CGr,

Just so you're aware....I'm lurking in here, and you're paying me back for Stick and Rudder.

This is all true, Chris, and you are one that knows this better than most. The problem comes when a beginner gets overwhelmed with specifics and detail that, most likely would go un-noticed because most beginners to pattern are more busy flyhing and re-learning to fly (yeah, relearning because it's easy, once solo and flying for a while, to take off, fly the circuit, then land, but a totally different scenario when trying to do precision when at times, it takes two or three orbits just to set the trim right, and that means right for sport flying, and not pattern).

So, like everything else, we start from the beginning, directly from take off, to flying the first turn to set up for the first trim pass.

You had an advantage because you were already savy to certain aspects of RC that many others did not, and you were surrounded by people that had been there and done that, ie. The Lockharts and Zeigenfus, and Rick, and others. Pilots like Goirish are not that lucky and are, pretty much self taught from the point of flying sport flying in his "back yard" to trying to move up to pattern. As I said, we have start somewhere. My suggestion that flying a straight line and leaning stick control are bsics. Your suggestion about tension is right on the money, and I forgot about that.. how could I.. Ron drilled that into me too!!

CGr

You too, Gordon.. are a mentor, and I thank you for that. You tend to keep me honest, which is a good thing.

Dick.

In this case, Dick, you are the mentor.

Now that I finally have a truly high quality aircraft, I feel like I did when I got my Porsche....yeah, i CAN go out and have a good time with it, but it's a MACHINE that practically BEGS to be operated well. It's almost as though it smirks at you if you don't.

I still feel that I'll never want to compete. Despite a strong competitive nature, pattern aerobatics just doesn't hold the sort of fascination for me that I'd need to stay dedicated enough to compete well...and i refuse to do less. *heh*

However, I DO find myself wanting to fly maneuvers well, and getting annoyed at myself when I don't. So seeing you guys bat about various "beginners' tips" in here is quite rewarding and helpful. Indeed, just yesterday, I flew a GORGEOUS (for me) slow roll that outclassed anything I'd ever seen out of myself.

Well, thanks, Gordon.

A slow roll is one of the pretiest maneuvers I've ever seen. Very graceful and picturesque. I guess one has to be a model flyer to appreciate that.

About, oh, a year or so after I solo'ed, I had my Tiger 60 and was flying it pretty good, always learning. My original instructor, Ron, would show me maneuvers, and show me how to do them, so I moved into maneuvers slowly not realizing that Ron was setting me up for the big question.. would I be interested in flying pattern. So, when he finally did, he said "Dick, you are flying that Tiger pretty good now. Why don't you learn to string those maneuvers together and learn pattern?"

So, I did just that. And I bought four (Or was it five???) cases of fuel and headed out to the field as often as I could, which was two times a week, at minimum, learning the sportsman pattern sequences.

At the time, I was one of the lead engineers on a project that had me traveling over to England, Oklahoma City, and other places, and I was gone for long periods of time, so my flying was interrupted by work.. what a reality trip that was..

I eventually learned all the basics, starting off with stick control and straight line flight, then proper and quick trim, and so on. But, I never made it to a competition even though Ron would ask me frequently when I was going to take that Tiger to a competition. Time just was not on my side, so I never stopped "training".

Eventually, I bought a Venus 40, which was an entry level real pattern plane, but smaller than the two meter birds the "pro's" were flying, but quite capable in it's own right, and flew it for quite a while. A simple mistake.. yeah, ahem... stick control, planted that nice airplane. The wing broke away because of nylon bolts, and, strangely, I still have that wing.

I moved up to a 90 size pattern plane with an Excelleron 90 then a Venus II (both of which I still own and still fly), very VERY capable aircraft, but never really had the time to compete.

So, I fly the planes, fly the routines, modified as I see fit and how I like to fly, just to relax and enjoy the day without the necessary discipline. But, I believe I"ve become a better pilot for the training and discipline that I DID have when learning, and I try to apply that to my flying every time I'm out there, always trying to do a better landing, or a better roll out, or a nicer turn, or a straight up vertical climb, and so on.. so you can take the pattern out of the pilot but not the pilot out of the pattern... or whatever that may be.. .

So, I too mostly fly for the sport and relaxation, and really smile when a maneuver comes off as nice as it could in competition, but without the pressure.

Dick.

Yes they do help out a bunch. The way my hands shake sometimes [not always] I can see my planes moving when I'm flying at the level, I don't ever set up one of my planes without a bunch of expo.
From a thread Joe started in Q&A I plan on giving my TX more stick tension when I get it back. I'm grounded for a while until I get it back from Radio South, just needed a little tune up!! I sure miss it though.

Went out lastnight to do the routine. Boy!!!! do I need PRACTICE!!!! It sure is different that just punching holes in the sky. Was using my big stick. Rolls are not real good with it. [&o][&o]

A roll is tougher than it looks, when you are trying to keep the nose headed in a level direction. It requires coordination of aileron plus elevator in the right amount as the plane rolls to hold the nose steady when it approaches inverted then coordination to remove it as the plane rolls upright. Ummm... takes practice..

After you do the routine a few times, you tend to see what maneuver you need to practice on and just do that one over and over again.

I believe even the landing is scored!!! A bad landing, go around, bounce, long or short landing, are all cause for points deducted. Eventually, though, you get the ideaa and begin to string the maneuvers together, including the landing.

Usually, you can time your sequence, never pushing it, and perhaps if you do it right, you get in three or four complete sequences in a tank of fuel. However, often, I just did two and landed. That was exhausting enough.. all that focus. You will begin to see why it takes dedication and time.

Do you have a simulator? There are very few pattern planes in the typical sim set. But, you can often pick one of the 3D planes and do your pattern practice on the sim. At least, it helps with muscle memory... keying the hand-eye coordination with the brain and the muscles.

CGr.

Don't forget rudder!

Ah yes.. don't forget the rudder... [X(]

BUT... if they are built straight, if there is no wind, if you enter the roll from a straight line, if.. if.. if..

TSM!!! (Thanks So Much!!)


Besides.... we don't need no stinking rudder... [X(]





ps: Gordon: Looks like we're headed back to SDF on 27 July in N47 (Global 5000) and N49 (Convair 580) for a week, back to ACY on Friday then back to SDF on the following Monday for another four days.

CGr.

THe World Models Intruder http://www.airborne-models.com/html/...?ProductID=109 recommends a 91 four stroke. It is also legal for senior pattern association events if there are any in your area.

Yeah, that's pretty popular, along with the Kaos and the Brirdie (spelling).

CGr.

I'd submit that even in the most perfect of conditions, a truly straight slow roll will require some rudder...at least, it SHOULD.

Then again...you've actually DONE this stuff, and I haven't, so *** do I know?

I'll PM ya

Geez, rudder and elevator in a roll... wasn't I just talking about all that before I got pooped on?

Too Funny Joe

You didn't get pooped on, Joe, just straightened out..

No one was doubting rudder, but you came along a bit strong there, almost like "stick control was no big deal" when it IS a big deal. No doubt rudder comes in there, but the discussion was very basic stuff, which has to start somewhere.

I'm sure you recall when you were learning, you could learn just so much in a days session, then you sort of picked up where you left off in the next session, reinforcing what you learned previously, then adding to that. So, once one does a basic roll at the beginning of our RC "career", there is just aileron. We roll.. and WOW.. VOILA.. a roll!!

Then, we slow it down (speed AND roll rate) and begin to learn that it takes some elevator.. and AH.. some expo.. yeah.. in the roll to keep the nose up and straight, and it takes some time to learn when and how much elevator we need.

Then, after that's mastered, we begin to realize that to keep out the unwanted YAW, takes a little rudder, and not just adding rudder, but adding it at the right time and in the right amount. As I said, that is not osmosed... we learn it.

No doubt you were probably watching Dave when you were up in NY for that last pattern meet. Did you watch his hands? Go ahead and tell me that what he was doing didn't require more hands than two. I dare ya!!!

And, in the middle of all that, was throttle management, timely rudder input, plus perfect aileron and elevator control. PLUS the abilty to not only switch in and out various mixing settings, but to KNOW where those switches were without looking at them....

That all takes an awful lot of time, effort, and practice. His dad taught him to fly RC and his dad has been at this for almost 40 years!! Dave is what? 37? and he's been doing it since he was a kid.

Several of the pattern guys, Dave, his dad Ron, Joe, Rick, all chip in and buy fuel by the drum from S&W. And.. they burn it all! Dave now focuses on his electric pattern, so he has that Honda charger, and that huge LiPo battery charger, so he doesn't burn much glow fuel anymore.. I believe he said that he is pure electric with those Prestige's he flys... but the rest of them still burn that drum of fuel, and in fairly short order. That's a lot of fuel!!

That's how you get that good. I realized back when, that I didn't have that kind of time, so I dabble in it for recreation.. but I learned the hard way, "burning fuel" those summers a few years back.

CGr.

Sentry, go take a look in the classic pattern forum and the thread about the Acromaster!!! This is about the year when pattern pilots were getting into the TOC. There are a lot of old photos posted and they even posted the Sequence from 1978 plus what they were flying with all the specs. Some of the guys are getting together and buying the plans and building the plane. May be something worth getting into just for fun!!!
Gene

I just bought another 9C so I am never grounded due to TX problems. Now if I could just find the time and money
to fly. I use the spektrum 7200 dsm 2 module on it and it's been great. 2 9C's spread spectrum for under $450.

Very good choice of radio and I keep telling people to pick up a used 9-C and if they feel like it change it over to 2.4. I have too many planes to be changing over right now but I may do it in the future. My 9-C has had a lot of use and needed to go see Tony just to get a rest!!!

I've never tried one. I have two airtronics (actually three, but one is an older Quasar and does not get much use any more) plus two Spektrums, a DX6i and a DX7 and love them all. The Airtronics RD6000 was my first computer radio followed by the RD8000, then I had a Polk dial-a-crash, followed by the DX7 and then the DX6i. All are fine radios.. but I did not like that Polk.

Anyway, I'd certainly love to try out the new Futaba. The reports I hear, read, say they are quite nice. But, the DX7 and 6i are within my capabilities so they work just fine. I've never used them to their full potential, though, and will most likely never because I don't do all the mixing that the things are clearly capable of, and don't actually need to do with my style of flying.

Anyway, Irish, did you fly Pattern yesterday? Going to be able to fly today? It's actuall cool this morning here in NJ. Was 58 degrees F on the way to work at 6 AM. Brrr.. for July!!!! The news said it was caused by El Nino. What green house gasses cause El Nino I wonder [sm=bananahead.gif]

Later..

CGr.

On my way to the field to practice some more. Printed out the routine so I could take it with me. My memory is not what it used to be. I use to remember things for at least an hour, not it is a matter of seconds.

If you have the option, what's nice is to have someone behind you reading off each maneuver as you end the last one. Someone "calling" out the sequences. They have to recognize what maneuver you just completed so they know what's coming up next, then they have to have the right timing, sort of as you exit the maneuver to let you know what's coming up next so you can set it up.

You do this in just a second or two as you either finish up the maneuver or immediately after you exit the maneuver. We also try to stay one step ahead so you know what's coming and you can mentally prepare for it. That too takes.... yeah, you guessed it... practice.

Once you get into a "routine", meaning, after several outtings, and you are beginning to get comfortable with doing thing in sequence like that, you learn that, if you screw up a maneuver during practice, you can abort a maneuver, make a quick turn around, get into position, and do it again then continue.

Gene, there is a set of instructions, I have them somewhere, that outlines the step by step process of mechanically setting up your aircraft for pattern (or for anything else for that matter). It defines what happens during a series of maneuvers and how to make the mechanical corrections to get the plane "dialed" in properly. You would not believe how much subtle differences can make in the outcome of some maneuvers. The main point is to get it set up so your first pass after takeoff, the "trim pass" takes a minimum of electronic adjustment (TX trim tabs) to get it flying straight and level.

As always, one thing leads to another.. so the mechanical "dialing in" process starts out with a specific maneuver, then moves on in a serial fashion to the next logical step. Then, once you are done, you do it again. Like anything else, an adjustment here can change something there.. and so on, so you go through this several times, statistically, three times is probably the maximum because if you do it right, after three times, you begin to go through the motions and begin to actually change things back or make no appreciable changes the mechanical trim.

It takes several flights, because you make a flight, do a maneuver, land, make the adjustment, then put it back in the air and check it, land, make another slight adjustment, then take off, and check it. Then you move to the next maneuver or action, determine what needs to be changed, land, make the adjustment, takeoff.. and the routine goes on and on until you are finally finished.

Then, once done, you fly your pattern and can actually see the differences.. very dramatic. As I said, it takes time and patients, but it really helps dial in the subtle points of your particular aircraft. Some items will actually require you to make a change in the thrust angle of the engine!!! It gets town to that level!!! As I said, time consuming, but in the end, if you really want to do pattern, almost absolutely necessary.

Anyway, I'll try to find that adjustment sequence and Email it to you. I belive I have your Email address in my address book.

CGr.

[link=http://www.rcaerobats.net/trim_chart.htm]Trim chart[/link]

Phoenix models seabee is a great starter pattern plane, i bought the arf a couple months ago and put it together, i am a beginning pattern flyer also, i took the seebea to my club where we have a very high level pattern flyer and he really liked the plane.
it flies very well and is pretty easy on the pocket.

good luck

I had really great luck starting out with Phoenix planes. They have the Seabee, and also the Laser which looks like it's cut out for pattern. They tend to run on the heavier side but not too bad; could help actually if you want to stuff a bigger motor (like that .90 four stroke!) in there.