Right now I have one plane (my second, Phoenix Dolphin) that is still in a box (actually still in the mail). I feel the need to start searching for #3, 'just in case'. I would love a plane that is really good at flying pattern maneuvers, yet is somewhat semi-scale looking if possible. So what makes a plane a good pattern plane? What is the difference between a pattern plane and a 3D plane? How will the Dolphin rate as a pattern ship? I think I need something with a decent roll rate.

Any suggestions for a good 3rd plane (something up from the Dolphin) that is very pattern capable would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

A good pattern plane is typically a mid wing, no dihedral, streamlined plane that will perform precision aerobatics without changing attitude throughout the maneuver. However, they can also be low wing, with very slight dihedral, but the best are not. A 3d ship will be much the same (mid or low wing), but mostly low wing with huge over-sized control surfaces. It will be constructed lighter, and will require an oversized engine (for hovering) and strong servos to move those controls surfaces.
I would not really suggest either one of those two as a third plane, especially since (by your own statement) you have not even built your second plane, let alone flown it.
However, if you insist, then you might look at the hanger nine pulse series. They are very nice flying airplanes, with good tendencies taht would make for nice second airplanes, yet they are still fairly capable aerobats. Probably not a true pattern ship by the strict definition, but definitely a point and fly machine...

Kat, one of the big differences between a pattern and a 3D is the length/width ratio. A pattern plane is usually = or a slight bit longer thatn wing span. 3D are usually shorter in length by a good bit than the wing span. Also a Pattern wing usually has a thinner wing than the 3D planes. This results in a much faster flying plane. Besides, the just look better.

At your point of flying, I would suggest that you not worry much about what the plane looks like, but how it flys.

My second plane was not much to look at, but it was a great flyer. Wing off the trainer I crashed, as well as the tail. The fuselage was home designed. I added 2 inches from the leading edge to the prop, and 1 1/2 inches frome the TE to the hinge line of the elevator. Same tail feathers as the trainer, same wing. and same motor. It was a quantum leap in flying fun though. No more flipping on it back when taxiing out to take off if the wind was up. All and all a very good flying plane.

After the trip into the fence, I built a new wing using a scalled down 4*60 wing. Even better. I finally really totaled out the plane and engine. I am serioulsy considering building a third as 1. it is a really fast build, and 2. it is a really fun plane to fly. You might consider someting like this. You can build one from scratch in a week. It is really tough in the fuselage, so your electronics usually survive a bad crash. It doesn't cost much to build. In fact, if I do build another, I think I'll do two or even three next time. Building out here means time away from the field, year round. If I go into a building frenzy, I like to make it count.

Don

Phoenix Models makes a wonderful pattern ARF called the SeaBee that is very capable of pattern style aerobatics. It sells for $99.99 same as your Dolphin .46 ARF and flies very well with any good ball bearing .46 2-stroke:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZjch3QLpdE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLvbke2moDU

I flew mine with the Magnum XL .52 RFS and it was an absolute hoot. I lost it a few weeks ago when the right aileron servo extension came unplugged. The plane rolled in from about 150 feet up and there wasn't anything I could do to stop it. Because it's a $99.99 ARF (before Tower discounts), I'll likely buy another. It's an easy build and a fantastic flying aircraft.

A good pattern plane should have mild control throws so it's smooth and not too twitchy when performing aerobatics. It should be stable and fly in a straight line like it's on rails. It should roll axially and should be balanced so it flies as comfortably upside down as it does right side up. A pattern plane doesn't self-correct like a trainer or sport plane. It will go where you point it and keep going there until you tell it to go somewhere else.

I believe that the Phoenix SeaBee .46 ARF is the best flying $99 ARF on the market today. Everybody who's mastered their "second" plane should have one of these. My buddy Fred took my SeaBee to a club meeting for show-and-tell one night while I was working. See the picture below.

bigedmustafa, I wish I had seen that before getting the Phoenix Fun Star. The Fun Star scares the, Stuff, out of me. I might just pick up on of the SeeBee's and put the Fun Star on the hangers for a while. Neet looking plane.

Don

A patter plane is very specialized for flying a pattern aerobatic routine. When set up right and flown by the right pilot they are very precise and graceful. I'd encourage you to check out a pattern contest if any are held in your area. Some people say it is boring but if you understand the skill involved it can be pretty impressive. Your Dolphin is a sport plane, not a pattern plane and could never be competitive in a competition. That doesn't mean someone can't fly pattern-like maneuvers with it though. In fact, I've heard of people flying pretty good pattern routines with Goldberg Tigers and World Models T-34's. Pilot skill likely has a lot to do with that and they'd never hold a candle to a purpose built pattern plane of course.

I am by no means a pattern expert and probably don't know 1/10 of the resources out there but this site came up first on a Google search: http://nsrca.us/

3-D is a different animal. It involves flying the plane in a stalled condition, keeping it in the air only with thrust from the prop and maneuvering by vectoring prop thrust with oversized control surfaces. I've dabbled in it and I can tell you that a good plane makes a world of difference but pilot skill is even more important. It isn't easy, at least not to do it well. To see some 3-D planes and videos, check out http://ohiomodelplanes.com/

I agree with Campgems, I wouldn't be so much concerned with the looks of a plane at this stage. I know that's hard with so many beautiful aircraft out there. Planes are like women in that regard. If you really want a scale looking 3'rd plane, look at the GP Cherokee. I just finished assembling mine and I can tell you it will be plenty good to keep just about any pilots interest.

You can cross that bridge when you come to it though. Flying has a way of treating you well and everything goes smooth then it kicks you in the a** just when you think you have it mastered. There is a lot to learn and discover. I'd recommend concentrating on what you have fr the time being. Of course as an admitted airplane addict myself, I know that's often tough or impossible to do.

There is a reason the Yaks and Extras are popular on the IMAC circuit. Although many people think of them primarily as 3D planes because of their ability, they are really designed as Pattern planes. IMAC is primarily a pattern competition, although maybe not as tough as the 2 meter pattern, its still pretty demanding.

For a newbie, the Sig Something Extra has been endorsed in the past as a good second plane. Great Planes makes an Extra 300 kit that would be a good plane to learn aerobatics. Another choice to consider the the Tower Hobbies Kaos. Its an older style pattern plane that remains very popular on the Senior Pattern Association circuit.

Find others in your club that are interested in pattern. Go to a competition and watch it in action. It will change your perspective on your flying style.

As has been said, the key to success in pattern is a plane that goes where you point it and responds smoothly to control input. This has just as much to do with the pilot as the plane. You want to learn to reduce your control inputs, not just push the sticks to the end of their travel. A good roll shouldn't test the limits of the roll rate of the plane, but should be a slowly executed maneuver that takes ailerons, rudder, elevator, rudder, and ailerons, in that order. Loops should be large circles, not egg shaped. It should take time to execute, not just yank the elevator. Up and down lines should be straight, not slowly pulling to the canopy or the belly.

Good luck, and have fun.

Brad

When I was considering starting pattern, I talked to the pattern folks about what I should get. At that time, I was flying a Goldberg Tiger 60. They told me to get the Sportsman category pattern program (flying sequences) and practice those with my Tiger 60.

That plane is fully capable of doing all the basic maneuvers required by the sportsman category (beginners level pattern) and, in fact, has been used by pattern beginners in competition, and quite successfully, I might add.

It is not an expensive plane, but is large enough to be quite visible and, if built straight, will do all of the maneuvers with authority and will do well to train you to move up to the next category, intermediate. Then, you should be able to consider a true pattern ship. One that I would suggest at that point, is the Venus 40 or the Venus II. Both are very easy builds and very VERY capable pattern planes, and will not bust the budget.

But, as I said, and as other replies stated, your focus should be to learn to fly a low wing performance plane, then to get started in the basic aerobatic maneuvers required by the Sportsman category, and an ideal plane to do that is the Tiger 60, or something very similar to that.

Remember, though, just doing the maneuvers is not enough. You must be able to take off correctly, make the appropriate turns that are clearly smooth and purposeful, fly straight (not as easy as it seems) then setup for maneuvers. All maneuvers in all categories are done in sequence and must be done that way. It's not easy, and takes a lot of practice. Be prepared to burn a lot of fuel.

CGr.

Hi Chris.

Dick.

CG is right. Pattern flying is more difficult than it looks; however, pattern aircraft fly wonderfully. They are very neutrally stable and can do just about anything you ask.

Anyway, not all pattern aircraft look the same. Some even have retracts. [8D]

Absolutely right, Nathan. I have a pair of pattern planes, one Venus II and one Excelleron 90. Both fly like they are on rails, and land like nothing you've ever flown before. Just fantastic planes. However, they do require proper care and feeding as well as good piloting. They can tend to land fast ( by nature, they are very slippery) however, are very predictable, most of them do not have bad habits.

However, I still contend that if a pilot is going to want to try pattern, and is still at the 'second plane' level, then a great, outstanding choice would be something like a Tiger 60 or Four Star 60 or something like that. They are sport aircraft, but are very forgiving and offer the visibility to see what's going on as a pilot pattern trainee is working on sharpening his/her skills.

One thing I look for in a pattern type plane is what the elevator/rudder look like, as well as the size of the ailerons. Barn door control surfaces don't cut it as far as I am concerned. Especially those with the 'counter-weights' with very small horizontal and vertical stabs. That's great for 3D but also present some pretty sharp and reactive controls. Soft, smooth, and defined is good for the beginner pattern type.

BTW, what is that aircraft in your picture? Very nice!!!

CGr.

A fellow club member flies his couple decade old Jekyll. It's a a fun plane to see fly!

Sounds like I should be in good shape with the Dolphin (copy of Four Star) then. Awesome!

Yeah, if it's a 60 size. In this case, size matters. Larger aircraft give you visibility. You can see the reactions to your inputs and correct even subtle ones. That really improves the feel you get from control, overcontrol, undercontrol of the aircraft during maneuvers and corrections come easy and quick.

I recall the first time I really watched my landings with my Tiger 60. I was landing rather close, but watched the plane as I tweeked the elevator for landing. After I realized how easy and soft inputs made a big difference, three point landings came quick and followed through after that with tail draggers. And, that was just landing. It falls true for every maneuver you make.

Here is a list, in order, of the Sportsman pattern sequences:

Sportsman

1. Takeoff (U) K=1
2. Straight Flight Out (U) K=1
3. Stall turn without rolls K=2
4. Straight Flight Back (D) K=1
5. Half Reverse Cuban 8 K=2
6. Two (2) Inside Loops (U) (Exit Box) K=2
7. Two Point (2/2pt) Roll (D) K=2
8. Half Cuban Eight K=2
9. Cobra without Rolls (U) K=1
10. Immelmann Turn K=2
11. 45 degree Down line (D) (Exit Box) K=1
12. Vertical Up line (on Center) K=1
13. Split –S K=2
14. One Horizontal Roll (D) K=1
15. Half Reverse Cuban 8 K=2
16. Double Immelmann without Rolls (U) K=2
17. Landing K=1
Total K=26

The K is called the K Factor, or level of difficulty. The higher the K factor, the harder the maneuver. The K factors can go up as high as 5.. Figure M with ¾ Rolls (Upwind) K=5, or Square Horizontal Eight, exit Inverted (Downwind) K=5. Ummm.. neither of these are in the sportsman category... they are in the Masters level. I thought I would add that so as not to scare any new potential pattern folks.

"The Box" is an imaginary area defined by a 60 degree angle from the flight line and the pilot's position on the flight line to the right and left (60 degrees right and 60 degrees left, plus 60 degrees high. All maneuvers have to be centered and equal on each side of the pilot on his/her flight station. Officially defined as "within a maneuvering area or “box� bounded by lines 60 degrees each side of center. The vertical height shall not exceed 60 degrees from the horizontal." Landing counts. A crash will equal a zero score for the whole run. So, practice landings too!! They have to look pretty and be on center.. of course..

Take a look here for the AMA rules and a complete description of the maneuvers for all classes of Pattern.

http://www.centralhobbies.com/instru.../ama_rules.pdf

CGr

It's only a 40. So maybe #3 should be a 60.

I am still buidling my Dolphin ARF...I am at the point where I need to install servos and the rudder and elevator push rods.

since you owned the Avistar as soon as it hit the ground I think it needs to count as number 2 and the Dolphin is number 3

Later
Rob

It's an Atlanta 60. The Atlanta was a very competitive model in the '80's. It has a pumped Hanno (rear exhaust - very powerful engine) with tuned pipe and full retracts. Very fun, very fast, and very slippery. This particular model is around 25 years old, still with the original paint job and monokote on the wing/stab. Fuselage is fiberglass and wings are sheeted foam (composite design, very light). The tuned pipe runs through the belly pan.

The Venus or Venus II are good entry level pattern aircraft, but I wouldn't buy one for a second airplane - and especially wouldn't buy a full blown competitive model for a while. It's nice to see beginners taking interest in the world of pattern. I firmly believe that I fly as good as I do today because of my pattern practice. Practicing for competition forces you to be disclipined and strive for absolute precision in everything you do, be it something as complex as a figure "M" with rolls or 'simple' as straight flight.

CGr, thanks for the links and info on pattern flying. Great stuff.

One of our ex club members has a pattern plane hanging on his wall. I is said to have never been flow. I think it's geting time to make him an offer. I love the looks of them. I think it was the Daddy Rabbit that was on the cover of an Model Avaiaton magazine a year or so back and I said then, gotta get one of those..

Don

Thunder Tiger has a sick looking pattern plane, Imagine 50, teamed with a TTPro 46 Engine, for $245. They sell the plane alone for $235!

http://www.thundertiger4u.com/thunde...46-p-7987.html

I wish I was good enough and could afford it! This would be my choice, judging by looks anyway.

http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXBMZ5&P=7 Venus 40 $ 159.99

http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...&I=LXFMD5&P=ML OS 46 AX $ 104.99

If you apply their $25.00 discount for purchases over $199, you have $239.98.

Not a bad deal for such a quality aircraft. And the plane is a Great Planes, the engine is an OS. What can be better than that? There are other and additional discounts you can apply to this and get the price down more than that. This is just an example. A little creative work with Tower can get you into a fine pattern plane for a very reasonable price. I owned a Venus 40 and loved it. It flew like it was on rails. Very nice. I crashed it because I panic'ed during a take off. But, I still have the wing, believe it or not. I don't know what I will do with it, but I have it. Anyone want it?

If you want more power, then get the OS 55 AX, although the .46 would be just fine. The added power of the 55 would cost about an additional 40 bucks. Still a real great deal for such quality.

CGr

Hi Don. You're very welcome. I have been a fledgling pattern type for several years now. I just can't fit in the contest schedule in my normal schedule. Jeech.. and it takes an awful lot of practice, as you can well imagine.

Can you figure out the 'Figure M with 3/4 rolls' maneuver? I know what the figure M is, (vertical M) but where do I put the 3/4 roll? It seems that there would a knive edge in there somewhere. I can see how the K-Factor for this would be 5!! Pucker factor 5 is more like it!!

One of our pattern guys just lost a very beautiful carbon composite 2 meter pattern ship. Completely destroyed it. There goes about $2500 worth of aircraft/engine/receiver/servos. He lost everything. Fortunately, he had a pair.. and won the Intermediate class with his backup-bird. We solo'ed together several years ago.. he is way WAY beyond me by now. But, as mentioned, they do fly straight, are predictable, and are fun to fly. Only they need to be piloted by someone that is prepared to fly such an aircraft. A trainer it ain't!! Definitely fun.

Nathan: That's a great looker!!! And, I imagine it flys great too. 25 years old? Good piloting skills for sure!!

CGr.

The Figure M is difficult. There's some inverted pushout and a lot of precise rudder usage required. I've been practicing them at the field with my Atlanta and can get a reasonably good one, but not perfect. Of course, there are actually four rolls that make up this maneuver, each on a vertical leg.

Beginners, don't try this at home:

Coming from the left, you go vertical (half loop) and execute a 3/4 roll (rolls to left in this example). The top of the airplane is now facing you, so you perform a stall turn at the top. You now do another 3/4 roll on the vertical downline and the right wing is now pointed at you. Pull up like normal into a vertical line (half loop) and do another 3/4 roll. The belly of the airplane is now facing you. Perform another stall turn, except with the top of the airplane is now facing away. Do another 3/4 roll on the downline and the right wing is pointed at you again. Pull out into a horizontal line like normal.

Ah.. Ok. That makes perfect sense. Now, all I have to do is give it a try. And, as I said, I can see why K=5!!

For anyone that is reading this, please understand that these type maneuvers do require that your plane is in absolute perfect trim and the center of gravity (CG) is set perfectly. Setting the trim is more than simply adjusting the trim control on the TX. It involves multiple flights and careful observation of behavior of the aircraft during extended maneuvers, such as inverted (does the nose drop or push up) or in verticals (does the nose go right or left without input from the transmitter after the first basic pull to vertical).

There is a web site, and I will try to find it, that describes the step by step process of making the mechanical trim perfect for each individual plane. Don't forget, though, "you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear". You have to build them straight before they will fly straight.

Anyway.. as I was saying...

It must fly straight (the very first basic maneuver after take-off) and make absolutely straight vertical climbs. This requires both a perfectly trimmed plane (as already said) AND real precice control on the sticks. For instance, if going vertical, pulling straight back on the elevator control stick, so that there is NO roll influence on the climb, is absolute. This requires practice AND focus without distractions. It does not come naturally. Well, for Queque, it may seem as though it does..

CGr.

Here is an outstanding PDF presentation of the Sportsman Maneuvers ( I added them all, as you can see). A great pictorial and verbal description of the maneuvers for the Sportsman class Pattern.

CGr

Never mind.. I cannot upload a .PDF I will get the link and you can download it for yourselves.

CGr.

http://nsrca.us/documents/judging/cu...rtsman2007.pdf

http://nsrca.us/documents/judging/cu...ediate2007.pdf

http://nsrca.us/documents/judging/cu...vanced2007.pdf

http://nsrca.us/documents/judging/cu...asters2007.pdf