces, start the engine and tune, then fly.

No break in, etc.

Later change the prop, and it's a more sporty flyer.

The components will transfer to another plane later if desired.

The new Alpha will do everything you want and with 2.4 to boot. It's should be out in April or May. Dennis

Argh. This whole time I was looking at Red Rocket Hobbies website at the H9 Alpha. You can buy it now, but I didn't realized it said "Pre Order"! I have to be in the air by the beginning of May so I can get some training time before I leave town for the summer.

So, if I'm looking at ARF's, is there an engine company to avoid? Are any of the .40's suitable for second plane, or should I get a .46?

Tower Trainer http://www.towerhobbies.com/products/towa1110.html had ailerone.
[/quote]
Right now I was looking at buying the Hangar 9 Alpha 40 DSM2. The engine is a Evolution Trainer Power System engine. They don't say what size though. I read up on and saw a video for the .455 size, and they ran a trainer at really low speeds, then removed all the Power System components and ran a sea plane taking off from grass with ease. It comes with the Spektrum DX5E, which is a 5 channel programmable radio. All this for $299. If you think I can do better with ARF than I'm definitely willing to do so, i.e. if the Evolution .40 is too small, or the 5chDSM2 is not that much of an advantage, I can look at bigger engines with a JR sport or Futaba 4yf radio with an ARF.
[/quote]
A 2.4 system is definitely more future proof. The question is do you start with a basic FM system now and switch later, or do you spend the extra bucks up front? I can't answer that one for you, you have to decide on your budget. A basic 4 channel radio will get you through the first plane or two. Once you are past that you may want a few more channels, computer functions, etc.

IMO, get something in the .46 range rather than a .40. As far as engines to avoid, such a discussion could start wars. Stay with a name brand (OS, Thunder Tiger, Super Tigre, maybe a few others) and you should be ok. Before you choose anything, it wouldn't hurt to get in touch with your local club. Instructors often have preferences and going with them might make the learning easier. For example, you need to be sure your radio is compatible with the buddy box that your instructor has.

Some LHS's also have new pilot packages.

One of our local stores gives you an additiona 15% off on a trainer if you are a club member an about to go through training.

This is in addition to any of their other discounts and promos, so it's a pretty good deal.

I just recieved a Tower order and was looking thru the coupons and i know we talked you into glow but i will let you know that the Hobbico Electristar Select EP RTF is $100 off for $199 in case your still on the fence. The coupon stock # is VC1011** and ad #01132

Now I like that..

That looks like quite a deal. Equip it with nimhs and the total price would be pretty good. It even comes with a better radio than many of the other RTF choices.

Unfortunately the Electristar needs 2 nimh batteries to fly; I'd need a dual charger and at least 4 batteries to start with. Now it's over $350 =(

What kinds of extra building supplies are needed to assemble an ARF, in addition to Radio, engine, etc.?

When you transport a plane, does the wing come off in two halves?

What is a dead stick?

I can tell ya this. The pattern folks pour some money into their electric planes, especially the guys that are up there in the Master or FAI class. These ships are equipped and what is needed to keep them flying is off-the-charts!!

One guy, a very accomplished FAI level pilot, has a Honda generator that he brings with him, obviously he has a large cargo van.. and a charging system that would put a small nuke plant to shame. He usually brings two electric 2 meter pattern planes (hey, guys, do the math... that's almost 80 inches in length and wing-span) and a pair of glow 2 meter pattern planes each time he shows up at the field, which is usually two or three times a week starting just prior to the beginning of the Pattern season. This is big-time stuff. Puts my little Reactor and Bug with the 2 cell 480mah LiPo's to shame.

CGr.

FRABITZ.. SLSDSRu.. GDSLSDF (^*&^$&*^(&( expetive deleted... damned WINDOWS VISTA!!!!! I was in the middle of a reply and good old Vista just shut down to install an update.... jeech...

Aaaaaanyway, I will go forward.h

1. Building supplies.

Ok, well, most kits/arfs worth their salt will indicate what building supplies and non-provided accessories are needed. Usually the required build materials include:

Epoxy (5 minute and 30 minute.. five minute for non critical mounting surfaces, 30 minute for critical such as wing joints (see below) and tail feathers for instance.
Thin CA and thick CA.
typical tools... pliers, hex head wrenches, screw drivers, exacto knives, and so on.

Consult your build manual for what you will need as the barest minimum. If it doesn't lay this out for you, then choose a different model. Usually Goldberg, Great Planes, and so on, will have a list of what you need to get when you get the ARF or Kit to put it together. The engine all depends on the model you choose. Radio.. well, I am partial to Airtronics and Spektrum. Others are Futaba fans, and yet others JR and Hitec.. and others. You choose what you want, but I can heartedly endorce the Airtronics RD6000, RD8000, RDS8000 (their new 2.4 GHz version of their RD8000 system.. and at a great price of $230). I really like my Spektrum DX7 system, the cost is more than the Airtronics, but it is a great radio.

Again, the engine is all dependent on the airframe you select. I opt for the larger end of the spectrum of choices.. if it calls for 40 to 60 size two stroke, I would go 60. You never have to much power (well, you know what I mean.. you obviously cannot put an OS 1.20 AX on a 40 size trainer.. well, you can but it won't do much for you.. ) Look over the choices that the manufacturer recommends and go from there. With electric, well, you must choose the right combination of battery, ESC and motor for your size and weight of aircraft based on what the manufacturer recommends and go from there. It's not as easy with electric as it is with glow.

2. I have both two part wings and wings that have been permanantly joined. Your transport room (I have a Volvo V70 wagon so I have some room, but not as much as, say a cargo van for instance... overkill, but I'm sure you get the idea. A Mini Cooper, for instance, won't transport much. Some models will allow you to join the wings or leave them separate.. depends on the model. For instance the Tiger 60 ARF you can do either... epoxy the halves together for a solid wing or join them each time you fly. Either way, you are ok. It comes down to a matter of choice with some ARF's and with others, you must join the wing halves. My Super Star 120 ARF, for instance, I do not have this option because it is a mid-fuselage wing and it bolts to the side of the fuselage and uses a long hollow aluminum tube as a spar. It cannot be joined.

2. Dead stick. Ah yes. If you don't know what this is, well, you really need to work with an instructor. Dead Stick is a term to describe flight conditions when the engine quits. Simple as that. You are flying, in the pattern, and the engine quits. What do you do? Well, that's what the instructor should tell you and teach you, and you should practice. The first thing is situational awareness... where are you in the sky with reference to the landing and YELL OUT DEAD-STICK!!! to let others know you are having a problem.

Can you safely get to the ground without destroying your aircraft? That should really come automatically to you which is why practice and proper instruction is necessary. First you must MUST get the nose down a bit to maintain airspeed. Next, you should know this already, where is the wind coming from? You have to get it pointed into the wind AND get on the approach for a good landing, all the while the plane is losing altitude. NEVER raise the nose because that will quickly bleed off airspeed and stall.. then it's all over.

Then you have to get lined up somehow, with the runway and get it on the ground safely.

This all happens rather quickly after a dead stick and should almost be automatic... done without having to think about it. "Ah.. oops.. my engine quit. What do I do now.. should I cry or is it going to crash or or or... " Nope. Get it pointed into the wind, nose down and get it on an approach for landing. There are times when you cannot get it pointed into the wind AND get it lined up for a proper landing. So, in that case, your first priority is to get it down.. safely. So, you have to figure out what to do and how. All this takes practice.

I had an Evolution 100 engine on an Excelleron 90 pattern plane. I had that damned engine on that plane for about 6 months and in all that time, I never NEVER got to burn a full tank of fuel. When I did get the engine running so I could take off, it would die in flight and I had to dead-stick the thing to the ground. And that was often. So, I got lots of practice landing that thing and I still have it, and it still flys, only with an OS 1.20 AX engine... which is another story.

So, as you can see, there is more to this than just moving sticks around on a transmitter box and flying a model around the sky. It all takes time and practice. Your first emphasis when you solo is not to just fly, but to practice what you learned, especially emergency procedures. Do landings.. touch and goes, then climb high and pull the throttle to idle and practice dead stick approaches.. once on the center line and ready to land, throttle up and go around and do it again, but from a different location, always keeping aware of your surroundings and where you are in the sky with reference to the landing strip in the pattern.

GET AN INSTRUCTOR to help you out.

Best of luck!!

CGr