I am at the stage in my training of I can fly anything that's steady in the air and I hate the take off and landings. Its the landings that have taken the biggest tole on my aircraft. Now for some history I'm 63 years old I flew ,well tryed to fly radio when I was 17 years with little joy. Now in those times every body flew till they ran out of fuel then landed anywhere on the footy oval or near by,the main aim was get it on the ground with no damage. I find it far safer to land with on power motor out. I have been able to do this about twenty times with no damage to aircraft and all with in 50 meters of the strip.Every time I have tryed with the motor running trying to hit the strip its ended in disaster. The instructors that I've seen are all into this 'You must come in with the engine running' I am putting this post out there hoping to get how you feel about this topic and your reasons. yours Paul T

Why?
What has gone wrong?
Too much speed to react on time?
Early stall?

This article describes the basics, step by step:

http://www.masportaviator.com/ah.asp?CatID=8&ID=20

After you understand each step, it is just a matter of practicing and more practicing.
Don't worry, it has been dificult for anyone of us.

If the motor is out you seem to have a slower speed,You know there is only one place to go and that down so all thoughts are on this area. there is no one thing that I do each time EG I've taken out the under carrage on three occations, Diped a wing tip twice and had the Instructor take over many times. Motor out I can glide in ,no pressure its a piece of cake,Then they all start you need the motor going in case you get into trouble To which I reply The motor going is the problem for me. Yours Paul T

Hello Paul:

The is one thing you could try, is to fit a finer pitch propeller on your engine. That would mean that the speed the plane travels when the engine is idling will be slower.

I hope that helps.

Bye, Ian

I sympathize. I learned in the 70's on two channel gliders. Every landing a dead-stick and, for some reason, easier than my early powered R/C attempts. The secret is to slow the model down and get it low BEFORE the final approach. Coming in hot and at 40 feet up won't give you space to bleed of speed and altitude. When you realize it's not dropping you point the nose down and that makes her speed up. Bouncy, bouncy.

You want it about stalled when the wheels touch. On a hotter model that's often not a problem as they have a higher (and more violent) stall speed. Trainers have a light wing loading and take a lot of trying to get them to stall. Take her down to a crawl on the last downwind leg before the turn. Takes a lot of practice to know how your model slows, and the tendency is to come in "two mistakes high", which, unfortunately, is too high for landing. Also helps to have a very low idle. On my radios I set a low idle switch that is too slow for taxiing on the ground (konks out in 20 seconds or so) but allows for as slow an approach as possible in the air. A lower pitch prop will also help from the drag effect at low speed.

I still have a good reputation for smooth dead sticks at our club. They don't bother me much. I had over a dozen eventless dead-stick landings in one day with a @!%#^ Kangle engine I was trying to get running. On the other hand - my reputation for tuning glow engines isn't so good.

Hi Paul,

This advice is predicated on the motor being tuned to provide a reliable and slow idle with the appropriate size and pitch of prop.

With the motor on you can go around again if you arn't on the proper glide slope or lined up with the strip. Don't be afraid to power on and go around if you arn't 100% happy with your approach. What ever you do don't just "dump" the model on if all isn't going well with the approach speed, glide slope or orientation with the strip.

There isn't any substitute for practice . Shoot touch and goes endlessly until you can put the model where you want it is my advice. To help with this process put a strip of plastic tape or similar on the strip where you want/need to touch down and try to land on it . In my experience it also helps most students if there is a little wind to land into.

Cheers,

Colin

Something that many R/C pilots never really learn is to fly a good solid landing pattern. This allows you to concentrate on the landing more easly when you always set it up the same each time. With enough practice you can more easly see when to make adjustments to altitude or airspeed before it becomes a problem. Find a trim setting for landing and always use that setting, this will give you the same airspeed (or close to it depending on fuel load) every time. With a landing trim setting you just need a little throttle up to slow the descent or throttle back to increase the descent. You will find that this will make for a very easy approach and landing when your not chasing the airspeed with the elevator. Remeber use your trim through the whole flight. It's not just a one time adjustment. Full size A/C trim for airspeed in all phases of flight, and models should also. Once you really learn these areas you will more easly be able to improvise later.

One advice I got as a trainee was point it away from the crowd, go to idle and let it land (the trainer that is). Apply corrections only if you are pointing it at someone or if you are landing in a cross wind. Even if you land far away, you can taxi in or at worst go and pick it up.

I have been flying for 3 years now and still worry about landings, so yours is not a unique case. When the engine is out, you land OK. This implies you are not concentrating hard enough with the engine on.

I guess a simulator will help here. Try to put the thing down on the tarmac everytime and you will pickup. Another technique I used as a trainee was practice flying on the sim at 40% throttle or less. At that much power you will need to be very careful in your turns; a little too much elevator and the thing will stall. Be patient with this approach as initially you will not be able to finish the turn at all. After some time, the thumbs will start to react on their own when the airplane is about to stall. This will let you develop the fine control and reflexes you need. In effect the airplane will tell you when it is about to stall. Make sure that you fly a similar model on the sim as in real life. That is the way I sharpen myself even today before I leave for the field.

On the field try to be smooth with your control inputs, I observed that helps as well. Hope this approaach helps you out.

Ameyam

It sounds to me as if your idle is too high. What engine and prop are you running? What is the RPM at idle? If you have a reliable idle that's low enough, you may find that your airspeed will actually be lower than dead stick. A prop spinning slower than the plane needs, will act as an air brake of sorts.

I'm 60 and have been flying and instructing for 45 years. Time and time again, I'd get beginners having trouble with landing and the solution was to get the engine idling reliably and at low RPMs.

I fly mostly 1/2A as in Norvel .049s and 06s. Engines this small were once regarded as almost impossible to get a reliable and low idle. Much effort and research has shown that any engine, no matter the size can have a low and reliable idle. The trick is to get the fuel mixture exactly right at all throttle settings. Most 1/2A engines don't have a throttle with any means to adjust the mixture at idle. It's been shown that you don't need a fancy, two needle throttle for this. Just a simple, adjustable airbleed will do.

Here, http://www.youtube.com/user/hopeso#p/u/8/CDcXLzJ6XbY you can see a Fora .020 with a throttle and muffler. You can hear the idle is solid and while the top end sounds a bit gnarly, a bit less nitro took care of that. And while 5K seems high compared to a typical .40, it's quite low for an .020. You'll land your 12 ounce plane easily at even 7K on this engine.

Here, http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...ter+minisport# you can see how much fun a reliably throttling engine can be. Note that this is a diesel, running in winter.

When I'm training new pilots, I have them trim the elevator and throttle so that their plane is doing a mild climb. Gentle turns spill just enough lift to maintain altitude. When I want them to go up, I tell them one click up on the throttle and continue to coach their turns. When I want them to descend, I ask for one click down on the throttle, again, coaching them with gentle turns. As they get comfortable, with making right and left hand turns, I have them do passes over the runway. Most times they're concentrating so much on the plane and my instructions, they hardly know they're over the runway. As they make these passes over the runway, I have them get lower and lower. Over the space of many flying sessions, they get more and more comfortable flying the plane low and slow. On one of those low passes, I'll tell them to chop the throttle and do nothing else. When the plane touches down, pretty as you please, at first they're in shock but immediately, that big ole grin from ear to ear comes on. This first landing is never announced ahead of time. No stress or fearful anticipation is involved. Avoiding white knuckle situations is the key.

Many thanks for all the reports that I'l read again and let it penertrate into the old head. To answer some of the Questions I was flying a Big T with an OS 55AX not sure of the prop and I just cant go and look as it was one of the many breakages I'v had on my way. Two weeks ago I powered the Big T with a Merco 61 less power than the 55 . The merco was turning a 12x6 prop. I also have two other trainers 60 inch wing span one powered by a Saito 45 the other powered by a OS 46 AX. If speed is the problem I will need to go back to the trainer powered by the Saito 45 but this is a harder aircraft to get in the air as the power is down in relation to the others. All three trainers have hit the ground hard on my landings. I've given myself a ""A"" for effort in trying. Remembe I have a 100% success rate on landing with the motor out and about 5% with it running. I will try the smaller pitch prop as you never run full throttle other than the take off. The weather hear will most likely give me the extra week required to re build the Big T Ive been flying every week end now since October last year and have just started on my third gallon of fuel this will give you some idea of how much flying that I have completed in my reintroduction to flying. My thinking hear is to land with the motor out and maybe the power type landings will come with time. Yours Paul T

Not a good idea, if you don't mind.
It is good to master dead stick landings, but to make it a regular practice is not so good.
The simple reason is that conditions and approaches are not always ideal, and the potential for damaging the model is high.

There is no need of damaging our precious models.
In your case, excess of dynamic energy has been damaging your plane.
The wheels are touching down with too much momentum, too much speed.

Hence, before attempting the next powered landing, you need to learn to slow down your plane for landing by practicing two things:

1) Learn to stall the wing. This is to be practiced and learned high enough as to give yourself room to point the nose down, build up speed and level the model before the model meets the dirt. Learn to do it slower and slower, until you learn the limit of that wing, at what speed and angle of attack it quits flying. It should quit below 30 mph and around 13 degrees of AOA.

2) Learn to manage the energy of your model. Height becomes speed and speed becomes height. The engine-propeller gives your model energy, which can be potential energy to climb or speed energy to fly level. You select the use of the energy generated by the engine at will by controlling the elevator.

After mastering both skills, you should be able to fly the whole approach pattern at a speed 20% above the stall speed that you have determined by experimentation and at a AOA just below 10 degrees (nose pointing slightly up). As explained by others above, this may be achieved by trimming the elevator up only for approach or (as I do) by keeping a constant slight pressure on the elevator stick.
The slope or rate of descend depends on the energy that your engine-propeller produces, which is to be controlled by small inputs in the throttle stick.

By doing that, your model will approach as slow as it can be without stalling the wing, with little dynamic energy (which translates in minimum frame damage in the event of a mishap).
About three feet high, cut the throttle completely, and use the elevator to fly level as long as you can, like trying to avoid a touch down.
Then you have landed.

Repeat 1001 times more.

Just making a wild stab in the dark here from everything the OP has said, and his responses to advice...

Personally,  Quigley...I think you're simply confused about what does what on the approach.

Simplest advice in the world for a landing approach.  Give it a try:

Throttle/motor controls altitude.  Airplane's too high?  Cut throttle.  Airplane's too low?  Add throttle.
Elevator controls airspeed.  Airplane's too fast?  Pull the nose up a bit.  Airplane's too slow?  Put the nose down a bit.

Give that thinking a try...I'd wager a round of drinks your worries about landing with the motor running will be gone in about 5-10 attempts.

When I was first learning I struggled more with my takeoffs than my landings. I know it is strange, but true. Two things that have helped me more than anything with landing in the exact order are:

1. KNOW the plane you are flying (This is too often overlooked)! The planes I struggle with landing the most are the ones I am not overly comfortably flying yet (small Revolver is one that has given me a fit - after about 25 flights now the landings can still be dicey!) [X(] Once I really learn my aircraft it makes landing all the difference for me. The more I get familiar and confident in the flying characteristics of the type of airplane the better my landings become.

2. Practice approaches over and over with variations in speed gently changing altitude. This one to me is a no brainer. I have observed the people that struggle the most with landing and what I found was that their approaches varied enormously and this always seemed to end up in broken gear or just bad landings in general. You may have one smooth greaser then the next one result in busted gear. They may enter the runway on one side, then on the next side, then too high, then too low, etc. I often will just fly landing approach patterns a half-dozen times or more in my first flight or two (as needed) to get me in the "zone" of comfort and it has proved invaluable for me and I believe has saved me a number of times.

I hope this can help someone. Each of us can contribute our part [8D]

Throttle management , a good approach and LOT'S of practice on passes. It will fall in place !!! ENJOY !!! RED

I have made a list of all the points and I will re-read them in the next week several times so when I'm out there next Sunday I can put the advice into practice without the need of over thinking the steps and I will report back my progress on this major problem I'm having after my next flying day. (maybe next Sunday but we here in Australia are in winter and the weather is bad for flying at the moment). Yours Paul T

Here is another thing too, If the engine idle is to high it will not slow the pane down enough to let it drop with a good glide path. Check your engine idle on he ground if the plane moves on the ground at idle it is to high.

Another thing to do is practice touch and goes. Especially if you are the only one flying at the moment. That is an excellent way to watch your plane for glide tendencies. If you do not like the approach power up and go around and do it again. The problem with many pilots they do not practice landing approaches and touch and goes enough. That is why they have trouble landing an airplane. Recently I was at the field flying my 116 inch wingspan Davis D1w and all I did was touch and goes and landings with it for a full tank of fuel.

Practice Practice practice. That is what makes you good at landings. try to get in closer so you can see the airplane clearly. too far away your judgement may not be as good resulting in a bad landing. If you botch the approach do not try to force it down. Power up and go around and setup up again. That way you can take a couple of deep breaths and calm down again. It works. Good Luck

Lots of good advice already given. If you're landing well without power,then you should be very close to being able to land with power,just takes a slightly different technique perhaps. Something that helped me when I was learning to land my trainer,is when I started trying to hold the plane just inches off the runway for as long as possible by very gradually feeding in some up elevator as the plane slows down(not so much that it climbs or stalls). In other words,try to line it up a ways away,then just before touchdown,try to keep it from touching down for awhile to bleed off speed and slow the descent. If done gradually enough,you can get the plane into a nose high attitude and use a little throttle to keep the plane from dropping too fast. Watch those wheels and try to set them down ever so gently on the main two wheels(I'm assuming it's a trike gear). You want to avoid letting the nose wheel touch first. If it bounces on touchdown,or you just don't feel comfortable with the way it's coming in,give it some throttle,let off the elevator a little,and go around for another try.

Now that said,my main problem early on was coming in too hot and bouncing. Maybe you're having a different problem,like lining up with the runway? If that's the case,practice low fly-by's over the runway til you improve at lining it up. When low to the ground,try to steer mostly with the rudder and keep the wings level with ailerons.

Good luck with it. Hopefully it will start to click soon,and you'll find like I have that landing is always a challenge,but it becomes a fun challenge rather than a scary one.

I have a simulator that has helped me tremendously. simulator is not perfect but pretty close. Treat each simulator flight as if it is a real flight and try not to crash it. And, if it crashes just hit the "Reset" button. Practice practice practice practice practice.

G'Day Paul,

You have more good advice here than any ten people could ever use. Having just returned from flying and cutting the umbillical cord with my latest student here is my second go at giving you advice.

Ask one of the experienced flyers to stand with you whils't you are landing and "talk" you through the process. They will be able to see what you are doing, both correctly and incorrectly and advise you accordingly.

If you get sick of the cold weather there down south and are joining the lemming like rush of "Grey Nomads" seeking warmer climes drop me a pm and I more than happy to meet you at our field just south of Port Macquarie and help you out with the landings. We have two adjacent strips at 90degrees to each other, one being 1500m of sealed runway and the other 200m of grass cross strip. Yes it is a small private airport.

Cheers,

Colin

Landing properly calls for triming the airplane and adjusting glide slope using throttle, not elevator. Elevator landings are usually porpoising type approach a couple bounces at touchdown. Elevator wouli be used at the end to stall the wing inches above the ground.

I am going to add/emphasize a couple of points

1 swop to a 13 x4 and make sure your idle is reasonably low.

2 don't practice landings practice approaches! Get used to flying a downwind leg, a cross wind leg and an into wind right on line with the strip and descending so you will hit the first 1/3 of the strip. Don't land open up and go round again. Do this until you get it right most times.

I see to many crashes/bad landings made off bad approaches, get the approach right and the landing is easy, just keep the wings level and a tiny flare at the last few inches.

That's the key.

Practice approaches until you don't even think about lining up or distances as it has become second nature.

Landings are trivial after that.

HI all ,Well I'm home from Flying and yes I was able to get the landings near perfect I did what I normaly do and that is fly my Butterfly first,then onto the trainer. Now the big ''T'' is still not ready for the air after last weeks flying so I took my Right Flyer 40 out which is powered by a Saito 45 . I put a 10 X 5 on it and off we went with the verbal help from others I was able to do around 7 landings in all without a major problem. Speed has been the problem with short approches. More practices next week. Many thanks to all who suported the thread I hope others can find help hear in the future. Yours Paul T Australia.

Really? Landings are honestly my favorite part of the entire flight. In fact, I love them so much that if given the chance I take the crosswind runway so I have to use a lot of rudder on the approach. Honestly, from reading what you said, I think it just comes with time. There isn't a better feeling than a perfectly flaired 0 bounce grease job!

I'd suggest doing touch and go's until you're confident. Good landings are really nothing more than having a good grasp on what the plane is ABOUT to do. Too many people also try and land with too little speed. They're the one's where the plane drops and the gears get busted up. Keep up a little speed if you're unsure. The greater the speed, the greater your need to coax the aircraft to the runway.

GREAT!