Rehinging help needed!!!
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From: Nutley,
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Im in the process of reworking a Funtana X100 which had a few problems when I received it. At the moment i am attempting to rehinge the tail surfaces. First I tried drilling the elevator out for 1/8" Robart hinge points using the Robart Drill Jig. Well that didnt work out so well. I couldnt get the holes aligned correctly. At this point im guessing that I will need to refill the holes with dowel and glue and start over or find another alternative. Could someone please offer some help on how to get these surfaces hinged.
First off, Im starting to think since the tail surfaces are not airfoiled, they might be too thin to use Robart hinges. At this point I am not at all opposed to using CA hinges again. Im just not seeing how since the old slots are pretty wide and havent left much fresh wood for new CA hinges.
I would appreciate any help offered to get over this hump. Thank you
First off, Im starting to think since the tail surfaces are not airfoiled, they might be too thin to use Robart hinges. At this point I am not at all opposed to using CA hinges again. Im just not seeing how since the old slots are pretty wide and havent left much fresh wood for new CA hinges.
I would appreciate any help offered to get over this hump. Thank you
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From: Brookville,
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For some unknown reason the pic wont load.
Is there room to cut new slots for ca hinges beside the old hinge?
Not a good idea to rehinge in the same slot.
Is there room to cut new slots for ca hinges beside the old hinge?
Not a good idea to rehinge in the same slot.
#5
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What happened was you tried to drill through the old CAhinge. The drill wanted to go on one side or the other but not down the center.
When you cut out an old hinge, you have to move the new hinge to fresh wood. It doesn't mater what type hinge you use, you can't put a new on over an old one. If you had a friend with a mill, they could use a 1/8" mill and drill a new hole over the old hinge, but you are going to have trouble shapping the hole top to fit the shoulder of the hinge. Find fresh wood and have a go there. If you are going to use the Robart hinges, they will give you a bit more leeway on where to drill the new holes. Just make sure that you have enough wood on the other side of the hinge.
Iaquired a Twist 150 that had never flown. When the guy was assembling it, he used the wrong CA and on a couple places on the ailerons, he didn't get CA into one side of the hinge. I cut them out and the drilled and fitted for Robart hinge points. Then I got to wondering if there was enough wood for them. Imade a little wire with a 90 degree on one end that would go through the 1/8" hole and Icould snag the back side of the wood to tell how long the hole was. Fear confirmed, so I cut the covering off bottom of the wing and ailerons and then glued in and inch and a half piece of wood the same thickness of the wood in the ailerons. Re drilled the holes and now I have a full three barbs in wood. While you have the covering off, it may be a good time to plan on doing this. You can also fill the hole you drilled, just make a dowl of balsa and use white glue and push it through.Cut and sand smooth.
Ilooks is if the balas next to the hole has been broken. If so, Iwould cut the entire piece off and replace it with new wood. I wouldn't trust a butt joint there, especiall close to a hinge.
Don
When you cut out an old hinge, you have to move the new hinge to fresh wood. It doesn't mater what type hinge you use, you can't put a new on over an old one. If you had a friend with a mill, they could use a 1/8" mill and drill a new hole over the old hinge, but you are going to have trouble shapping the hole top to fit the shoulder of the hinge. Find fresh wood and have a go there. If you are going to use the Robart hinges, they will give you a bit more leeway on where to drill the new holes. Just make sure that you have enough wood on the other side of the hinge.
Iaquired a Twist 150 that had never flown. When the guy was assembling it, he used the wrong CA and on a couple places on the ailerons, he didn't get CA into one side of the hinge. I cut them out and the drilled and fitted for Robart hinge points. Then I got to wondering if there was enough wood for them. Imade a little wire with a 90 degree on one end that would go through the 1/8" hole and Icould snag the back side of the wood to tell how long the hole was. Fear confirmed, so I cut the covering off bottom of the wing and ailerons and then glued in and inch and a half piece of wood the same thickness of the wood in the ailerons. Re drilled the holes and now I have a full three barbs in wood. While you have the covering off, it may be a good time to plan on doing this. You can also fill the hole you drilled, just make a dowl of balsa and use white glue and push it through.Cut and sand smooth.
Ilooks is if the balas next to the hole has been broken. If so, Iwould cut the entire piece off and replace it with new wood. I wouldn't trust a butt joint there, especiall close to a hinge.
Don
#6
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Whenever possible I prefer to use hinge points. But, before I ever installed one of them I drilled more holes than I could count. All of them practice holes. Get yourself some scrap balsa and practice drilling the holes in that. Make sure you do it on two pieces of wood at a time so you can practice getting the holes to line as you drill in both sides of the hinge. Keep practicing until you can do an entire hinge line (3-5 hinges) on the first try. THEN do the real thing on your control surface
Ken
Ken
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From: andover, MN
Ken is right on that
I had a easy one - On the Sr Telemaster ARF, just remove the screws and pull out and throw away the hinges that came on it and re insert with Dubro med size and epoxy and drill and reinsert the screws if you want to , I havent decided wheather to re do the screws or not - they would make a good backup and fill the hole already there
No easer than tha. Now if the Cub would work like that - some heave handed epoxy work was done on it prior to me getting the plane and I spent several hours doing a real careful job of getting all the control areas cleaned up for new hinges - Ya shouda seen the mess , some had places a full 1/4 inch gap - looked like they threw a glob of epoxy at the slot and stuck the hinge in and left big globs all over the hinge area, No wonder it never flew good -
I had a easy one - On the Sr Telemaster ARF, just remove the screws and pull out and throw away the hinges that came on it and re insert with Dubro med size and epoxy and drill and reinsert the screws if you want to , I havent decided wheather to re do the screws or not - they would make a good backup and fill the hole already there
No easer than tha. Now if the Cub would work like that - some heave handed epoxy work was done on it prior to me getting the plane and I spent several hours doing a real careful job of getting all the control areas cleaned up for new hinges - Ya shouda seen the mess , some had places a full 1/4 inch gap - looked like they threw a glob of epoxy at the slot and stuck the hinge in and left big globs all over the hinge area, No wonder it never flew good -
#8
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Take a look here. http://www.iroquois.free-online.co.uk/knot.htm Go down to the sewn hinges (also called figure 8 hinges). I use the close sewn hinges made with dental floss. Never had one fail. There needs to be a little clearance notch in the elevator (or stab) so you can get a tight fit on the hinge line.
#9
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I've got an orginal Quicke 500 and it has the over/under hinges on it. I hadn't seen them in four decades. I guess a good old idea never quite dies does it. The last one of those that I did was with silk ribbon. It didn't turn out very well, but when your only reference is a 5 year old model magazine, less thanhoped forresults are to be expected.
Can you imagine where the hobby would be today if the internet was avaiable back in say 1950 to share information and photos of what was going on in the hobby and to share ideas and experments.
Don
Can you imagine where the hobby would be today if the internet was avaiable back in say 1950 to share information and photos of what was going on in the hobby and to share ideas and experments.
Don
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From: OZark,
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I can't give any better than the guys have put out already. I would go with the close sewn hinge or replace some wood and redo the flat hinges. I try not to use less than 3 hinges on a surface for safety reasons.
Dental floss or dacron thread or kevlar tow or thread. You can get free Kevlar tow from anyone who does fiber optic line installation. Fiber optic line is a 3 part line. 1 outer plastic tube, 2 Kevlar tow and 3 a thin glass like element. Be carefull removing the parts, the fiber optic line can stick you good. Don't ask me how I know[:-]
kevlar is real handy in model building get a good supply they will just toss out the short pieces anyhow. Short pieces to a fiber optic splicer can easily be over 10 feet[8D]
Many phone or computer system installers will have this stuff. Kevlar is my favorite composite as it has no splinters or "stick in ya" properties.
Dental floss or dacron thread or kevlar tow or thread. You can get free Kevlar tow from anyone who does fiber optic line installation. Fiber optic line is a 3 part line. 1 outer plastic tube, 2 Kevlar tow and 3 a thin glass like element. Be carefull removing the parts, the fiber optic line can stick you good. Don't ask me how I know[:-]
kevlar is real handy in model building get a good supply they will just toss out the short pieces anyhow. Short pieces to a fiber optic splicer can easily be over 10 feet[8D]
Many phone or computer system installers will have this stuff. Kevlar is my favorite composite as it has no splinters or "stick in ya" properties.
#11
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From: Nutley,
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ORIGINAL: Campgems
What happened was you tried to drill through the old CA hinge. The drill wanted to go on one side or the other but not down the center.
When you cut out an old hinge, you have to move the new hinge to fresh wood. It doesn't mater what type hinge you use, you can't put a new on over an old one. If you had a friend with a mill, they could use a 1/8'' mill and drill a new hole over the old hinge, but you are going to have trouble shapping the hole top to fit the shoulder of the hinge. Find fresh wood and have a go there. If you are going to use the Robart hinges, they will give you a bit more leeway on where to drill the new holes. Just make sure that you have enough wood on the other side of the hinge.
I aquired a Twist 150 that had never flown. When the guy was assembling it, he used the wrong CA and on a couple places on the ailerons, he didn't get CA into one side of the hinge. I cut them out and the drilled and fitted for Robart hinge points. Then I got to wondering if there was enough wood for them. I made a little wire with a 90 degree on one end that would go through the 1/8'' hole and I could snag the back side of the wood to tell how long the hole was. Fear confirmed, so I cut the covering off bottom of the wing and ailerons and then glued in and inch and a half piece of wood the same thickness of the wood in the ailerons. Re drilled the holes and now I have a full three barbs in wood. While you have the covering off, it may be a good time to plan on doing this. You can also fill the hole you drilled, just make a dowl of balsa and use white glue and push it through. Cut and sand smooth.
I looks is if the balas next to the hole has been broken. If so, I would cut the entire piece off and replace it with new wood. I wouldn't trust a butt joint there, especiall close to a hinge.
Don
What happened was you tried to drill through the old CA hinge. The drill wanted to go on one side or the other but not down the center.
When you cut out an old hinge, you have to move the new hinge to fresh wood. It doesn't mater what type hinge you use, you can't put a new on over an old one. If you had a friend with a mill, they could use a 1/8'' mill and drill a new hole over the old hinge, but you are going to have trouble shapping the hole top to fit the shoulder of the hinge. Find fresh wood and have a go there. If you are going to use the Robart hinges, they will give you a bit more leeway on where to drill the new holes. Just make sure that you have enough wood on the other side of the hinge.
I aquired a Twist 150 that had never flown. When the guy was assembling it, he used the wrong CA and on a couple places on the ailerons, he didn't get CA into one side of the hinge. I cut them out and the drilled and fitted for Robart hinge points. Then I got to wondering if there was enough wood for them. I made a little wire with a 90 degree on one end that would go through the 1/8'' hole and I could snag the back side of the wood to tell how long the hole was. Fear confirmed, so I cut the covering off bottom of the wing and ailerons and then glued in and inch and a half piece of wood the same thickness of the wood in the ailerons. Re drilled the holes and now I have a full three barbs in wood. While you have the covering off, it may be a good time to plan on doing this. You can also fill the hole you drilled, just make a dowl of balsa and use white glue and push it through. Cut and sand smooth.
I looks is if the balas next to the hole has been broken. If so, I would cut the entire piece off and replace it with new wood. I wouldn't trust a butt joint there, especiall close to a hinge.
Don
In the mean time..if I was to replace the wood, would I just cut at the outer edges of the black tape, replace and brace behind the butt joints? Just want to be sure as I explore options.
#12
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Ok, I've got a few things to say on this...
First, you said you can't move the hinges because they would go into the cross bracing - So what? That's not going to hurt anything.
Next, cutting the LE on the black tape would not normally be the way to do it as you would want to avoid a seam in the LE at all cost. However, in this case you could get away with it because if you are going to use Robart hinges, the LE will need to be wider to accomodate the longer hinge.
So you can kill two birds with one stone by doing this:
Remove a section of LE and replace. Now cut a longer piece and glue it in behind the cut section so that it braces all cut lines.
Now the cuts are reinforced and you have plenty of thickness for the longer hinges.
First, you said you can't move the hinges because they would go into the cross bracing - So what? That's not going to hurt anything.
Next, cutting the LE on the black tape would not normally be the way to do it as you would want to avoid a seam in the LE at all cost. However, in this case you could get away with it because if you are going to use Robart hinges, the LE will need to be wider to accomodate the longer hinge.
So you can kill two birds with one stone by doing this:
Remove a section of LE and replace. Now cut a longer piece and glue it in behind the cut section so that it braces all cut lines.
Now the cuts are reinforced and you have plenty of thickness for the longer hinges.
#13
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From: Nutley,
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ORIGINAL: MinnFlyer
Ok, I've got a few things to say on this...
First, you said you can't move the hinges because they would go into the cross bracing - So what? That's not going to hurt anything.
Next, cutting the LE on the black tape would not normally be the way to do it as you would want to avoid a seam in the LE at all cost. However, in this case you could get away with it because if you are going to use Robart hinges, the LE will need to be wider to accomodate the longer hinge.
So you can kill two birds with one stone by doing this:
Remove a section of LE and replace. Now cut a longer piece and glue it in behind the cut section so that it braces all cut lines.
Now the cuts are reinforced and you have plenty of thickness for the longer hinges.
Ok, I've got a few things to say on this...
First, you said you can't move the hinges because they would go into the cross bracing - So what? That's not going to hurt anything.
Next, cutting the LE on the black tape would not normally be the way to do it as you would want to avoid a seam in the LE at all cost. However, in this case you could get away with it because if you are going to use Robart hinges, the LE will need to be wider to accomodate the longer hinge.
So you can kill two birds with one stone by doing this:
Remove a section of LE and replace. Now cut a longer piece and glue it in behind the cut section so that it braces all cut lines.
Now the cuts are reinforced and you have plenty of thickness for the longer hinges.
#14
Senior Member
I'll add one more thing also. I really like Minnflier's recomendation. Iwould tack glue a strip flull length of the surface about 1/2" behind the Leading edge prior to makeing the cuts.That will keep from squeezing or spreading the LE when the replacements are put in place. You could also do a serious pin job on a building board, leaving the width of the LE hanging over the edge. You don't wan't to build a twist into it with the repairs. Once the LErepairs are made, then remove the strip.
Don
Don
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From: Nutley,
NJ
ORIGINAL: Campgems
I'll add one more thing also. I really like Minnflier's recomendation. I would tack glue a strip flull length of the surface about 1/2'' behind the Leading edge prior to makeing the cuts. That will keep from squeezing or spreading the LE when the replacements are put in place. You could also do a serious pin job on a building board, leaving the width of the LE hanging over the edge. You don't wan't to build a twist into it with the repairs. Once the LE repairs are made, then remove the strip.
Don
I'll add one more thing also. I really like Minnflier's recomendation. I would tack glue a strip flull length of the surface about 1/2'' behind the Leading edge prior to makeing the cuts. That will keep from squeezing or spreading the LE when the replacements are put in place. You could also do a serious pin job on a building board, leaving the width of the LE hanging over the edge. You don't wan't to build a twist into it with the repairs. Once the LE repairs are made, then remove the strip.
Don

This plane will one day fly again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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From: Nutley,
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ORIGINAL: MinnFlyer
Ok, I've got a few things to say on this...
First, you said you can't move the hinges because they would go into the cross bracing - So what? That's not going to hurt anything.
Next, cutting the LE on the black tape would not normally be the way to do it as you would want to avoid a seam in the LE at all cost. However, in this case you could get away with it because if you are going to use Robart hinges, the LE will need to be wider to accomodate the longer hinge.
So you can kill two birds with one stone by doing this:
Remove a section of LE and replace. Now cut a longer piece and glue it in behind the cut section so that it braces all cut lines.
Now the cuts are reinforced and you have plenty of thickness for the longer hinges.
Ok, I've got a few things to say on this...
First, you said you can't move the hinges because they would go into the cross bracing - So what? That's not going to hurt anything.
Next, cutting the LE on the black tape would not normally be the way to do it as you would want to avoid a seam in the LE at all cost. However, in this case you could get away with it because if you are going to use Robart hinges, the LE will need to be wider to accomodate the longer hinge.
So you can kill two birds with one stone by doing this:
Remove a section of LE and replace. Now cut a longer piece and glue it in behind the cut section so that it braces all cut lines.
Now the cuts are reinforced and you have plenty of thickness for the longer hinges.
#18
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From: Nutley,
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ORIGINAL: RCKen
If you're using CA hinges, then you need to use thin CA. If you are going to use hinge points then you want to use epoxy.
Ken
If you're using CA hinges, then you need to use thin CA. If you are going to use hinge points then you want to use epoxy.
Ken
#22
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OK, another trick. Ihate CA, I always get to much on and have these razor sharp fillets that you just can't sand smooth without cutting the balsa away around it.
Iused to be a jeweler and one my "tools" was craft sticks, IEpopsicle sticks" that I glued wet or dry sand paper onto. I started at 280 and went up to 1000 grit. I could use an Xacto knive and cut them to thin strips and modify the sides for getting into tight spots.
I was working on a 4*60 and Sig recomends Ca for just about everything. Come time to cover, there were enough knife egdes of Ca to make me question if the covering would hold up. I tried garnet paper and other stuff and was successful in screwing up a couple ribs in the process. In frustration, I grabbed a 320 grit stick and what a susprise, It eats CA. It is also so fine that it really doesn't do much damage to balsa unless you dig in an edge. They make a great little tool to get into the tight corneres and cut the CA back to where you want it andround the edges.
Just take a sheet of wet or dry and lay it face down on some news papers. Spray the back with some 77 adheasive. Don't skimp.Then lay out the craft sticks in a nice pattern for best coverage. Press them down tight and then the next day, use your Xactor knife to cut the sticks from the wet or dry sheet from the stick side. As long as you cut from the back, you can shape and taper the stick as needed and keep the wet or dry active right to the edge. When the edge gets a little worn, put it face down onsome scrapwoodand cut a new edge on it. A great and inexpensive tool to sand the tight spots and clean up the hardened CA. They don't work on Epoxy though.
Don
Iused to be a jeweler and one my "tools" was craft sticks, IEpopsicle sticks" that I glued wet or dry sand paper onto. I started at 280 and went up to 1000 grit. I could use an Xacto knive and cut them to thin strips and modify the sides for getting into tight spots.
I was working on a 4*60 and Sig recomends Ca for just about everything. Come time to cover, there were enough knife egdes of Ca to make me question if the covering would hold up. I tried garnet paper and other stuff and was successful in screwing up a couple ribs in the process. In frustration, I grabbed a 320 grit stick and what a susprise, It eats CA. It is also so fine that it really doesn't do much damage to balsa unless you dig in an edge. They make a great little tool to get into the tight corneres and cut the CA back to where you want it andround the edges.
Just take a sheet of wet or dry and lay it face down on some news papers. Spray the back with some 77 adheasive. Don't skimp.Then lay out the craft sticks in a nice pattern for best coverage. Press them down tight and then the next day, use your Xactor knife to cut the sticks from the wet or dry sheet from the stick side. As long as you cut from the back, you can shape and taper the stick as needed and keep the wet or dry active right to the edge. When the edge gets a little worn, put it face down onsome scrapwoodand cut a new edge on it. A great and inexpensive tool to sand the tight spots and clean up the hardened CA. They don't work on Epoxy though.
Don
#23
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From: Nutley,
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ORIGINAL: Campgems
OK, another trick. I hate CA, I always get to much on and have these razor sharp fillets that you just can't sand smooth without cutting the balsa away around it.
I used to be a jeweler and one my ''tools'' was craft sticks, IE popsicle sticks'' that I glued wet or dry sand paper onto. I started at 280 and went up to 1000 grit. I could use an Xacto knive and cut them to thin strips and modify the sides for getting into tight spots.
I was working on a 4*60 and Sig recomends Ca for just about everything. Come time to cover, there were enough knife egdes of Ca to make me question if the covering would hold up. I tried garnet paper and other stuff and was successful in screwing up a couple ribs in the process. In frustration, I grabbed a 320 grit stick and what a susprise, It eats CA. It is also so fine that it really doesn't do much damage to balsa unless you dig in an edge. They make a great little tool to get into the tight corneres and cut the CA back to where you want it and round the edges.
Just take a sheet of wet or dry and lay it face down on some news papers. Spray the back with some 77 adheasive. Don't skimp. Then lay out the craft sticks in a nice pattern for best coverage. Press them down tight and then the next day, use your Xactor knife to cut the sticks from the wet or dry sheet from the stick side. As long as you cut from the back, you can shape and taper the stick as needed and keep the wet or dry active right to the edge. When the edge gets a little worn, put it face down on some scrap wood and cut a new edge on it. A great and inexpensive tool to sand the tight spots and clean up the hardened CA. They don't work on Epoxy though.
Don
OK, another trick. I hate CA, I always get to much on and have these razor sharp fillets that you just can't sand smooth without cutting the balsa away around it.
I used to be a jeweler and one my ''tools'' was craft sticks, IE popsicle sticks'' that I glued wet or dry sand paper onto. I started at 280 and went up to 1000 grit. I could use an Xacto knive and cut them to thin strips and modify the sides for getting into tight spots.
I was working on a 4*60 and Sig recomends Ca for just about everything. Come time to cover, there were enough knife egdes of Ca to make me question if the covering would hold up. I tried garnet paper and other stuff and was successful in screwing up a couple ribs in the process. In frustration, I grabbed a 320 grit stick and what a susprise, It eats CA. It is also so fine that it really doesn't do much damage to balsa unless you dig in an edge. They make a great little tool to get into the tight corneres and cut the CA back to where you want it and round the edges.
Just take a sheet of wet or dry and lay it face down on some news papers. Spray the back with some 77 adheasive. Don't skimp. Then lay out the craft sticks in a nice pattern for best coverage. Press them down tight and then the next day, use your Xactor knife to cut the sticks from the wet or dry sheet from the stick side. As long as you cut from the back, you can shape and taper the stick as needed and keep the wet or dry active right to the edge. When the edge gets a little worn, put it face down on some scrap wood and cut a new edge on it. A great and inexpensive tool to sand the tight spots and clean up the hardened CA. They don't work on Epoxy though.
Don
#24
I think I'd take a completely different approach. Sure you could re-hinge the existing elevators but it wouldn't take hardly any time at all to just lay some waxed paper over them, grab some balsa sticks and a razor saw & make new ones. If the stab is glued in that might be tougher to rebuild but not impossible if you could somehow remove it. You could also likely figure out away to replace the TE on the existing stab. I've done this a lot on damaged ARF's rather than trying to repair damage to simply constructed sections like these elevators.
I'm not necessarily saying it is the first method to choose but it might be an option if re-hinging isn't easy.
I'm not necessarily saying it is the first method to choose but it might be an option if re-hinging isn't easy.
#25
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From: Nutley,
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Id like to thank you all for the help. I think I am now ready to begin the replacement of the leading edge of the elevator, and will need to do the same for the T/E of the stab. I picked up a piece of balsa that was the exact height, however will need to cut and sand to the correct width, plus sand the angle on the edges. I wasnt able to find a piece having the same width and height that would just need to have the angles sanded in.
Before I begin, does anyone have any tips on how to insure perfectly straight cuts, and nice sanding of the angles? I will be using basic hand tools and sanding paper/blocks. Id like to get this right the first time (after ive glued that is).
Thanks again for the help so far.
Before I begin, does anyone have any tips on how to insure perfectly straight cuts, and nice sanding of the angles? I will be using basic hand tools and sanding paper/blocks. Id like to get this right the first time (after ive glued that is).
Thanks again for the help so far.



