MikeL,

Please don't shut your trap.

While my intention was originally to get the beginners view point. I think anyone new to this hobby really should hear what these guys have to say both pro and con. Maybe it will help them understand exactly why some guys shy away from helping and also maybe it will help to illustrate the why to some people the thought of paid instructions is almost sacrilegious

Crashem, do people with crash in their name think the same?

Boy, I thought your posts were mine! LOL

And, yes, Rysium, please sign me up at your club...I'm moving to Sac. What a wonderful group! It sounds like the Camelot I'm going to have to pay for.....

(I sincerely mean that it sounds like a wonderful group, my friend).

Here's two cents from a newbie teen if you can believe that

On paid instruction, I totally disapprove. You have to realize that this hobby is expensive and more money is going to scare away every teen. (Remember how much money you had when you were young, compare it to the price of an electric ARF now) The future of this hobby (IMHO) is in the youth who actually spend their life savings in order to try it out, if anyone or anyclub required money in order to train, I'd go and learn on my own (especially with 25 smakaroos per hour). I live 85 miles from the nearest field and paying for training is completely unacceptable. Im not going to drive in a car for hours pay to fly for a few hours, and then pay for the gas when I get home. Its in the trainer's best intrest in order to introduce new members, especially teens. From what I hear, teen flyers are a dying breed with the advent of playstations and the such, if you make the hobby more expensive than what it should be, then people who are straped for cash will simply quit, what are they to do? If more exprienced modelers will just devote some of their time, then even the weekend "try it out"'s will eventually become part of the hobby, I'd want someone intrested in introducting new people to train me. That way I would get supurior training because that person actually cares about my flying ability and my commitment to the hobby. If they require me to pay, they most likely are thinking about there paycheck rather than my erratic flying habits. I think that those people who charge for their services are bored with training and new members if they need money for supposed "operating expenses" and that they should stop charging now. Its people like that who are shrinking this hobby. Im not saying that every trainer is like that, but it would be a better world if those that were would just change now or just leave.

(please don't take this too offensively)

Crash_N_Burn,

Yes I think people crash in their name think the same.

I'm 35 now and have been doing this since I was 15. I have an old fridge box in my basement that I got from my folks that contains the remains (those large enough to find) of every airplane of owned since then. My wife eyes it every spring during cleaning season and I just shake my head and say some people save pictures as mementos that box is my "picture" book hands off!!!

That box reminds me of all the fun I've had and I won't get rid of it for love nor money.

PS Good luck on your week long training session I'd be really intrested in hearing your comments after you have tried it

T28pilot,
As a moderator I would have expected you of all people to throughly read before replying. Since you didn't let me para-phase the question was paying for flying lessons only one response included the students own plane. " Yes-included in the price of trainer" Further more in a latter post I specifically stated that paid instruction should not only include the instructors plane it should also include all consumables like fuel glow plugs, props etc..
It is very important when joining a discussion mid stream that your do your homework and read all that has been said. this prevents one from commenting on issues that have been previously been clarified. Hope this helps

I feel a paid instructor should provide the plane. If it's the student's plane, he would have liability insurance to cover it. Mechanical/radio failures would be covered by the compensated instructor as part of the "package". Out of his own pocket.

Ideally, I believe that paid flight instruction should be undertaken away from the "club field", on the instructors own field. If it was on the club's field, a portion of the proceeds should be paid to the club for use of their facilities. Liability insurance would be the responsibility of the compensated instructor. AMA membership would be the responsibility of the paid trainer in order to access the club field.

Sorry, folks, the compensated training aspect would become a business, and not a hobby, and would, or should, be run as such.

Sounds sad, I know. but I really believe there are benefits for everyone.

An option, yes?

What I don't understand is why the idea of paid instruction is contentious. It already exists, being done both by individuals and businesses. The reason that it is not more prevalent is that the market value for training really is $0 for most people. That's because there are plenty of people willing to give it away for a thanks, or the simple joy of helping someone new to the hobby.

That's the barrier to entry for a prospective business owner.

Yes, there is a market to paid instruction. That market is quite small, because most people in the hobby aren't don't need to pay for instruction, or see the need to do so.

T28pilot brings up a good point. If I'm both paying for the instruction and providing the trainer, I'm holding the instructor responsible for ensuring the safety of my equipment. As Crash_N_Burn said, that is why most schools provide the equipment.

There's a distinct downside to using someone else's equipment. Part of training is learning how to set up an airplane, and learning how to correct the mistakes you made in constructing it. Radio setup, engine break-in, and preflight inspection are something that beginners should learn first hand, and on their own equipment. Learning how to tune a well broken-in engine won't help much when the beginner goes about starting up his .40LA for the first time, or has problems adjusting the mixture on his engine.

Paid instruction really does need to happen at a private field. I'm not giving up my flying time so that some guy who's in it for the money can have his student up in the air by himself. I'm willing to share, but the student isn't getting his money's worth if they're sitting on the ground waiting for me to finish.

All in all, there are just as many downsides to paid instruction as there are to non-paid instruction. In the end it's the quality of instruction that matters, and in no way does paying for instruction guarantee that the quality will be any better.

t28Pilot,

Sorry for the harsh response.. No you don't have to sit in the corner but don't expect any desert after dinner young man

The only reason why I even responded was because many people have epressed opinions and given reasons to support said opinions thatare so far of topic. Yes, I know when you ask a question on RCU you should be prepared for all respones. I just don't understand why so many people are threatened by the mere suggestion of providing OPTIONAL paid instruction. It's not like the paid instructions are going to hire Vinnie no-neck to come rub them out if they don't get at of dodge.

Horrace, I'm sorry if it sounded like I am against the choice. I can't remember wherever I said that, but I'll humor you. If the choice exists at the very least my club wouldn't pay any fee to alow it at the field. However, I just think paying for instruction for flying a toy plane is silly. Why pay for something when you can get it for free? For the business entrepeneurs out there, good luck. However, if you come to my field you'll be competing against some very good, friendly and talented flight instructors that don't charge anything.

Besides, this thread is about whether you would pay for instruction, not whether there should be a choice. Just making sure you're on the right page here.

Horace... I have read YOUR proposal very well.
I am very aware of what YOUR proposal suggests.
However, if you think that you're the only one with an eye toward
the dollar in RC flight instruction, then you are sadly mistaken.
If you think YOUR way is the only way that will ever be discussed, you are wrong.

My comments were made for all eyes, not just yours.
This thread did mention your post, but hasn't stuck entirely to it, in the first place.
Probably the experienced pilots here shouldn't have even responded at all.


At any rate... your condescension habit is a bit unbecoming.


The single bone of contention mentioned in your letter to the EC was stated this way:
The resolution of that can take MANY forms, not necessarily the one YOU suggest.
As such, some of us believe it's better to not even consider it.
Some of us believe the AMA should NOT recognize and/or provide insurance for
commercial instructors or institutions on AMA sanctioned fields at all.

I stand by my opinion (you know... other people DO have them) that the commercial
instructors and flight schools can find their own insurance, and their own fields.

IF the AMA wants to provide such insurance to instructors/schools, that's fine.
IF the AMA wants to allow paid instruction on AMA club fields, IF the club wants- Fine.

Let the schools/instructors... not the clubs... work that insurance out with the AMA.
Don't involve the club charter with it, is MY opinion. Allowing paid instruction at
AMA fields should be at the discretion AND pricing schedule of the individual
CLUB, and not tied to the club's charter with the AMA. The clubs themselves should be
deciding if and/or when this instruction could occur, and how much it costs the flight schools.

People pay for tennis lessons, heck, people pay to learn how to use Quicken and its so easy a dead hamster could use it.

I think the important question here is whether having paid instructors would be good for the HOBBY.

Our training night was great, but there were about 4 instructors and about 6 students. 3 of the instructors liked to haze newbies, smoked alot, and didn't do much teaching. They mostly stood beside you and looked bored.

I would have paid to have the good instructor to myself for an hour or two. I would pay now to have a couple of private sessions with my new 4*60.

Obviously, paid instructors would have to compete with free instructors, so they would pretty much have to develop a good reputation.

Obviously, if they use club facilities for profit, they would have to make appropriate arrangements with the club. (But how many people go fly on Tuesday night?)

Finally, what about this hobby is free?

Who said this hobby is free? People pay enough to get into it, and I see no reason to pull more money out of their pocket when I help them out. If you really want to pay your instructor then I can't stop you. I've had offers to pay me but have refused every time. If you lived near me I'd be out there helping you learn aerobatics with your new 4*, as I've done with many people. Maybe you could talk to that one good instructor and meet with him at a separate time, so you could have him to yourself? If he's a motivated, energetic instructor like it sounds that he is, I'm sure he'd be happy to help you out.

Not necessarily.
All they'd have to do is get to the newbies first... and expound upon the
many pleasures and benefits of paying for instruction with a "professional"
flight instructor, versus "settling" for "free" instruction with the non-professionals.
You think the "pros" wouldn't be slanting the "frees" off as giving inferior instruction?
A good slick salesman can brainwash the uninformed in short order.

Does it affect me? Probably not, as long as I'm not a member of some sellout
club who sets aside days or times for "paid instruction only", and those happen
to fall on my only offdays. So no, it probably never will affect me at all.

Just giving my $.02, that's all. (I know, I'm up to a dollar and a half by now)

One question and one comment.

Question:

Which one was you? The ONE teaching or one of the "HAZERS"?


Comment:

I feel sorry for the one instructor that had to seemingly do everything, while the other three slackers wasted everyones time.
And I wonder why the GOOD ONES burn out.

Out of the four, gues which ones will want to get paid.

I must be slow, because I still don't get it. What will the paid instructor give to the newbie, that can't be given by club's instructor? What are the resources you are talking about, that can't be given by club?
- Flying field is full? So you think the newbie will payoff all the guys to go away because he is going to take a lesson? If so, let's say now the guy paid couple hundred dollars and he can fly. Where? The club is full. On his backyard? That maybe makes sense, somewhere in deep Arizona, but not at least in Sacramento area. Unless you are so rich, that you have your own flying field, but then you can afford to hire a full time instructor. I don;t have a problem with that.

We don't fly for living. For us it's a fun. And I'm that kind of guy, who want's to share this fun with others. I wouldn't even show up at the field when everybody will ***** me, just because I'm a new in this business, and will like me, because I'm paying them to back off.
I have much better ideas of spending free time than fighting with the people. I would rather take a park flyer and fly on my street.

And answering you question, yes - you may join us any time. Be nice and helpful to others and share the fun.

RysiuM

IMHO, I think that before anyone delcares that "most clubs have plenty of volunteer instructors" this declaration should be proceeded by stating "I have interviewed all of the 2600 AMA clubs and found that most clubs have plenty of ready, willing and always available volunteer instructors"

The paid instructor market is small, mainly because of the blatant hostile reactions exhibited by the experinced flier ONLY in "most clubs". Other than that, there isn't really too many people qualified to make such a statement, certainly not someone who may only have very limited experience in his own club or a couple of others, then only hearing the side of other experienced fliers and not that of the beginners patiently waiting for their once a week ten minute lesson. In other words, this would be in the area of market research.

Obvously, the owner of the First US Flight School must know something that no one else knows because he is pulling in $2400 a week and this is usually from members fed up with waiting for the so-called "free" club instruction. Then there are those beginners who have no wish to join a club and have their own property to fly on but have been left with no choice but to join up to learn. The volunteer says to learn at his convenience and on his terms or forget about it. In other words, the newbie has no choice in the matter. The idea is offering a choice, but it seems that there are those who are bent on not allowing such a choice, hence the small paid instructor market.


nascarjoe

To say that the market is small because people protest may not be all that accurate.
Almost every new product has a "small market" at first. (Think Home PC's )
Paid RC instruction is going to be very much a niche market anyhow.
I'm definitely not saying there isn't a place for it, however. I'm positive there is.

And we're not out for killing "choice" or "options". Well, I'm not, anyhow.
For myself, I'm just saying let them work out their own insurance and property deals.
I just personally don't believe the AMA should be involved with it.

Those people who never want to join a club, and have their own property?
Let them get paid instruction if they desire. On their own property, or their instructor's.
Why involve the clubs that they want nothing to do with in the first place?

Sense This would be a choice, CLUBS could choose not to Participate at all, they may choose not to allow Individuals to use thier fields By paid instructors. ALL anybody is really asking the AMA for is the option of buying additional insurance if they choose to have such a program or choose to allow paid instructors to use thier field the instructor could Buy additional insurance to cover the Club and Land owner. Nobody wants th change the way clubs have been doing things , but thier are clearly areas and people who would be willing to pay to get more for thier time.

I'm not sure I understand why so many people think this idea is an offense against god.

I don't think that there is 100 percent satisfaction with free instruction and paid instruction would only be another option.

Simply whining that a paid instructor might not be any good, or would be less good than a free one doesn't make sense since you'll see bunches of posts saying their free instruction was less than perfect.

Let me be clear, I enjoyed my free instruction, although it had problems, but I might have gotten started several years earlier if I could have paid for lessons.

You just proved my point. How many members from other clubs feel that same as you? If all clubs are dead set against paid instruction, and the paid instructor doesn't want to make it a full time business, the club field is the place to go. Maybe it's just that someone wants to help beginners get more flight time.

The difference between the volunteer and paid instructor is if the instructor is paid by the hour, he is now obligated to give his student/customer a solid hour of instruction. Now the student has a "right" to DEMAND satisfaction.

As someone else pointed out, if both the student and instructor are AMA and club members, where's the problem? AMA has stated that it's OK for the club to pay the instructor. Perhaps, the club could make a deal to get a percentage of the instructor's take. If the paid instructor won't go for it, then the club's members could vote down the idea of paid instruction. The student pays the club, and the club automatically takes its cut and pays the instructor with the rest. That way, literally everyone wins.

But it seems that those who already know how to fly have their minds made up that paid instruction is wrong, wrong, wrong and no amount of logic will change their minds - nevermind what the beginner may decide.

nascarjoe

What I think bottom line, after going through this whole thread. (Like my thinking matters)

1. I know this went off topic about the AMA, but it is a good discussion.

2. If clubs want to pay instructors, then let them pay them, but don't charge new members a hourly rate. New members usually have to pay a start up fee anyway, so use that money to pay instructors.

3. Clubs that do as stated in #2 should supply the trainer for instruction only.

4. Someone wanting to make a business out of instructing, this is fine too. Apparently after reading this, there is a group wanting this service. (supply and Demand).

5. Someone making a business out of instructing should be someone who can teach beginner, intermediate and advance training. (True experience and knowledge of all aspects of the hobby should be important, from figure eights to knife edging)

6. Some one making a business out of instructing should have there own field (and the AMA could insure this property with the individual)

7. As long as there are kind hearted people in the hobby, there will always be free help.

If you regularly accept money for instructing students, you have started a business.
All I'm saying is treat it like a business, and don't expect any special treatment.
Full-time or part-time, business is business.
Those who want to accept money to teach will find a way, I've no doubt.

Its already been established that there will likely be a market for it, and that's great!
The ability to run a small business in this country rocks! Choice rocks!

I don't think anybody is out to kill either.
Heck, I may come up with an RC-related small business Idea myself, some day.
Just don't try and play it off like it's something other than a business venture.

I don't feel that all paid instruction is "wrong".
It's not what I would choose, but there are evidently some who would.
Just don't try and fold it into a non-profit hobbyists' insurance organization.
(Or at least, let them create a separate branch for that, perhaps)
That's my main point, I guess.

But on that note, I'll bow out of this "discussion", as it seems to be stagnating.
I'll just agree to disagree on any further points and let it go. (Or at least give it a good try)

What on earth are you talking about this thread started out as a way to gauge what beginners thought about having the option to pay for instruction.

BTW No one said the instructor should get any special treatment. The way I see it the instructors would be generating more revenue for the club.

I keep seeing this continued notion that this would be a choice for the individual clubs to make , if it could stay that simple that would be fine , except at that point what would be the choice of the newbie who is limited to one club in the area ,????? exactly they would have no choice but to do what the club is doing , as it stands , the fliers , modelers have the choice , just open the doors on your field and training school, and those who want to pay will, those who dont will seek the help of the club trainers , not a hard thing to understand ,unless the actual reason for AMA to get involved is to fund the business venture ,and somehow give legitimacy to those who wish to charge for their service

Highlander

I'm with C_Watkins on this one. Frankly, I'm wondering what agenda some folks are really pushing here. It's time to disclose that.

There must be some agenda, because paid instruction certainly exists now. What is the point of this thread?