Paulparkflyer

Hi guys,
I am just wondering if any of you being either learners like me or experienced have flown the E-flight apprentice trainer,
I touched on this in another thread but,

Although the apprentice is very forgiving and quite easy to fly once in the air I have been really struggling with it on the ground both during take off and landing but mostly takeoff,
Its what prompted my question in another thread about trike verses tail dragger gear,

I find the apprentice is extremely hard to keep in a straight line during take off until it is basically flying,
I have fiddled and adjusted the nose wheel in relation to the rudder which are on the same servo,
I have increased the size of the wheels and that has helped,
The original wheels are way too small for average grass fields for a learner,
I also feel the landing gear is too springy and the plane bounces like crazy over small tuffs of grass,

Would love to hear others experiences and opinions about the apprentice as a trainer for a totally inexperienced learner like me (that could be the problem of course )

Cheers,Paul

w8ye

My Feedback: (16)

I think your list is pretty much dead on.

Grass presents a problem and for a small plane the grass must be very short

I always go for the bigger wheels

bigedmustafa

My Feedback: (2)

Bouncy landing gear and small tires aren't a great combination on grass fields. I would imagine the Apprentice would be a handful on most grass fields.

To be honest, I found take-offs to be scarier than landings when I was training. My first glow trainer was a Hobbico Nexstar Select RTF and it always floated down nice and gently. The first time I ever landed the thing I didn't even realize that I was landing until the instructor told me to cut the power while the plane was a foot off the grass.

Take-offs were a different story, and the Nexstar has relatively solid ground handling compared to other planes I've flown since. It seemed as soon as I started advancing the throttle, the plane would move around a bit on the runway and change angles. Even small amounts of wind could catch a wingtip and give the plane a nudge in the wrong direction at the worst possible moment.

With practice, I simply got better at advancing the throttle smoothly and trying to anticipate any minor corrections I'd need to make during take-off. Later I would have to learn how to keep just enough up elevator on during taxi and take-off with my tail-draggers so I wouldn't be out spinning doughnuts on an asphalt runway.

Basically, our models aren't designed to drive well, they're designed to fly well. The steering linkage on most tricycle gear setups is weak and sloppy, and the steering arms are forever becoming misaligned or loose. It simply takes practice to learn how to guide or coax (control is too strong a word) an airplane down a runway while turning up the power to full blast for take-off. Checking your airframe before every flying session for proper wheel alignment and tight, straight landing gear hardware also goes a long way toward keeping your take-offs smooth and easy.

w8ye

My Feedback: (16)

I had some electrics a few years ago. I hand launched them. there's no way they would work in the grass.

Last summer there was a guy who would come out to the field with an electric Cub. He would take off from the the paved parking lot but fly in the regular area.

ejam

My Feedback: (1)

HI all,
I too got the E-flite Apprentice 15e RTF for Christmas and I havent flowen it yet. Weather hasnt been good yet. I have other planes, the hobbyzone super cub 1st plane( learned on), parkzone T-28 2nd plane(fly ok-good on, its a blast!), and a hanger 9 pts p-51 mustang (not flowen) My question is to those who own the apprentice.

1) Do you glue the wings, or just use the protective plates to hold them together? I was thinking of using clear packing tape, but Im worried about that not being strong enough. I have seen it in flight on you tube and it seems to be pretty fast.

2) I need an easier way to charge the E-flite battery. I do have a 12v battery used to start my nitro engine on the mustang, can that be used to safely charge the 11.1 volt 3200mah lipo?

3) any other tips, tricks that I should know before flying the apprentice?

Oh, My wife also got me the parkzone micro cessna 210 and my sons got the micro citabria! These are so much fun and even better when flying with your sons![8D]

w8ye

My Feedback: (16)

The wing is held to the plane by rubber bands

Are you talking about gluing the wing together? The wing has a front and rear plastic cap that are fastened to the wing halves with a contact tape to keep them from sliding off the wing tube. This should hold well enough.

you cannot charge your plane lipo battery directly with a 12v battery you must use a charger especially made for lipo batteries. But the charger might be able to run off your 12v battery

It says that the RTF comes with a charger that you attach to a 12v battery or power supply

3S Balancing Li-Po Charger (EFLC3010) (included)

For others reading this . . . . here is the manual

http://www.modelflight.com.au/manual...725-Manual.pdf

flyinrog

My Feedback: (1)

You cant use the starter battery to charge with, it doesnt have the amps...go to walmart and get a rechargable jumper battery($35), real handy and your car battery wont be dead at the end of the day...your charger is designed to charged from your car battery but I dont like to do that...Rog

w8ye

My Feedback: (16)

I have a garden tractor battery that I use with my Dynotron starter but I have charged plane batteries with it. I have also used the gell cell in my starter box.

I also have had two chargers hooked to my truck and would always have two batteries charging and one in the plane.

You can fly yourself until you are tired that way.

I didn't have any trouble with my truck battery

ejam

My Feedback: (1)

Flyinrog,
Thats what I was looking for. I have a full size Bronco, and I have all my rc stuff in the back and keep the tail gate down.
Using the charger it came with would mean that I would have to have my hood up also just to charge this one battery. And there is always the chanch of the lipo battery and charger falling down into the engine compartment, or most likely you forget that the charger is there and close the hood, Ive done that!
I was hopping to hear from owners of the apprentice. My question about the wings being glued or use tape, I am talking about the wing joint, where you put the two halfs together. It just doesnt seem like the two wing covers will be strong enough.

w8ye

My Feedback: (16)

The wing tube takes all the stress..

all the two covers do is hold the two halves together. The tape they use is rather vigorous and all it has to do is to keep the wing halves from sliding apart

B.L.E.

I bought one for my wife for Christmas and we have taken it out twice. The joiner rod takes all the stress and the two thick plastic covers hold the wing together and act as pressure points for the rubber bands so they don't bite into the wing.

I have only flown it off of paved runways and the ground handling seems quite normal. Are you sure the nose wheel is not off center?

How does it fly? Really well IMO, like a trainer should fly. Not at all underpowered either and it will fly for at least 15 minutes on a charge at cruise power. I'm thinking of changing the battery lead to a Deans connector just to be compatible with my other electric plane stuff.

abarclay

I have had the Apprentice since Christmas and between my Grandson and I have 50 or so flights on it. Thanks to a lot of simulator time before we started flying all have been without incident. We are able to fly most afternoons and on weekends. The plastic caps that join the wing halves seem adequate to hold the wing together on the CF rod. I put a strip of clear packing tape over the joint, all the way around the wing just in case and have had no problem.

As far as the batteries go, I have two 3200 LiPos which give us plenty of flying time. If you use the charger included with the Apprentie, you must use a 12V source. The most likely candidate is a car battery. I bought a $20 garden tractor battery to charge my LiPos but have found that I need to run a battery charger on the tractor battery while I'm charging the LiPos to keep from running out of juice before I get both batteries charged. Maybe I'm just paranoid, but after seeing some of the videos on LiPo accidents I am not willing to charge them in the immediate vicinity of my car, so I actually charge the batteries on the driveway.

I had to adjust the nose gear linkage to achieve straight takeoffs. As inidcated in the manual, you want to trim the aircraft for flight and then adjust the nose gear linkage to align the front wheel with the rudder. I notice some change in this alignment over the course of the day, I assume due to temperature variations, but it is easily controlled with minimal stick input during the very short takeoff roll.

All in all we're very satisfied with the Apprentice. It was a step up from our first plane, a HZ Super Cub.

w8ye

My Feedback: (16)

abarclay, This is all very precise and accurate information of actual experience - good post

PaulHarrow

Apprentice + grass = Blurrgghhh!!

After spending a month on the simulator, I took mine out for the first time today. The grass was very fine, less than an inch high, and was very dried up (due to no rain here in Sydney) and the ground below was very hard. Still, it would not roll on the grass for a take-off.! I increased the power, and all it would do is nose into the ground. Fortunately we have a cricket pitch in almost every park in AUS, and so taking off ended up being no problem. Once I was in the air, I had an absolute blast - once my hands stopped trembling. :-)

Well, now I was in the air, I started to worry about the landing. Not because I did not think I could bring it in, but rather, what was going to happen with the grass??? Well, the same thing happened on all 3 landings. I brought it in nice and smooth, flared a little just as it stalled, landed softly, and it rolled in nicely...BUT....just before it came to a halt, it would nose in and flip over. It would not matter how well you landed...this was when the rollout reduced to about 5mph, and it was exactly the same each time. Half expecting this, I cut the throttle about 3 seconds before touch down, so the prop does not have a mark on it, BUT...my motor bearing seems somehow loose and the rotating outer case is wobbling. This should not happen from this!!! I will see what my LHS has to say tomorrow.

One thing is for sure...I am going to convert this thing into a tail dragger. Anyone tried it yet? It is no good to do a perfect landing in quite short grass, and then watch the plane flip over it's nose every time just before it comes to a standstill. Very unsatisfying.

Oh, BTW, I flew for 16 minutes (3 min, then 10 min, then 3 min) and when I came home, ends up I used only just over 50% of the battery!!!!!! Apart from the take off, I was cruising at about 40% throttle most of the time, and also I found the low rate control throws recommended in the manual to give me plenty of control without letting me overcompensate too easily.

Anyway, the plane looks great in the air (much better in the flesh than the you-tube videos show, and you certainly cannot see the rubber bands) and was a breeze to fly and land, but still seemed quite nimble and plenty of fun. I had a lot of admiring onlookers, and I think what intrigued them most was that it is almost totally silent in the air - even at near full throttle. If you are not landing on grass, then there are no issues with this plane, but if you are...well, I would like to hear how you fix them.

Regards,
Harrow.

ejam

My Feedback: (1)

PaulHarrow,
Larger wheels may help out. At least it did on my HZ super cub. I also have a PZ T-28 that will nose down some times, but havent seen the need to put larger wheels on yet. I still havent flown my apprentice yet, but can tell by holding it, that grass landings were going to end up that way. So befor my first flight, I plan on installing larger wheels.
Im just worried that the charger that came with the apprentice wont always charge the battery fully. I did put the battery on charge using my truck battery, and it was still charging after 3 hours and still wasnt done. It may have been a bad connection at the aligator clips, or faulty lipo, or faulty charger.
I guess I will just buy a new tractor battery. I was just looking for a way to get rid of so much stuff to load up and be convient.
It is so nice just to load up the T-28 and plug the battery into the cig. lighter to charge, and when you get to the field, your ready.
Oh well, I do have 3 boys that are starting to fly too, guess Id better get use to all the extra stuff!

PaulHarrow

Update to my last post regarding grass landings. I went back to the same location and have since landed five times with no problems!!! (Still needed to use the cricket pitch to take off).

I think there were two possible reasons:

1. There was a steady breeze, so perhaps the main wing was still generating enough lift when the ground speed was close to zero to help lift the plane over the grass.
2. I found I did not have the nose wheel perfectly straight the first day, so it may have been turning sideways and tipping over.

I have found takeoffs to be extremely easy. I go straight to full throttle, and it is in the air in 10 ft, long before it has a chance to veer to either side. Given my recent grass landing success, I have scrapped my tail-dragger ideas, and I am sure I will have very few problems once I install the set of 2 1/2 inch wheels I have on order.

ejam, regarding charging, I have set the charger to 2.5 amps, and it does take a couple of hours. If the charge lights are flashing, I am sure it is doing the job. You will know it is fully charged if the battery reads about 12.4 volts after charging. Check the voltage on your battery and see if it is making progress to reaching 12.4 volts, and if not, I suggest you take it back the store to be checked.

w8ye

My Feedback: (16)

Practice makes you perfect

Paulparkflyer

Hi guys,
Thanks for your responses,
Since posting this i have flown my apprentice a few more times and adopted a quick takeoff technique that has reduced the problems on the ground,
As the motor is set with lots of right and down thrust I have found take offs are best at full power, it just leaps into the air,
I was originally trying to do long gradual graceful takeoffs like real life and ending up in trouble with the grass,

I have also since put larger wheels on it and also shifted the COG more forward than the book says and for a beginner it is better to fly,
I had a lot of trouble getting it back on the ground before i did this,
It has been a good trainer,
The decals have long peeled off so my son and I are going to paint it with acrylic paint in cream and dark red with window blackouts just to make it look better,
Its not real pretty as a total whit foam model,

Have any of you had trouble with the decals peeling off,
Mine is kept in my garage which is about 48 degrees C at the moment as we are getting our usual heatwave,

Cheers,Paul

w8ye

My Feedback: (16)

The acrylic paint will add too much weight and it may never fly again.

Don't paint it - just leave it alone

ejam

My Feedback: (1)

I wouldnt paint it. I am going to cover it with microlite covering(http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...7&I=LXGDW1&P=K ). It will cover foam great and make it stronger. Ive seen a few done and they look good.[8D]

rbwater

Greetings from Canada,

My two cents worth on the Apprentice. I have had mine since September & flown it & repaired it & replaced bits quite a bit. Although it says in the manual get an instructor, being stubborn & short of time to organize such a thing, I had to teach myself (I did build & fly models a lot when a teenager several decades ago). I would summarize that I think the Apprentice is a good trainer - flys nicely, repairs easily but it has a few quirks which definately puzzle me. Most of these result IMO from the compromises the manufacturers made to put out a complete package incl. 2.4 Gz radio system at the price point they chose. I have no complaints because I think it was a good deal & I have had tons of fun but there are a few associated frustrations.

The first problem I encountered was the take off from grass issue. I had read that it needed bigger wheels so put on the largest size that fits the bend in the front u/c leg. No way could I get it to take off from the park/soccer fields near my house (only late evening with no persons within a mile). Eventually, I found a patch of bare dirt worn down by cars parking (sadly no cricket pitches in Canadian parks!)& was able to use that as long as the breeze was in the right direction. As others noted, close to full power gets it off the ground fairly quickly. The problem is that if for any reason it does not fly out near straight, you have to be nimble to catch it from heading off in an undesirable direction. Fiddling with the nose wheel helps but seems to go off fairly quickly.

The second problem I have had is similar to one also described above in that it sometimes tips over either landing or sometimes taking off if it veers into a rough spot. This frequently results in a broken motor mount. They are only about $5 to replace but seem to give out very easily. Perhaps it is a design feature to help protect the motor. Anyway, I have never broken a prop. but have about 6 broken motor mounts (let's not mention the cowl which is made of bone china & had to be abandoned quite early).

The third problem was the one mentioned about the motor drive shaft & can becoming distorted and grinding when run. I believe the problem is that the bearings are very poor & got damaged in the tip overs that did not break the motor mount or during one of my less than perfect flights (perhaps the one where I hit a tree!!). The quirk that bothers me is that you cannot obtain spares for the motor. You have to replace it @ $70 when eventually the grinding gets bad enough that it won't run adequately. It is a special (read cheap) motor made for the Apprentice not a standard E-flite motor - one of the compromises made to reach the manfacturer's desired price point. I have subsequently bought other electric motors for other projects & you can buy a new set of bearings for $5 & a new drive shaft for $3 if you need them. If you need to replace it, take a look at the Turnigy 35-48-B 900kv Brushless . On an Apprentice thread on RCGroups, one poster said he used that motor @$22US & it seems about the same length & weight & power.

The last problem I'll mention was stripping the gears in the aileron servos. Again, my fault due to heavy impact. Again, the issue is that they do not sell replacement gear sets. Have to buy new servo @ $25 rather than gear set for say $7.

Anyway, we have had continuous snow on the ground since November 15 so have been flying on skis. Apprentice works well off very hard packed snow or ice but soft snow is just like grass - hopeless. Eventually built a S.P.A.D. taildragger fuelage to use with the Apprentice wing. Not too pretty - need flourescent orange to see it against white snow & grey sky - but takes off nicely & flies well. Attached for your amusement is a picture.

Hope my ramble is of interest & look forward to other commentaries on Apprentice experience. How about describing your most amusing crash/fly away/tree climb?

RB

w8ye

My Feedback: (16)

Welcome to RCUniverse and thanks for sharing your experience

Paulparkflyer

I have put 3 inch wheels on the main gear and a two inch one on the front, then bent the main gear bracket to accomodaite the half inch offset,

I personally find the nose wheel gear very sloppy and the clear brittle acrylic is starting to bind puting lots of strain on the rudder servo,
You can loosen the screw to free it up but then the spring rod is loose,
Some silicone lube for plastics has improved it,
I am considering puting stronger better nose gear on it and using a seperate servo on "Y" lead in parallel with the rudder servo,
At least if the nose wheel takes a hit I may still have rudder left,

An instructor at my club suggested that I move the COG forward as out of the box it is very hard to get back down on the ground for a begginer,especially in a bit of wind,

Maybe the stronger heavier nose gear will be a win win all round,?

I have lost count how many motor mounts I have broke with just gentle nose overs,
Have broke a cowl too, they are so delicate, AS RB says, they are like bone china,
Broke a few pieces of foam off here and there, they glue back on with 5 minute epoxy,
Just need to be mindful of the weight that epoxy adds,
We do have cricket pitches at every park almost but as said it is so hard to keep these things straight so the quicker one gets it of the ground the better even if it doesnt look much like a scale takoff,
They have heaps of power,

Cheers,Paul

PaulHarrow

Well, today was my acrobatic day!!! I tried loops, rolls, and all sorts of combinations of half rolls pulling out in a loop, half loops rolling out, etc. Had an absolute blast. I did it all using the low rate throws, but will try the high rate next time. Here is what I found....

Looping....this is dead easy. Get a bit of altitude to be safe cruising at 3/4 throttle, I then hit full throttle and pulled all the way back, and it goes around very predictably with no problem and little loss of altitude. After a couple of attempts I found that I could easily do a few at a time with no danger of losing control.

Rolling...this is NOT so easy. When inverted, the lift of the flat bottom wing pulls the plane down! Cruising at 3/4 throttle, push stick all the way to the side....but...as you start to invert, you need to push in a lot of DOWN elevator (which pulls the plane UP when it is upside down). The plane did not always come out straight, or level....so do not try this until you think you are ready to pull the plane back to level from any position. My heart was thumping hard after the first couple, but I got it sorted out eventually, and I am now coming out reasonably straight. Unless you are feeling quite confident, leave this to later...I guess it is the easiest way to have a very hard crash.

Finally managed a couple of grass take-offs. Really need to find a patch of badly worn grass (read dirt) and use full up elevator to keep the nose up. Anyway, my 2 1/2 inch wheels just arrived at the store, so I look forward to seeing how much they help.

I got so confident this morning that I tried something else for the first time.....flying until the battery goes flat. It was dead still air, so I thought this would be safe. Ended up flying for 30 minutes !! Considering I did about 6 take-offs, and was trying all the acrobatics, I think this is great! I did do a lot of cruising at about 1/3rd throttle, but I find this as much fun as anything, especially if you do it at about 12 feet of the ground, and cruise around trees and light posts.....the low level scale flying experience is great!!

RB does seem to be right about the non-standard parts, and if you live on the other side of the world, then a stripped aileron gear is going to cost you a whole servo (or two if you want to match them), and don't even start to think about getting a replacement bearing or shaft. My noisy motor is almost silent now (I do NOT believe a motor should be damaged by a nose over in long grass at 3mph with zero throttle). Still, it is a great plane. I think it is still good value considering it included a battery, charger, and full range radio, and if you have to buy a new servo or motor, then so be it. Once you have replaced them with standard available parts, then the ongoing costs will be much lower.

Regards,
Paul.

Charlie P.

LIke the beast on skis! My former club used to tend to "fly the pieces" of cobbled together remnants. Current club is 1/4 Scale focused and tend to look down on such things. Pity.

I've been thinking hard on adding a *gasp* electric on skis/floats to my hanger. I have a pretty good sized field (three gardens) that are dormant in the winter and that would get me airborne much more often. Not quite big enough for any of my current stable . . . unless I harrier the Hot Stik in. Uh Huh.