roll & turn
04-21-2009 | 01:09 PM
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From: lake peekskill,
NY
roll & turn
I am trying to make level turns on my flight simulator using not just the ailerons and elevator but also the rudder can someone walk me through this. Do I apply the rudder first or the elevator to start the turn? How much rudder (full?) and how do I stop the plane from losing altitude? Do I use opposite ailerons to stop the roll induced from the rudder?
04-21-2009 | 01:14 PM
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From: Oklahoma City,
OK
RE: roll & turn
I just "breathe" on the opposite rudder a little when turning if I even worry about it. Full rudder will be too much, start slow and you'll soon learn how much is right for your plane or the sim's plane.
04-21-2009 | 01:31 PM
#3
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RE: roll & turn
Turning can be accomplished using aileron alone, or aileron and rudder. The latter is called a coordinated turn. This helps the tail to 'follow' the plane during the turn. The use of elevator maintains your altitude.
If I'm turning using aileron and rudder, I begin my turn using both surfaces. It's a practice thing to learn how much rudder gives a smooth turn. Depending on the throws, expo and other circumstances, you may use a little and you may use a lot to make a good smooth turn.
Once you begin your turn, the plane will continue in that attitude until you give it opposite control. So if you give a right stick to bank right, you'll need to give it some left to come out of that bank.
That's the way I do it anyway. Hope that helped some.
If I'm turning using aileron and rudder, I begin my turn using both surfaces. It's a practice thing to learn how much rudder gives a smooth turn. Depending on the throws, expo and other circumstances, you may use a little and you may use a lot to make a good smooth turn.
Once you begin your turn, the plane will continue in that attitude until you give it opposite control. So if you give a right stick to bank right, you'll need to give it some left to come out of that bank.
That's the way I do it anyway. Hope that helped some.
04-21-2009 | 01:36 PM
#4
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RE: roll & turn
Breath, yes. Opposite, no. If you are banking left, you would apply left rudder.
You bank the wings with the aileron (Let's say 30 degrees). Now the lift you are generating is still the same, but you are generating it 30 degrees off from the direction that gravity is pulling you, so in a sense, you are generating less lift. This will cause the plane to drop so (as you know) you hold the nose level with elevator.
While this is all happening, to must remember that the outside wing is moving faster than the inside wing, so it is generating more drag. This sometimes causes the outside wing to lag behind a little and it is what is known as "Adverse Yaw". It is much more pronounced on slow planes with big wings (Like a full-wing Cub)
The best way to imagine this is to picture yourself sitting in the center of the cockpit with a stick poking up a few inches in front of the windshield and a string tied to the end of the stick. When you are flying straight, the string is being blown straight back. When you go into a turn, you want the string to continue blowing straight back. But if you are getting adverse yaw, (and you are in a left turn) the string will start to point to your right shoulder (Because the right wing, which needs to move faster, is lagging behind and causing you to yaw to the right while you are turning left)
So to keep that string pointing straight back, you need to apply some left rudder to counteract the yaw.
How much? No one can answer that. It's like saying, "How much do you turn the steering wheel of a car to make a turn?"
But usually, only a tiny bit of rudder is needed (If any at all - most of our small models don't suffer from enough adverse yaw for it to be a concern)
You bank the wings with the aileron (Let's say 30 degrees). Now the lift you are generating is still the same, but you are generating it 30 degrees off from the direction that gravity is pulling you, so in a sense, you are generating less lift. This will cause the plane to drop so (as you know) you hold the nose level with elevator.
While this is all happening, to must remember that the outside wing is moving faster than the inside wing, so it is generating more drag. This sometimes causes the outside wing to lag behind a little and it is what is known as "Adverse Yaw". It is much more pronounced on slow planes with big wings (Like a full-wing Cub)
The best way to imagine this is to picture yourself sitting in the center of the cockpit with a stick poking up a few inches in front of the windshield and a string tied to the end of the stick. When you are flying straight, the string is being blown straight back. When you go into a turn, you want the string to continue blowing straight back. But if you are getting adverse yaw, (and you are in a left turn) the string will start to point to your right shoulder (Because the right wing, which needs to move faster, is lagging behind and causing you to yaw to the right while you are turning left)
So to keep that string pointing straight back, you need to apply some left rudder to counteract the yaw.
How much? No one can answer that. It's like saying, "How much do you turn the steering wheel of a car to make a turn?"
But usually, only a tiny bit of rudder is needed (If any at all - most of our small models don't suffer from enough adverse yaw for it to be a concern)
04-21-2009 | 02:20 PM
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RE: roll & turn
Not all planes respond the same. Some have more powerful rudders than others. Watch your plane carefully to see if the tail is following the nose or if its skidding/sliding.
As you bank into the turn your wing loses some of its lift and some of the elevator effect is directed towards the turn instead of just pointing the nose up. So in a turn you may need to apply a little power and/or up elevator to maintain altitude.
Regards,
Clay
As you bank into the turn your wing loses some of its lift and some of the elevator effect is directed towards the turn instead of just pointing the nose up. So in a turn you may need to apply a little power and/or up elevator to maintain altitude.
Regards,
Clay
04-21-2009 | 02:29 PM
#9
RE: roll & turn
ORIGINAL: MinnFlyer
Ken is referring to a guy in our club who tells newbies that they need to learn to coordinate their turns - when in reality, the guy can't fly worth beans.
Ken is referring to a guy in our club who tells newbies that they need to learn to coordinate their turns - when in reality, the guy can't fly worth beans.
We have a couple that will coach you on everything from engine tuning to aerodynamics to flying. On the rare occasion they actually fly though you notice that their engines are lucky start then they cough and sputter the entire flight and the guy is darting the plane all over the place before it even leaves the ground, they bounce every landing like a basketball (if they manage to find the runway) & break a prop almost every flight. They're "experienced" though and can show you a thing or two, just ask them. I feel like hiding under a table when they fly. These are ususally the same guys who rant and rave about a a really good aerobatic pilot somehow being "unsafe". I just tune them out and fly.
As for the coordinated turns, some planes obviously require it but I don't understand why some people seem to be so hung up it though.
04-21-2009 | 02:41 PM
#10
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RE: roll & turn
Hey Chuck,Mike and Ken
It must be mandatory for every club to have a
"Know it all " lol, We have one too. Their engine
always sputters and he gets 3 or 4 landings in out
of one approach.
Bob
04-21-2009 | 02:43 PM
#11
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RE: roll & turn
ORIGINAL: ChuckW
You mean that guy left the club here and is now in Minnesota?
ORIGINAL: MinnFlyer
Ken is referring to a guy in our club who tells newbies that they need to learn to coordinate their turns - when in reality, the guy can't fly worth beans.
Ken is referring to a guy in our club who tells newbies that they need to learn to coordinate their turns - when in reality, the guy can't fly worth beans.
When I visited Mike a couple of years ago I met his "guy" before going to the field for flying and he kept telling me how important it was to make a coordinated turn, and how "everybody" needed to know how to make one. Then when we were at the field he showed up with a Cub (which DESPERATELY needs to have coordinated turns) and didn't make them with it. I asked Mike why he wasn't making them after he said everybody else needed to. Mike's answer? "Because he doesn't know how to do them"!!!! [X(]
Ken
04-21-2009 | 03:02 PM
#12
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RE: roll & turn
You are flying a sim, not a real plane, so try different things and see what happens. Try initiating with the rudder then using ailerons and elevator, try the opposite, and pay attention to what happens.
I don't really think about what I do anymore, it just kind of happens. If I had to guess I'd say I start all 3 at the same time.
Try using too much rudder, using no rudder, using a little rudder, etc.
Try making tuns without using the ailerons on a plane with dihedral.
Eventually you will find what you think works the best or looks the best, for you.
The 'real' airplanes I've flown have a little 'coordination bubble' on the control panel. If you roll the plane it will go off center if you don't also use rudder. I didn't really stare at the thing, but being as it's based on a bubble floating in a liquid, I would guess that it 'wants' to have rudder input as soon as there is aileron input; easing into both controls of course.
I don't really think about what I do anymore, it just kind of happens. If I had to guess I'd say I start all 3 at the same time.
Try using too much rudder, using no rudder, using a little rudder, etc.
Try making tuns without using the ailerons on a plane with dihedral.
Eventually you will find what you think works the best or looks the best, for you.
The 'real' airplanes I've flown have a little 'coordination bubble' on the control panel. If you roll the plane it will go off center if you don't also use rudder. I didn't really stare at the thing, but being as it's based on a bubble floating in a liquid, I would guess that it 'wants' to have rudder input as soon as there is aileron input; easing into both controls of course.
04-21-2009 | 03:20 PM
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From: Oklahoma City,
OK
RE: roll & turn
ORIGINAL: MinnFlyer
Breath, yes. Opposite, no. If you are banking left, you would apply left rudder.
You bank the wings with the aileron (Let's say 30 degrees). Now the lift you are generating is still the same, but you are generating it 30 degrees off from the direction that gravity is pulling you, so in a sense, you are generating less lift. This will cause the plane to drop so (as you know) you hold the nose level with elevator.
While this is all happening, to must remember that the outside wing is moving faster than the inside wing, so it is generating more drag. This sometimes causes the outside wing to lag behind a little and it is what is known as "Adverse Yaw". It is much more pronounced on slow planes with big wings (Like a full-wing Cub)
The best way to imagine this is to picture yourself sitting in the center of the cockpit with a stick poking up a few inches in front of the windshield and a string tied to the end of the stick. When you are flying straight, the string is being blown straight back. When you go into a turn, you want the string to continue blowing straight back. But if you are getting adverse yaw, (and you are in a left turn) the string will start to point to your right shoulder (Because the right wing, which needs to move faster, is lagging behind and causing you to yaw to the right while you are turning left)
So to keep that string pointing straight back, you need to apply some left rudder to counteract the yaw.
How much? No one can answer that. It's like saying, "How much do you turn the steering wheel of a car to make a turn?"
But usually, only a tiny bit of rudder is needed (If any at all - most of our small models don't suffer from enough adverse yaw for it to be a concern)
Breath, yes. Opposite, no. If you are banking left, you would apply left rudder.
You bank the wings with the aileron (Let's say 30 degrees). Now the lift you are generating is still the same, but you are generating it 30 degrees off from the direction that gravity is pulling you, so in a sense, you are generating less lift. This will cause the plane to drop so (as you know) you hold the nose level with elevator.
While this is all happening, to must remember that the outside wing is moving faster than the inside wing, so it is generating more drag. This sometimes causes the outside wing to lag behind a little and it is what is known as "Adverse Yaw". It is much more pronounced on slow planes with big wings (Like a full-wing Cub)
The best way to imagine this is to picture yourself sitting in the center of the cockpit with a stick poking up a few inches in front of the windshield and a string tied to the end of the stick. When you are flying straight, the string is being blown straight back. When you go into a turn, you want the string to continue blowing straight back. But if you are getting adverse yaw, (and you are in a left turn) the string will start to point to your right shoulder (Because the right wing, which needs to move faster, is lagging behind and causing you to yaw to the right while you are turning left)
So to keep that string pointing straight back, you need to apply some left rudder to counteract the yaw.
How much? No one can answer that. It's like saying, "How much do you turn the steering wheel of a car to make a turn?"
But usually, only a tiny bit of rudder is needed (If any at all - most of our small models don't suffer from enough adverse yaw for it to be a concern)
04-21-2009 | 03:23 PM
#14
My Feedback: (8)
RE: roll & turn
ORIGINAL: brett65
If the plane loses altitude in the turn, wouldn't you use opposite rudder to keep the nose up? I notice this with the nose trying to drop while in long banked turns with my float plane.
If the plane loses altitude in the turn, wouldn't you use opposite rudder to keep the nose up? I notice this with the nose trying to drop while in long banked turns with my float plane.
Maybe your plane was nose heavy?
04-21-2009 | 03:30 PM
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From: Oklahoma City,
OK
RE: roll & turn
ORIGINAL: gaRCfield
If you are rolling less than 45 degrees, the elevator will/should keep the nose up. If you are rolling much past 45 degrees, I think there's like an aerobatic name for that maneuver and it's in the IMAC schedule, and it does require opposite rudder.
Maybe your plane was nose heavy?
ORIGINAL: brett65
If the plane loses altitude in the turn, wouldn't you use opposite rudder to keep the nose up? I notice this with the nose trying to drop while in long banked turns with my float plane.
If the plane loses altitude in the turn, wouldn't you use opposite rudder to keep the nose up? I notice this with the nose trying to drop while in long banked turns with my float plane.
Maybe your plane was nose heavy?
04-21-2009 | 04:55 PM
#17
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RE: roll & turn
Using rudder to keep the nose up is called doing a knife edge. You use the elevator to keep the nose up during a turn - unless of course you're doing pylon turns.
Another use of cross-controlling would be for a side-slip. This is often seen done with Pre-WWII planes as they come in on final and wish to lose altitude without gaining airspeed, they will bank the wings in one direction and apply opposite rudder. This makes the plane crab, or fly sideways as it's coming in, which creates a LOT of drag and allows the plane to drop without gaining excess speed.
But for a classic, textbook turn, you bank with ailerons, hold the nose level with elevator, and combat adverse yaw with rudder - pretty much in that order.
Another use of cross-controlling would be for a side-slip. This is often seen done with Pre-WWII planes as they come in on final and wish to lose altitude without gaining airspeed, they will bank the wings in one direction and apply opposite rudder. This makes the plane crab, or fly sideways as it's coming in, which creates a LOT of drag and allows the plane to drop without gaining excess speed.
But for a classic, textbook turn, you bank with ailerons, hold the nose level with elevator, and combat adverse yaw with rudder - pretty much in that order.
04-21-2009 | 07:01 PM
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From: Locust Grove, OK
RE: roll & turn
ORIGINAL: MinnFlyer
Using rudder to keep the nose up is called doing a knife edge.
Using rudder to keep the nose up is called doing a knife edge.
Much less then full throttle and she just wont hold the nose up.
04-21-2009 | 07:56 PM
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From: Oklahoma City,
OK
RE: roll & turn
ORIGINAL: Phoenixangel
I actually got the tiger 2 to pull off a knife edge today. It took going to a 10x7 prop and mach 2 airspeed LOL, it did look mighty spiffy holding that edge, even if it came by at mach 2.
Much less then full throttle and she just wont hold the nose up.
ORIGINAL: MinnFlyer
Using rudder to keep the nose up is called doing a knife edge.
Using rudder to keep the nose up is called doing a knife edge.
Much less then full throttle and she just wont hold the nose up.
04-21-2009 | 08:14 PM
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From: Locust Grove, OK
RE: roll & turn
My tiger wants to roll into inverted. I was trying them at a slower speed but it did not have the rudder for it. I finally just dropped the hammer 3 high and gave it a shot. It will climb very slowly with the 11x7 I just got about a gallon through the engine so I decided to change props and run it fully tuned with the diff prop. It will do them all day long now. Again at warp speed.
It was not the plane that could not do them it was the pilot. usually is .....
Note: the 10x7 is on my P-51 this one I went to 11x7.
It was not the plane that could not do them it was the pilot. usually is .....
Note: the 10x7 is on my P-51 this one I went to 11x7.
04-22-2009 | 11:04 AM
#24
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RE: roll & turn
One of the IMAC schedules had a long, sweeping, full-circle (or two?) turn at a very high bank angle. I guess it's similar to a knife-edge circle, but they had another name for it, and I believe it included a change in altitude.
The requirement was a high bank angle but not necessarily 90 degrees. It really kind of blurred the line between a turn and a knife edge, but maybe the use of opposite rudder puts it over the edge (gee no pun intended)?
Gene help me out on this one?
I'll keep digging around to see if I can find it.
The requirement was a high bank angle but not necessarily 90 degrees. It really kind of blurred the line between a turn and a knife edge, but maybe the use of opposite rudder puts it over the edge (gee no pun intended)?
Gene help me out on this one?
I'll keep digging around to see if I can find it.
