Am I missing something? The whole RC flying thing - is it a business or hobby? Did you join a "Small Business Organization" or "Hobby Club"? I think I remember right, that AMA club is a "non profit organization". It doesn't make money, it doesn't pay taxes. So let's keep it that way.

What I'm trying to say is, don't let "the business" take over our joy. Our club will be as we make it. If we turn it into "pay here - get this" machine it wont be fun any more. Does the club's president do his job for 20 bucks an hour? No! Does the Safety officer watch the flying site to be safe for 20 bucks an hour? No again! So what makes the Instructor so special, that he must be paid to train new members? What is the benefit of that? Will he do his job better if he is paid? If so, that I wouldn't want to deal with such guy.

Think about it. The club is us. If we decide to stop recruiting new members because the field is crowded, because we don't want to grow, that's fine. We don't need to train new people any more. The paid instructor will not help the new guy to join our club - it's closed. Finito.

Another words saying, if your club needs new members, you have to train them first (safety first !!!). And you train them for the benefit of the club, not the instructor. The only way I can think of having the paid instructor is, that club doesn't have anybody, who has the skills and the time. But then the club should hire him (the same way, the club hires the guy to mower the grass).

I hope I expressed my point and I will not to add anything else to this discussion.

RysiuM

Mike,

I think crashem started this thread trying to see how beginners felt about paying for instruction. I have to agree that this thread has gotten way out of hand for beginners. We enjoy babbeling on and on about subjects like this, because we like to debate. But, I don't think that but only a few beginners would get through two pages of this before getting bored to death and moving on. I say start a new thread and ask for newbies only to answer why or why not and there reasons. That way we can still debate and refferance the other thread.

What do you think?

MikeL:"I'm with C_Watkins on this one. Frankly, I'm wondering what agenda some folks are really pushing here. It's time to disclose that.

There must be some agenda, because paid instruction certainly exists now. What is the point of this thread."

The point of this thread was to get some true Beginners to voice some thoughts of having paid Instruction available. As I said "WAS".

The original point in the Proposal submitted to AMA (AMA Forum) is to simply obtain AMA's consideration of restructuring the AMA Insurance program to allow for those Clubs that choose to do so to allow PAID FOR INSTRUCTION on that Club's facility, with the details of pay to be between the club and the individual instructor.

The AGENDA within that proposal is simply to motivate MORE individuals to make themselves available to assist Beginners in a better scheduled time-frame and to remove the load that a few individuals get far too over-burdened with. There is NO mention, plan, hidden agenda, etc of doing away with free instruction.

In 30+ years of RC, I have found that in any one club a very small minority of individuals -- like about 2% at most -- do all the instructing and it does get old. Examples:

1. Those that are newly soloed are not competent to instruct.

2. Those that are passing through this *COOL* sport are gone within a couple years or so and are far too into themselves to instruct and seldom obtain adequate experience to do so.

3. The Competition Fliers are far too into themselves preparing for the next contest, which is usually the next weekend or so and they are unavailable to instruct. (BTDT)

4. Those that simply like to bore holes in the sky with their latest GIANT toy have no interest in anything else and don't have time for anything outside their own small world.

5. A number of good people have to earn a living outside the 9-5 weekday time, therefore cannot plan to be available for the newbie at the newbie's choice.

6. Newbies also have time constraints and cannot therefore meet the casual instructor at the instructor's choice.

Therefore as mentioned in the original proposal, if AMA could restructure the insurance for the Club / paid instructor relationship, then perhaps those that don't now get involved in instructing could be motivated to find a better schedule to do so, like the hot RCer teen ager that works tin the grocery store just might prefer instructing all weekend, and same for retires, disabled etc. that need to supplement their income.

In addition the proposal contains provisions that would prevent any use of facilities not approved by the Club. IT'S ALL THE CHOICE OF THE CLUB. Of course that is like STATES RIGHTS, which is the most hated thing by the total control elitists. FREE CHOICE is difficult to swallow by those that are NOT used to doing the work that others do.

So there's your point!

Hossfly,

That pretty much sums it up. Funny how so many seem to be so threatened by something like this.

Nukes,

Yes correct in your assumption as to the original intent of this thread. But heck any beginner who gets bored after reading the first 2 pages of this doesn't have the dedication for this hobby and shouldn't receive free help!!

Good point.

Hossfly,

Fine an dandy, but don't make a newbie pay out the wa-zoo for instruction on top of club annual dues, club joining dues, and equipment.
Club joining dues should at least cover this instruction. Or at least offer a club trainer. Want to pay the instructors, pay it out of club money for at least a set time limit.

Least you all forget, this is and can be a very expensive hobby to start out in and maintain. If you got the extra money for a personnel instructor, by all means spend it. Keep our economy strong. I just don't want to see the option for pay vs free waste away, because of greed.

Maybe the AMA should work on a certification program for instructors that want to get paid. Make them show they are quilfied to teach.

Actually thats the answer.

Instead of more insurance the AMA should make Paid instructors take a written and flight test to get certified to teach. Along with their yearly fee for certification they could include insurance to the instructor for non AMA insured students at no extra cost.

Horrace and Crashem,
Do either of you have a desire to be a paid instructor?

LOL

Nope, But when I was learning I had a desire to pay an instructor. Took for ever to find a place and person willing to teach me. I finally had to buy another plane from the guy at the LHS in order to get help!!!! That's one of the reasons why I find it so amusing when I here free instructions.

Even though I have read this entire forum and I have even posted I feel that nobody has heard me, even when they are complaining about no nubies replying!!! I'm starting to feel drowned out :drowning: . My first post was on the 4th page and no one even took notice, please read the forum better. For those that missed it, I would not and will not pay for instruction, even if the club used my sign-up money to pay the instructors, I would not join that club under any circumstances. If the club offered money to the instructors, every high ego know it all would become a supposed "instructor" to earn some free dough. I would much rather be taught by someone who enjoys the hobby for it sake itself and not for the paycheck. That way, he would care about my flying abilities and would provide me supurior training compared to an instructor with a paycheck. Its just simple common sense that this would happen 90% of the time, with the instructors that are not paid providing better instruction. Plus, teenagers are sometimes straped for cash and their parents are sometime unsupportive..... Why scare them away with more dues??! If anyone is concerned about this hobby, they would make it more accesible to teens who have spent their life savings on a trainer and need free and superior instruction, for these teens have made a commitment to stay with this hobby for life and breath life into it. Now you can keep paid instruction for those newbies who think that they need it, but I would never pay for something that you experienced pilots should enjoy doing (i'd enjoy it if i could). IMHO, keep this hobby a hobby and not a business or a fighting ground where nobody cares about each other.

(My previous post was on page 4 if you noticed, I was a little angry that day)

Ruralflyer,

I did notice your post and was going to respond about the wisdom of using "one's life savings" on a model plane but after reading the other thread you started intitled hopeless ? I figured explianing to you that if you attempt learning on your own it will cost you much more in damaged equipment then the cost of a paid instructor if you CHOSE to use one.

As far as your second reply. You sound like a spoiled kid who believes the world owes you something.

With an attitude like this I'll be surprised if you find an instructor period.

There is a difference between having a desire to do something an having the means (finnacial or otherwise) This like any other activity has costs both monetary and non-monetary. If you can't afford to particapate find something else to occupy your spare time and try agian when you are more finianically solvent or your parents become more supportive (i.e. pass out cash) but please don't whine about how expensive it is....

Hows that? I'll be sure to watch for your posts and respond as promptly as possible in the future

RuralFlyer,

Yes, I read your 1st post. You weren't ignored.

I still feel that there is a market for paid instructors. As an option not a requirement. I fully support FREE club instructors but that isn't always available. I also have friends that might be interested in RC. I think it would be a benefit if they could pay $25 and take a lesson on an instructors plane with out having to dole out hundreds of dollars on a trainer and setup equipment only to find that they really don't like it.

I hear you and support your choice not to use a paid instructor but I think it would hurt you or anyone else if you had a choice between using a free club instructor or a paid one. However, you make it sound like you EXPECT others to help you out for free. Personally I don't think that attitude will help your cause.

lol

I guess I sounded a bit spoiled!

I guess I can see that its possible to interpret this as an attempt to get rid of free training. Interpreted that way, some of the reaction to this thread is understandable. Certainly knowing how the AMA is viewed, its not hard to make the leap that the "money grubbing" AMA is going to try and force everyone to pay for lessons.

That being said, I think the message from many (not all) of the beginners or recent beginners can be summed up as:

We would consider paid instruction under many circumstances:

For our convenience (time)
To get a good instructor
To get more advanced training
To get more personal attention and more (faster) air time

Everyone agrees that the club SHOULD benefit if an instructor does.

However, I think its obvious that very few clubs could survive long if they went to a purely fee for training model.

So, the poll is worthless as it stands, because you don't know if the only respondents were beginners or recent beginners.

ruralflyer i dont think you sounded spoiled at all, you have a very valid point and its not only teens that have lack of funds,but some of us older guys just getting into the hobby also have limited funds i have always wanted to get in R/C flying but was unable to until now i have a wife and 2 kids so money is tight i am fairly new to this and have been flying for about 6 months even tho i have soloed i still fly the same night as my teacher so i can ask questions and get more training when needed and I WILL BECOME A FREE INSTRUCTOR WHEN I AM CAPABLE. as i agree with what you said about the paid VS free instuctors the free are always going to better teachers as they do it for the love of the sport not the money thanks for listening to my rantings

MikeL: >>>>"Horrace and Crashem,
Do either of you have a desire to be a paid instructor?"
<<<<

Horrace here: Not just NO but HE_L NO!

I don't want to instruct anymore, yet I feel very guilty when I turn away those wanting instruction as there is only one person besides myself in my 100+ member club that will freely give his time to others.

MY CASE IS SO FAR DIFFERENT THAT IT CANNOT BE CONSTRUED AS AN EXAMPLE. READ IT:

I purchased 100 acres prime farmland (cash deal) for my club to buy some from me at same price I paid per acre. I now hold their mortgage. (You never hear me being a club officer.)

If I wanted to be PAID, they definitely violate adequate deed restrictions so that I could reposses the property at near any time.
I could turn this magnificent RC facility (water, electrics, kitchen, indoor facilities, 3800 sq. ft over concrete, another 1200 in the works, etc. etc. etc. into a very big RC SCHOOL. AMA be da--ed.
Or just start a school next door.

DON'T WANNA' DO THAT! Just WANNA' CLUB!

I do most of the instructing because am I a very good Instructor (Trained in instructing in USAF - taught various academics and instructed in both the T-33 & T-38 plus navigation and bombardment in SAC B-47s, 30+ years experience in RC plus over 20 years CL/FF prior to that.)

I know RC, know proper aviation procedural flying, know MODEL BUILDING from the ground up, so I am in demand. However at 67 I still want to do some advanced stuff FOR ME, FOR ME, however I find it difficult to say NO, not only for the newbie, but FOR THE CLUB.

If I wanted PAY, I can sell 50 acres next to Jetero's 30 acres now for what I paid for the entire 100 acres 7 years ago. Still would have 20 acres for down the road.

I wanna' TURBINE. I wanna' train myself with my TWO DF jobs that I haven't yet got together. Both or B Violett's kits.

I'm running out of time. AMA's childish attitudes -- and these threads portray a lot of childish immaturity within these ranks -- simply keep me tied down, along with a 100 or so people all discussed in post 106.

Every time I tell a beginner it's too windy for him, I feel that ol' conscience start to pain. Yep, I do have one. However the pains are getting more frequent!!! Know whut Ah meannn???

I for one have always had limited funds!!! the difference is in how I choose to spend my limited funds.


This wasn't an issue about money since paid instruction would be offered in addition to the traditional instruction.

But I have to tell you I got a real problem with the attitude of any new guy who comes up to me with a plane, radio, and gear then WHINES about not having the money to pay someone to teach them. That in an of itself says something about that person. Maybe its just me but I like to be able to pay my own way and not "owe" anyone if possible.

After the last few posts is no wonder that the newbie's have an attitude problem, Being called names !
Hang in there ruralflyer. Most old foggies like me love the sport and will instruct as long as the hot dog's stay cool!!!!

Thanks outlaw, i put so much attitude in those forums in order to be heard. Guess I was heard the first time, sorry to anyone I offended, did not mean for that to happen, new at this you know.

OK, here my take from one that is paid and also recieves no pay. I instruct at our field at no charge to those that I teach, and feel that this is my way of giving back to the modeling communitte what was given to me many years ago. On the other hand, I teach a group that is being paid to learn how to fly. I cahrge $45.00 per hour for my time ( weekends ) and $25 per trip to the site. I feel this is only fair as the people that are being trained have to work with models on 10 hours shifts 7 days a week and are paid the bucks to do it. This is a contract position and I have to submit a praposal each year. Basically, I train the pilots, build aircraft as needed for the project and care and maintain all the equipnemt.


Fortunately, the insurance for the property covers all of us that work there, as I've just learned that AMA will not cover my paid instruction - Humm!

As far as the club, as stated above I feel it is my duty to pass along what I learned many years ago. However I am selective on the students I will train. I prefer only highly motivated students that show up on a weekly basis, have there own plane and equipment - I had to. This is not saying that I won't give a prop, screw, spinner to anyone in need if I happen to have what they need. I also feel that shudent should learn by doing and need to build that trainner or make that repair if needed.

Anyway, just my 2 cents.

Guy Fuller

Now for my two cents:

I'd pay a lot for an instructor. I've been flying for a month or two now, and I didn't have to pay an instructor. The reason I'd pay a lot: knowledge. Knowledge is worth much more than the 1/2 hour or one hour an instructor provides. I soak up all the "free" knowledge I can, including this forum, magazines, videos, flight simulator help, etc, but nothing beats one on one instruction.

As a dermatologist, I often get $150 to $200 for a 5 to 10 minute internet survey. This is a lot for 10 minutes of work, but it is not the 10 minutes, it is the invaluable information that can be gleaned.

Maybe someday I'll get into turbine jets. You can bet I'll be looking for a great instructor, and I'll gladly pay for her expertise.

Where I fly, the club is literally about 15-20 people in total
and flying is only done on Sunday mornings due to the distance the field is from civilization.

On a good day 10 people will show up of which 2-3 are learners.

In the past many people have come and gone and instructors often felt they wasted most of their mornings instructing people who would lose interest after 6 months.

The decision was made to charge a nominal fee per lesson several months ago for a number of reasons:

1. Charging money would imply that a newbie would have to be serious about the hobby and realise that he had to put something into to get something in return.

2. The club would collect a nominal revenue and instructors would not think they would have wasted their time if the newbies left as usual.

3. Due to the small size of members this money now contributes greatly to cleaning the field etc.

Hey guys what about the noob that has to operate on a shoestring budget for what ever reason. Having to pay for instruction might be the difference between a life long hobbyist or a drop out.

No argument with that. I certainly don't see paid instruction as an incentive to begin the hobby. I see BETTER instruction as an incentive, but that doesn't necessarily mean paid. As I've said before, I don't see getting paid as an incentive for people to either start instructing or make significant improvement in the instruction that they do give.

If you were burned out and didn't want to instruct any more, how much money would it take for you to rededicate yourself to it?

Just want to add a few things in here - as I am a newbie

My club offers free instruction- Which has worked out pretty good so far. But, I offered to pay at first. At my first free lesson, the instructor told me to NEVER pay for lessons. If I pay for lessons, (in the area I am in) I am just getting taken advantage of. What I have learned from the people in my group is that the repayment back to the club for the time and help they all provide, is for yourself to do the same in the future for someone else that is starting out.

But, what Lenny says kind of strikes a chord with me. Sometimes, when I go to my field, I feel bad asking these guys to help me out. They never say no, or show any signs of NOT wanting to help, but in the nack of my mind I think "This guy is thinking 'oh god,, and all I wanted to do is come out a fly for a while'"

What gets me is that for some reason the anti pay group continues to try to equate the mandatory good customer service that a paid instructor provides and the at-the-volunteer's descrection limited and the whatever few minutes he has to so graciously give to the beginner. The paid instructor most likely teaches by the HOUR, when was the last time that a volunteer had a mandatory obligation to GUARANTEE instruction an hour at a time?

Just explaining the huge difference between for-favor from paid instruction. As opposed to for-favor instruction, with paid instruction, all obligations are over and done with after the service is over. Once more, this is presented as an OPTION to for-favor instruction. Wonder how the newbie and hobby shop owner (me on both counts) who may be ready, willing and able to pay for help feels about those who already know how to fly have been trying their best to eliminate the possibilities of paid instruction altogether? It's like we (beginners) are little kids and require the adult protection from the evil and greedy paid instructor. Believe it or not, we are intelligent enough to make up our own minds one way or the other.

BTW, I too have asked for "free" help and felt bad by asking someone to take time away from their day to give me some stick time. I've also noticed one thing...although I only asked once and was promptly turned down, for-favor instruction never seem to hand out their phone numbers to beginners.


nascarjoe