DUN DUN DUN DUUUUNNNNNNN...and the plot thickens :P Sorry just had to say that

If you really had a pair, you would teach yourself to fly a jet. From what I read around here, they are easy enough that any amateur can handle them.

^^^ How's that for painting a bullseye on your back??

Things were a lot different back in the day when I learned to fly. It took me three months to build a Falcon 56, so there was a real investment in time and money. I sure didn't want to see it end up in a bag after the first flight. I would have never flown without an instructor. 33 years later, people show up with their plug and play trainer, they don't know a glowplug from a nicad battery, and quite frankly, don't care to learn. They just "want to fly". And if they bag the plug and play after the first flight, they say, "hey, that was fun". Now let's go buy a _________. You fill in the blank. Our hobby has had "commitment" replaced by "convenient".

That's the really sweet thing about this hobby to me. You can buy planes that can be in the air the same day you take them out of the box and that's perfectly fine. Or do it slow; it's your choice. It is easier now than it has ever been before to get in the air quickly with a capable machine and also have a great likelihood of successful flights. I just don't understand the desire to break stuff needlessly. You'll never hear a box trained pilot say that he would have done better without it, and you'll never hear a self taught pilot say that he saved time and money by not using the box. So why not take advantage of the technology that is available to help new pilots?

To be sure, many of the ARF's being offered today are certainly better than I can build, and I cannot possibly build them for the prices they are being offered at. Technology has advanced so rapidly in our hobby in the last ten years. What I am talking about is we are losing the essence of the hobby itself; knowing the ins and outs of airframe construction, covering a model, how to tune an engine, understanding the nuances and skills required of the hobby that used to be essential in order to even participate in it. Part of the fun was putting everything together, in other words. Plug and play has taken that away to the detriment of the hobbyist, in my opinion. Newercomers are missing out on a lot of fun and learning.

I will say I wish I had flight simulators back in the seventies when I was learning. They are amazing. Recently, I helped solo a new pilot the first day he came to the field. How? Because he had spent hours on a sophisticated simulator.... he know how to fly before he cranked the engine.

I understand what you guys are saying about PNP's and ARF's taking out a part of the hobby. I do think that it does (taking into consideration I have not build a kit - only ARF). I agree and disagree that it's kind of a bad thing. I agree because you probably build up a lot of knowledge when building from scratch/kit. But I think a lot of people would probably not have gotten involved in this if they had to build a kit - whether it was because they don't have the time, just not into the building part itself, or whatever reason. I think this is where RTF, ARF & PNP's plays a big part.

Let's take a scenario for instance (only applicable on some people - depends on personality)...

A person decides to get in RC planes and are prepared to take the time building a kit. After a couple of weeks/months he finishes the kit and goes out to fly whether with or without an instructor. The airplane has a mechanical failure and hits the dirt...nothing is repairable. This guy is probably going to quit. Where as if, in the world we have today, he could just go out buy a ARF or RTF - build that which needs to be build still, in a weeks time go up and lets say...mechanical failure...WHAM! (In the case that he has the money) go and buy a new ARF or RTF. Or wait for payday to buy it.

^^just an example

I build plastic model airplanes, it's the closest to building a plane from scratch which I have come :P. I would love to build a rc kit - but it's just too expensive.

I totally agree Paul. Got for it, have a ball, and please keep us (or at least ME) informed on how this plays out. I genuinely enjoy your writing.

The thing is that you can still build kits if you want to. The ARFs only add another option to the hobby that alot of guys like. True, it does increase the number of people in the hobby who don't really understand construction and airframe design, but how does that matter to the rest of us? As long as they fly safely and stay active, then I'm happy with them. Most of the guys in my club fly ARFs because they want to spend their hobby time flying instead of building. Most are good flyers too and rarely have wrecks.

Awesome thread ... I should visit RCUniverse more often.

I think Paul's got an excellent approach as he's made all his decisions fully informed. He's not taken the convenience route.

All the best and good luck to you!

StuartG

So how did the taxi tests go?

HI the list posted as to what to expect when flying is a very very good one-the gentelman knows his RC flying- i would just like to add-when making your turns on the far corners- turn with aileronsthen add in a little up elevator-to keep the nose up around the corner-if the nose drops with a little up inputthat will indicate you are nose heavyadd 1/2 oz(at a time ) of lead to the tail until the nose flys level -when a little up is input on the cornersthat is how i balance my planes in actual flightas you add weight to the tail the elevator sensativity will increase -so just be aware of thatjust put in less stick control do expect anything to happen on the first flight (here is were an instuctor is worth his weight in GOLD and airplanes ) as trimming the plane to fly straight and levelINTO THE WINDwill be your greatest challengeafter that -i usually need about 10-15 flights to work out the bugs of a given plane to have it dial in and fly to my liking- wishing you the best of luck-this hobby is not like very competitive-car racingyou should get all the help you require at your local aerodrome-and make some good helpful friendsthere is no competition there-just guys who will help you succeedyou are doing this the harder way

i was curious to know why is it that kits are more expensive to get in the air than ARF, according to what's being said? i would imagine that something that was built by an assembly person before being sold, would have labor invested into it, driving up the price, right? i'm guessing building a laser cut kit is expensive because of additional building materials? how much does that really tag on to the price?
i used to build aerobatic control line symmetrical wing airplanes when i was 12-13 and lived in Russia and before that i built some simple seaworthy wooden ships, also from scratch, when i was about 10-12 and from what i remember, epoxy and covering wasn't weighed in the price of gold. in fact, it was BALSA that we would fight for back then lol. so where does this extra cost come from with kits? i'm a heli guy these days and that type of building is all about mechanical stuff instead of woodwork, but at one point i'll get me a plane.

Don't let this thread deter you from posting here , please !

you seem to be incredibly intelligent , and i enjoyed reading your well though out replies .

you and your son have fun , enjoy your first flight (no matter what the results) and just know that in any situation (or any forum) there are people that just don't get it , when you said " i may just fly or crash this once , and then move on " i understood what you meant , to many of these Folk's , RC is their whole life and only passion , you seem to be the kind of guy who has enjoyed many passions over the years , sometimes people just don't understand that .

i didn't see anyone offer this one piece of advice so i will , even though i doubt you need it , when you taxi the plane (great idea and how i learned to fly) do it with the wing off the plane the first few times

i admire your patience for not getting aggravated when replying here , it's a skill i have yet to learn .

best wishes and soft landings !

Dan

joizeex,

The Chinese buy the raw materials in BULK. Bulk that we can't match. Their labour costs are a small fraction of ours. They are graduating thousands of engineers every year. They take all the best ideas and put them in one package. They have the cash to spend on the latest and best, modern machinery and technology. They go large and succeed. They think long term.

And that reminds me of the Arlton brothers who developed the very first, 1/2A helicopter. They made it fixed pitch for simplicity and low cost. They succeeded. They then wanted to progress to collective. Many of their customers told them, "don't you dare". Keep it simple. So they did. Meanwhile, building on their success, competitors DID offer advanced versions of small helis and left them in the dust. I can't fathom why their offering advanced versions of their heli would have impinged on those who preferred the simple version. This is the kind of thinking that has hurt, and hurt badly.

Kennelmaster,

You sound like a person who just prefers to learn on their own. That can be a very good thing. Being told how to do something and then doing it just doesn't have the same impact and satisfaction as that "aha" moment when you "get it" after taking a few lumps. Such as why you try not to do downwind turns. You don't know the science behind it but you can feel the plane's reaction to a bad situation and you learn the lesson far better than being told, "don't do that".

I think that most that posted here were just concerned that you'd meet with grief too early too strongly and might be too discouraged to continue. We've all seen that happen. But in fact, in most areas that have clubs, there are always those who enjoy the solitude of just going flying and don't need or want the hustle and bustle of a crowded flying site. We have a population of some mere 40 thousand. There's one older, established club here, one other informal flying site, several strictly park flyers and one fellow with country property who maintains his own runway. Whatever turns your crank, as they say.

an arf comes with everything. hardware, fuel tank, hinges, engine mount, even a spinner on many, this all adds up. In a kit your going to spend 30 bucks in glue and another 30-40 in covering material, minimum and with paint becoming harder to come by the the phasing out of lusterkote another 30-40 bucks in paint and fule proofing for it. So that 300 dollar ARF starts to look cheap as opposed to the 170 equivalent kit.

Plus the arf are built in china were wages are next to nothing and china can buy in huge bulk that even large company's here in the states couldn't touch, and allot of kits are actually cut here in the US with the cowls and canopys imported from over seas.
Also when you build your first kit your going to have to spend a tons in tools, People can bicker back and forth on what you really need in tools, but at least 300 dollars in tools is necessary to do it right. Things like a good building surface, pins, razor saw, hobby knife and blades, mini screw drivers, drill bits, dremel tool, hinging alignment tools, covering iron and heat gun, sanding t-bars, squars and rulers, pliers hemostates and a few others I'm missing that even well equipt mechanics don't have because they don't deal with small items required with planes.

bkfamily1,

There is a simple reason I didn't buy a JET and start with that in the same way.  I just didn't think of it!
WOW, now my plans have changed!

Not really...

No update from yesterday.  Pager went off and ruind my R/C plans but made the day for someone else.  Got home Thurs, 8a.m.    T-Storms forcast for this afternoon.

I will be happy to let you all know...

Paul

Gotta think out this jet thing tho....

As another self taught guy also flies real airplanes, yes all these RC planes are toys, I say go for it. While us pilots don't have the command of the thumbs that build with time we know a little bit how and why an airplane flies. Yes, I crashed my first time, but I had a 3 channel electric. So I put on a new prop and haven't looked back since. And guess what, I've become a pretty decent RC pilot. So just keep her slow and remember the roll and yaw are backwards when she's pointing at you. And like they love to drill in your head during you private training, on final the most important thing is...airspeed. Low stall spins suck in the RC world too haha.
Sorry to hear your real bird got destroyed, what did you have?

Pretty remarkable this thread has caused so much interest considering it sounds like you are doing a pretty standard training with an instructor who happens to be your son:

but you have to understand, there's a "granny patrol" dedicated to verbally abusing people that don't do certain things the "approved" way. Don't talk about teaching yourself, getting anything but a dedicated trainer to learn on. Granted, the granny patrol is generally right about the most successful way to learn, but they have a way of going very Nazi on newbies that stray.

thanks for the replies about ARF vs kits. i do have a bunch of tools, except for dremel, sanding blocks, build surface, heat gun. didn't know all the glue and covering would be that expensive. i used to make hinge pins and fuel tanks from tin sheets the good ol' days when i was a kid and had no video games or internet or 400 TV channels or women to distract me (i'm only 31 btw).

i do think building from scratch is fun, but extreeeemely time consuming. kits seem to be a bit quicker, but still take a while. are there any simpler kits that may not have the best rigidity, but won't make you cry a river when you crash while learning to fly?

speaking of unassissted learning. it seems like most pilots say it's mandatory for planes because of take offs and landings, but optional for heli. i built and learned to fly my first .50 nitro heli with absolutely no one looking over the machine when it was built and yet it hovered perfectly hands off and nothing came apart. For airplanes though, is it also important for an experienced pilot to look it over, considering it's all covered up anyway and the only outside adjustments are for throws, thrust angle and CG? I've also noticed a lot of Nazi grannies here "encouraging" people to venture on their own. Now, do you guys think a flat foamie is a good first plane that can be learned unassissted? Will it teach a lot of bad habits?

Get an instructor- it's fun to socialize and learn! I've got time in a Cherokee 140, Cessna 150, New Standard and Canadair RS700. Model airplanes ain't the same as the big 'uns! Look at my Gallery to see some of the planes I've built. I welcome all to the 'Land of the Scratchbuilder'. Good luck!!!!!!!

Helicopters are easier to learn without an instructor IMO because you can barely lift off the ground with no airspeed and just hover there until you gain confidence and skill. Of course that is simplified but to get a plane in the air you need ground speed which decreases reaction time. If you freak out with a heli a few inches off the ground chop the throttle and maybe you replace blades but probably no damage. A plane takes off and gets into the air, especially trainers, climb quick. If you freak out with a plane 15' off the ground you could get lucky and replace a propor end up with no plane. Adding the ground speed and the way a plane flies makes it more difficult to get in the air without instruction safely as a newbie.

I suppose even if you had a trainer on heli it would be tough for an instructor to "save" an out of whack heli. I guess it is just a totally different animal.


The grannies you talk about give good advice maybe could just say it less agressively and see other possibilties. They are trying to help but could be nicer about it. People come and go all the time because they try to learn on their own and wreck. Some people come on and say well i learned on my own. The people that tried to learn on their own and failed (a lot more than suceeded) aren't commenting because they quit RC.

Joizexx

There are a set of skill acquired as you are in the hobby. Many of the skills have nothing to do with flying. For example: being able to identify weaknesses in the design of an ARF and make reinforcements, quickly spotting missing screws or retainers on a model brought to the field by someone else, having an instinct for the CG on a sweep wing design (and knowing some of the math), etc.

Internet forums help transfer this knowledge. Doing - i.e. experience - helps develop knowledge (often by learning from mistakes). Working with other modelers helps transfer knowledge. Some mistakes in "doing" result in wrecks, some just lessons. For example, I landed once and had the aileron servo horn pop off because I forgot to put the screw back in... No crash - but there could have been...

So, while many think an instructor or helper is primarily about flying in truth they there to provide a whole domain of expertise.

That said, I taught myself - no buddy box - maidened my own planes - but, I had input from an experienced modeler early. That helped.... To a certain degree places like this can be a surrogate for that helper. So, this forum is not as good as a person helping you in person which is still not as good as an instructor. But all these sources can contribute to knowledge that doesn't come at the risk of doing - at least doing prematurely. Hope this makes sense...

A plane, like a heli, has many failure points. Many are obvious, but surprisingly these get overlooked in the excitement of a new model - things like screwing down servo horns, installing push rod keepers, or checking ailerons move the correct way. This is where it matters what kind of person is going it alone. Some people read the directions 4 times, check everything 4 times, and carefully think about the model and what could go wrong. Other people are easier going, less focused, or whatever. Clearly the careful person will have a higher probability of getting the build right... Flying is a different matter altogether. Comfort with the controller, reaction times, grasp of orientation, and other factors become more important.

Anyway - I believe foam is a good way to learn by yourself, but I'd avoid a profile model with large control surfaces. The Multiplex easy star is an ideal go it alone model in my opinion. The MiniMag might work too, more advanced but still very tough... Both would teach you plenty, take abuse, and amuse you for a while. When you move on it'll make it easier.

Hope this helps

Fly it will ya. Your son can fly, give the transmitter back to him if you get in trouble or nervous. Was doing it that way with a friend about a month ago with a hobbico avistar. she took off fine. started a turn to come back to us and rolled the plane on it's back, and about a 45 degree dive inverted. handed me the tx about 20' agl. I GOT TO CRASH ANOTHER ONE!! Lucky me. She wasn't upset and I was laughung my ***** off. (inside) She went out and bought the exact same plane and WE built it in two afternoons. The original was RTF. So now she knows a little about construction. She had NO clue before. Think she'll want to buddy box again before another solo attempt though. She doesn't like the looking over her shoulder trick when plane is heading towards her. To each their own. Don't forget to bring the camera. I always take pix of a new plane before I fly it. What I tell my 14 year old son when he's going off on a field trip, outing, etc is..... "don't do this, make sure you do that, behave, BUT MOST OF ALL HAVE FUN!!!!" So HAVE FUN! Fun can be rebuilding or building too! I like to build for myself.
I have a friend that comes over on saturdays or sundays to build his. He uses my experience while gaining his own.
Can't wait for your results. I'm rootin' for ya.
Just recieved my 25% yak 54 yesterday. With any luck a maiden on Sunday.
RED

Hey Paul, where in WI are you located? My place is down by Richland Center.
Oh, I can vouch for the weather as of late. WI seems to be in the El Nino pattern with unseasonably cool temps, lots of T-Storms, and then patches of blistering 90's. Weird Weather this summer. More often than not, my Tues / Thurs flight nights have been ruined by bad weather.

I learned by buying a Hobby Zone Super Cub that I flew at my home and then when I wanted to fly Glow, I joined AMA and saught out an instructor and flying feild. It sounds like you have both in your Son and Farm... Lucky Dog.