RE: High wind technique
 

The ailerons are "in reverse" and the rudder isn't? Not on my planet.

RE: High wind technique
 

Check my video. While the plane is on final look at the control sticks. I am doing almost nothing but using ailerons to correct my ground track and the nose is pointed right into the wind. The nose will naturally point itself into the wind unless you do something to correct it such as adding rudder and aileron for the flare. So yes a plane will weather vane on its own.

RE: High wind technique
 

Glad I could help!

RE: High wind technique
 

Sigh. As many, many posts here have noted, a plane flying in a steady wind "feels" no wind, and therefore cannot be turned in any direction. Wind is a mass of moving air; a plane flying in that mass of air has no wind blowing "at it" from the side, and will not turn. Gusts, of course, are a different matter, so a plane flying in the wind may turn in any direction because of gusts.

The usual illustration of this is somebody in a hot-air balloon flying an RC model around the balloon. The pilot of course feels no wind. People standing on the ground do. Does the plane? Of course not. Same even without the balloon.

Stick and Rudder, p. 340. "an airplane flying in a steady wind flies no differently from one in still air."

RE: High wind technique
 

Unless I slow down and start flying my plane backwards. I have a lot of fun doing that. Or turning cross wind and lift the wing and watch my plane flip over. Or if I'm in a verticle climb into the wind and the plane is pushed down wind. I do let the plane have it's own way quite a bit in the wind, it's a lot of fun.

RE: High wind technique
 

Of course you can fly backward in a strong enough wind. Nobody says the wind doesn't move the plane: the plane is carried right along with the moving mass of air. But the only wind relative to the plane is head on, just as in calm air. There is no force that can change this. The other things you mention are not caused by the wind hitting your plane. They're caused by the way you respond to the plane's motion. There is no possible way that turning crosswind and lifting the wing up will make your plane flip over. You are making it flip over by doing part of a roll. and you may be doing it unintentionally. If you are flying downwind before you turn what you're probably doing, to get a turn that looks like the turns you get in still air, is turning much more sharply: more aileron and more elevator. That's what makes you flip over. If you didn't turn more sharply, the plane's downwind motion would stretch out the turn and make it look odd,, so you "correct" for this without even thinking. That correction (or maybe the odd gust) is what flips your plane.

If you are in a full scale airplane, above the clouds so you can't see the ground, there is absolutely no way you can tell which direction a steady wind is blowing in.

Here's a nice illustration based on one that somebody used in an earlier thread. Suppose you are on the deck of an aircraft carrier, going north at 30 mph on a day when the wind is from the south at 30 mph. On the deck, you (and your model) will feel no wind at all. So you take off and fly around. Will your plane behave the way it does on a calm day at the field? Or will it "flip over" when you turn toward the east or west? It is, after all, flying in a 30 mph wind, in some sense. But, just as you can't feel that wind, neither can your plane. And if you jump off the deck into the water, you will now feel a lot of wind (until you get sucked into the props, I suppose). Does this mean your plane will now "feel the wind." Of course not.

My beginning students say all the time that the wind is doing weird things to their planes. So I have them put in some aileron trim and up elevator trim and go hands off. The plane starts turning, and doesn't stop. It doesn't turn more into or away from the wind or flip over. It just makes the turn, though not, of course, in a circle. Try it on a simulator some time: there, you can dial up a perfectly steady wind.

RE: High wind technique
 

My instructor told me the same thing about the plane not feeling the wind. To me, there is no doubt that the wind (and not just gusts) have an effect on the plane, otherwise we would not have this discussion about how best to land on crosswinds. Tail winds make a flight faster and a head wind the opposite. From what I see, the idea of feel could be explained by a boat going at one speed but its speed over water is different than the speed over ground if there is a current. Is that what you mean by "feel" the wind?
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RE: High wind technique
 

I am fully aware of what you are talking about. But to be honest it really has no bearing here in this thread. It does not matter what the plane "feels." That concept is much more intuitive in full scale flying but in RC it is not. We have to react to what the plane is doing and from our perspective on the ground the plane is going to weathervane into the wind to maintain a proper ground track. That is the purpose of crabbing in the first place. That is the only point I am trying to make here.

RE: High wind technique
 

Your on the right track. Wind is only an issue when you bring the ground into the mix. Ground track and speed are definitely affected but the air speed and control are not. Where people run into trouble is when they compensate for groundspeed, by changing airspeed, or ground track, by crossing the controls. On the ground where you have the wheels applying force then wind can cause the plane to weathervane or flip, but not in the air. Of course gusts and thermal activity are another matter.

RE: High wind technique
 

TruBlu02, I am sure you get it, but your choice of words can be misleading. The plane will not automatically weathervane due to wind. A better way to put it would be to say you compensate for the fact that the wind is carrying (not pushing as this implies a side load) your plane in a direction other than your heading, so you change your heading to compesate for this. This gives you the crab angle and can feel mostly automatic for an experienced pilot. For the newer pilots you need to understand that in this crab the "relative wind" or the "wind" that the airplane feels, is still directly off the nose if you are not applying rudder, yet you will still be crabbing.

RE: High wind technique
 

Yeah I guess my wording sucks. Weathervaning can be a misleading term. You are always going to have the wind off your nose in flight with the exception of transitioning to land. That is where things can get messy.

RE: High wind technique
 

Tru, looking at the whole post and ignoring that one word it was obvious you had it right. It's just too easy for a slight slip in wording to turn the posts ugly. I also agree that it is more intuitive with full scale. That is why it is so important to get a solid understanding of how wind affects flight, because it does affect it. The problems arise when the effect is misinterpreted, and too many model "instructors" don't fully understand it.

RE: High wind technique
 

Absolutely right. What's important for beginners to realize is that crabbing occurs because of what the pilot does with the controls while flying in the wind, not because of something the wind does to the plane or that the plane does "on its own." (Same for the other behaviors often attributed to wind, but those, like too sharp a turn causing an inadvertent roll, are mostly things the pilot doesn't really want to do, while crabbing is a good thing.)

To return to the OP's point (post 57), none of this says that the wind has "no effect" on a plane. A plane flying in a mass of moving air moves (relative to the ground) right along with that mass of air, so if you have a crosswind blowing straight at you when landing, the plane will be carried toward you, sideways, at the speed of the wind if you keep the nose pointed straight down the runway. The purpose of crabbing is to counteract this. But you, the pilot, have to make it crab.

RE: High wind technique
 

My goodness, a lot of you should not be teaching. At least Top Gunn knows what he is talking about. All those of you who are saying you hold on rudder in a crosswind or steer with it need to get some basic flying lessons, not be the teacher!
In flight, the "wind" will be on the nose of the plane, it is not from the side. If you want to fly along the runway or on any track over the ground, in a wind that is blowing across that track, you do not hold on rudder or try to weathervane into wind with the rudder. All you do is turn slightly into wind using the ailerons as normal in a turn. Then with all the controls at neutral the plane will fly along the desired track over the ground. The plane will feel the wind coming from its nose as usual. It is only you, standing on the ground and not moving with the wind, that thinks the plane is crabbing. Reduce power and descend, rudder and aileron still at neutral. Take that all the way down to the runway. Ideally use a touch of out of wind rudder just at touchdown to straighten the plane along the runway but for models it doesn't matter so much. That's how easy it is, none of this sideslip nonsense with dangerous and difficult crossed controls. Fly crosswind with ailerons and rudder at neutral. Turning is always done by banking the wing, and unless you have an old 3 channel model, always use ailerons to control bank. Aeroplane rudders are not like boat rudders, they are not used to steer, they are used to keep you straight.

RE: High wind technique
 

Well i think some of the confusion has come from the fact that we are addressing two different parts, the approach and landing. Yes on approach we do not steer with rudder. Other than the crab required for proper ground track, it is not any different than a regular aproach. It is when you get into the landing flare that you have to use the rudder to steer the nose over to centerline and the ailerons to maintain ground track over centerline and to land with the upwind wing low.

RE: High wind technique
 

Many contributors in this thread are not separating the approach from the touchdown. Here is a sample of some of the things said in this thread, which are very seriously in error and are plain wrong piloting. Planes do not fly this way, should not be piloted this way, and most definitely should not be taught to innocent beginners!

RE: High wind technique
 

Flying in a wind is exactly the same as flying in no wind - if the plane isn't travelling where you want it, make a conventional turn with aileron until it is travelling towards where you want it. It might not be pointing in the exactly the same direction as it is travelling but that's a ground based perception problem. So if the wind is across the runway and the plane is drifting off to one side of the runway, simply make a small conventional turn until the plane is travelling along the direction of the runway. Rudder simply doesn't come into it. No plane in flight will weathervane into wind, it is physically impossible. For a landing in a crosswind, full-size don't like the side loads on the tyres or the destabilising effect of front wheels on taildraggers, so just as it touches down add a bit of rudder away from the wind to yaw it to point along the runway. Don't do it too early or the plane drifts across the runway. For models it is less important. That's the only point in a crosswind landing that you need rudder.
H

RE: High wind technique
 

<font size="2">

Harrryc</p>

Following what you said, I use the sim and tried with 12 miles wind directly across the runway (no turbulence added intentionally). I noticed the plane acts eratically, dropping one wing or another and seems to do the crabbing by itself. I only use ailerons. I use 3 notches above the idle on the throttle. I am able to land but I noticed this way that the real challenge is the thottle. I have to add or reduce power and when I do a good job at the throttle, using only the ailerons I am able to do a decent landing. </p>

What I find incredible is that so many RC modelers who are probably very good at the craft can use different techniques and all succeed to land perfectly their own way. I have to say I am so thankful to all for their input. This place is such a great resource for beginners like me.

Thanks

Harry</p></font>

RE: High wind technique
 

While you are quick to discount everyone here as wrong even your method is flawed. You talk about using rudder only to align the nose when transitioning to land with no aileron input. You said if you do it early it will drift. That is the point of aileron in the flare to keep the drift from occuring. Models are subject to the same habits in a flare that full scale planes are. if you dont use ailerons to keep the upwind wing down you run the risk of the plane getting blown over or drifitng right off the runway in the flare.

I'll admit there has been some misleading info in this thread including some of my own. I have always used the term weathervane and I see now it is probably not the best way to describe a crab. it makes sense in my head and is very intuitive to me. To a beginner I can see where it would be a confusing and misleading term. To the OP If I confused you in any way with my terms then i apologize for that. My sim video shows everything I have been trying to describe (not very well apprently :D )

RE: High wind technique
 

Trublue,

Your sim video looks great but difficult to copy. At least for the moment.

Why do you think I have to use the throttle so much to avoid a bad landing, and most of you seem not to mention it at all?

Also, the upwind wing seems to be blown up all the time like gusts in the sim. I did not add turbulence, just 12 miles wind.  What is the easiest way for a beginner to deal with this wing problem? I can correct it at 10 feet, but close to ground it's usually too late. NO need to mention to you that at this time, I am still using ailerons :-)

Thanks,

RE: High wind technique
 

Harry,

When you have a strong crosswind it is in effect a headwind. A headwind will slow your ground track and also make reduce your power off glide distance. To counteract that effect you have to use more power to compensate for the "headwind." This is no different than using more throttle to control your descent whne you have wind right down the runway.

As for the wing being blown over it is not a wind gust that is doing that. When you use the rudder to bring track the nose around it also causes a rolling action. This is especially bad with a high wing trainer. Take the airplane up in the sim and use the rudder only to make a turn. What you will see is the tail move firstthen the out side wing will rise. To stop the turn use opposite rudder and the inside wing will com back up. This is how you fly a 3 channel aircraft on rudder. Now that is not the proper way to do a turn but is good for demonstrating why the ing will rise when straightening out in a cross wind.

Once the wing starts to rise the crosswind can get underneath it and compound the propblem. if you watch closely in my sim video you can see me use some opposite aileron right before I touch down. The reason I do that is to keep the wing from rising and flipping the plane over. This also keeps the plane from drifiting off the runway.

RE: High wind technique
 

After reading most of these posts, HarryC in my opinion has it right.

I practice using rudder only in normal flight with my sport planes. Practicing rudder only is not the most fun in the world, it's like being forced to practice the piano as a kid. I mention using the rudder because I don't use it on crosswind landings.

I love flying in the wind and I love crosswind landings. 20 MPH is my max. 20 MPH is a hefty smack in the face. On approach (unless my fingers do it subconsciously) in a crosswind I use ailerons only. The airplane crabs in. I DO NOT use rudder. I am conscious of using rudder right at touchdown and rolling out.

I've experimented using rudder on approach and I nearly crash every time.

RE: High wind technique
 

It's kind of fun to use crossed controls in a strong wind. We used to call this a "Chinese pass," though that may have been a slur. And slipping to lose altitude can be a useful skill. I once had a Cub that I flew at a small field, and it needed to slip to get down unless there was a strong headwind. But, apart from that, I agree: you can make a very decent crosswind landing without using rudder, and it's a lot easier to do it that way.

RE: High wind technique
 

My question is why is no one mentioning the use of aileron AND rudder in the landing flare? Using a crab is probably the best way to land an RC model in a crosswind but it is not the only method. There is also the method of using cross controls and a form of slipping to maintain centerline. That method is difficult to master in full scale flying and even more so with RC planes. But because it is diffacult does not mean it is wrong. I think the general concentious here is to use the crab method.

To clarify I do not advocate using rudder to maintain a crab. Small corrinated turns with ailerons will help establish crab andgle and ground track on final. Once in the flare the rudder comes into play to align the nose with the runway along with some opposite aileron to keep the wing from rising. If the wind is light it will take very little aileron but it is something to be contious of when landing.

RE: High wind technique
 

HarryC and Top Gunn, Those are YOUR opinions and it sounds like you guys are quoting directly from a full-scale book on approaches and landings. Much different with R/C. Im not saying your opinions are wrong, Im saying there are different ways to attack a cross-wind landing. And please read my posts thoroughly because when you say "ailerons are in reverse and rudder isnt, not in my book" then you are not reading the full post. I clearly state the rudder is also in reverse so read the whole post.

The reason the OP posted this is for MANY different opinions not just one. I fly totally different from others and vice versa. If we all did the same in flight there would be no reason for this website or its forums. Please dont be elitists and pretend there is only one way. It also depends on the aircraft you fly. There are different approaches and landings for different aircraft especially WARBIRDS!

Remember this is the BEGINNERS forum