Have a question here have flown for some time but never use the rudder as most planes handle so nicely with ailerons but into twins now too and keep hearing more about the necessity for using the rudder.Have bipes and get along on ailerons also.My thought was maybe I should patch up an old trainer I picked up at a swap that doesn't have ailerons could get it going in couple hours.Fly this as would force me into more use of the rudder as know I don't routinely use it now only when I really think about it and make a definite effort that way.Any thoughts??Thanks Bob Moodie.

rudder is really your friend.... i have been flying for years and i still catch my self not using it.. but if you use it you have to use it correctly... and if you practice.. you will see that your turns are alot nicer!!
but if you can get the trainer up.. by all means do it.. practice never hurts anyone

I'm not sure if using your old trainer without ailerons for practice would help. I think the key to rudder use in a 4 channel setup (throttle, elevator, rudder, and aileron) is to make aileron turns cleaner. Using the rudder on your trainer as you've mentioned would get you use to using the rudder on the left stick (assuming Mode 2). However, I don't think it would help you co-ordinating your turns.

I'm by no means and ace flier, but I remember being told by my instructor when I learned to fly to move you thumbs in unison. At this point it's somewhat of a secong nature, though I must admit there are times when I catch my self using ailerons only for turns.

Don't forgot some day you might progress to a model that won't turn without rudder even with ailerons! The ailerons will just bank the plane due to adverse yaw!

yeah man.. i agree.. i had a hell of a time trying to fly my helicopter... rudder stick is for the tail rotor... hehehehe it WILL NOT turn with out the t/r!!! had to learn real quick like...

Bob,
How the heck do you take-off or more importantly, land in a cross wind without rudder?

If you really want to get use to using rudder, buy a Piper Cub. They don't like to turn without rudder.
Dennis-

Thats why I was thinking using a plane without ailerons would force you to learn to use them.In strong winds just pull into the wind and slow down can come down vertical that way or back up if enough wind lot of fun with my eagle 2 or other light plane.Getting practice on rudder in wind by going up and slowing down try to back up requires quite a little rudder use along with ailerons.Find myself forgetting rudder in normal flying.Incidentally have 2 cubs and a citabria find them all to be hard to handle on ground found that floats will cut the ground looping a lot.Thing can't spin around as easy on floats.Don't think anything could help that Citabria!

A plane without alerons does not force youto use rudder.
WHY because on a ruder/elevator plane you plug the rudder in to the aileron chanel.

i practise using rudder by doing things like stall turns and knife edge, one good practise is to get the plane flying straight from left to right (or other way) and feed in aileron and oposite rudder and try and keep te plane going straight, it's not as easy as it sounds.

or take off cross wind on purpose, also not that easy as it goes aainst what were taught

I'd say just take one of your normal planes out, and go up a bit high. Then make a couple of turns as you are now, with just aileron and elevator.

Then try a few turns by rolling, then feeding in rudder and elevator and turn that way, and notice the difference. Try it with differnet amounts of rudder, and you'll quickly see that it's not hard to pick up, and that you can actually easily see the difference most of the time. Btw, the flatter the turn, the more obvious the rudder input helps. If you're in the habit of making pylon turns, it won't matter as much

I agree that a rudder-only plane won't help nearly as much as must flying your existing planes with rudder.

moodier,
Our field doesn't allow you the option of landing into the wind. If there's a cross wind, you're stuck with it. Field is only about 100 feet wide and the wind usually blows from about 45 - 90 degrees to the runway.

Learning to use that rudder will also help prevent ground loops.

Becoming a real pro with rudder MIGHT help prevent ground loops with the Citabria. Truthfully, I'm used to using rudder virtually all the time, especially taking off and landing, but my Citabria can still be a handful! They sure are squirrelly!

I've found it best to bring the throttle up slowly and keep nimble fingers on the rudder. If it gets ahead of you, forget it!
Dennis-

I learned to use the rudder by flying the pattern with the rudder and elevator only, didn't move the ailerons at all. This will help to get your left thumb used to the motions required. Of course this really only works with a trainer or a plane with lots of dihedral. Be warned! excessive rudder combined with excessive elevator can lead to a nasty snap roll depending on the plane. I also found that leading the ailerons with the rudder first smoothed out the turns that the plane made.

If you actually hook the rudder to the rudder channel, yes that trainer will help. After all, thats the only way you could turn so you'll get used to using it very quickly. But as others have said you won't be using it the same way you would with ailerons on other planes.

A better way may be to cut your aileron throw way down on one of your other planes so you have to use the rudder more to maneuver as you normally do. I have a trainer that rolls veeerry slowly and it gives my rudder thumb a good work out as I hardly ever fly straight and level

Slow rolls, knife edge, slips, stall turns, and flat turns also exercise that left hand.

As far as twins go it depends on the plane. On engine out situations you definitely have to have your left hand ready.

Thanks to all of you for the hints there is much food for thought in your replies.Guess maybe I have to put in more effort to use the rudder.Will be flying mostly floats for next few months till go back to AZ this fall but the cub and tele both use lot of rudder actually to do anything.Shame about the Citabria I think they are the nicest looking plane but haven't run into many ppeople that think they are nice to fly.Don't know if it is just this Sig one or all of them,mine is still in Az waiting new front end after one of it's tip stalls when I tried to horse it into the air before it was ready.Never seem to learn to let it run till it goes up on its own.If it don't ground loop it tip stalls,kind of fun to watch someone who is good fly it looks so easy but even the fellow who showed me it could be flown has one and says he doesn't fly it because to much work said it will try every nasty thing know to a plane and just not fun to fly.Well thanks a lot to all of you.Bob Moodie

The Citabria is a handful by design. It's the combination of a short tail moment (short coupled), a "high" CG, a high wing, narrow landing gear stance, and a mid-to-high wingloading (compared to, say, a cub), and a (usually) high power loading. Frequently the CG is also a bit aft as well (again, by design).

Remember, Citabria is Airbatic spelled backwards. It was designed as an acrobatic plane, and it flys like one, even in model size.

Ain't it the truth. Mine will perform anything I'm capable of asking it, but it isn't really what I'd call a joy to fly.
Dennis-