Sorry but I need to add one more comment. Anyone who claims to know "Everything" about anything is quite simply lying. I would be a little bit careful about two things here, one about taking advice from professionals in a hobby shop who have a vested interest in what to sell you and two about anyone who knows everything there is to know - be very careful of such people. My point was that you should visit the local flying field and find somebody who will take the time out to actually teach you. Then follow that person's advice about everything.

You can usually count on hobby shop people to know more than the average guy about the products they themselves sell. Contrary to some of the threads you'll find on RCU, there really isn't a bad brand on the market today. MDS was a bad one, and the very first run of Evolutions had problems, but I'm not aware of anything currently made that has a bad reputation for reliability. 2 stroke glow engines have been made essentially the same way for a good 40 years now, so any design idea that won't work has already been eliminated. So then you're left with quality of manufacturing, parts support, and warranty. There is most definitely a difference between the $150 .40 size glow engine and the $79 one in all of those areas. But in the hands of a knowledgeable user, they will both power a trainer reliably.

The earlier MDS engines may have had some problems, but I purchased an NOS .46 Pro BB that so far seems to run fine, turns an 11x7 with authority. With today's engines, there's nothing wrong with the sport plain bearing ones, even though they produce a tad less power than the more expensive ball bearing ones. Most get into problems when they run the engines in a too lean of a condition, so lubrication is reduced and engine runs hot, or runs with excessive load from an oversized or overpitched prop. Older cross scavenge baffle piston engines more or less have a power band that peaks at a lower rpm, require larger diameter or larger pitched props over the Schneurles. Over time, a person learns what or what not to do with particular engines. Even that $79 engine can be very satifying, provided that it is the right size for a particular aircraft, is properly broke in and properly propped. :D

The MDS engines are junk, avoid them at all costs!

I would get an OS Max 46AX. It about $150 from Tower Hobbies and you can usually get a coupon to save you another $15 or so. I fly the same size plane with this engine and it's plenty of power. You don't need a 0.60 in this trainer, as it will be way over powered. The OS is easy to break in and once that is done, you won't have to touch the needle valve ever. It takes about a tank of fuel to break in and then just run it all little rich for a while and you're good to go. They are also extremely reliable power-plants. I have yet to have a dead stick landing with the 46AX and that is well worth the extra cost especially while training.

One man's junk is another's treasure. I knew what I was doing when I bought, and for me it runs fine. So, to each his own. :D

I know what I'm doing as well. My ran fine too until it the day it lost compression. I don't think you'll find many on RCU speaking kindly of the ol' MDS. There's a reason they aren't around anymore. The other reason I said to stay away from them is that he's a beginner and an MDS is not a good engine to start out on.

Sir, you already made your point. Good bye ....

MDS just had bad quality control from what I've seen. There are some Wednesday engines out there that run as well as anything else, and then there are some that never have and never will run reliably. I'd caution newbies to stay away from them too. An experienced hand can make a goofball engine run right most of the time, but a new pilot doesn't need the frustration and certainly doesn't need the deadsticks. An OS or Thunder Tiger engine is a good investment to get started right in the hobby without any problems.

Perhaps the greatest point has been missed. Number one, I initially stated:

The focus immediately became the MDS and not the rest of what I stated. A beginner could even have problems even with the so called premium engines, because 1) it could be slightly tighter IAW manufacturing tolerances, requiring a greater run in duration to wear in to optimal fit. 2) Ruined due to an overlean run. 3) Improper or less optimal tank placement, making fuel flow more critical. 4) Inadequate isolation causing tank vibration and foaming for fuel feed. 5) Length of fuel lines and routing. 6) Mixture settings. 7) and etc.

The best thing a beginning engine flier could do is to hook with a local RC club and get a mentor to help. Let that mentor help with engine selection, helping with the build, and even flying if lacking experience. The OP was familiar with cars but not with planes. This would be the best overall thing in having a successful RC experience to build on future flight experiences.;)

Does everyone believe that I would be able to get away with a .40-.50 size engine like the ones shown here?

http://www.nitroplanes.com/4050.html

I am sure you would have no trouble at all. I fly a 73 inch span J3 cub with a symmetrical wing on it and even at 8 lbs, the ASP 46 on a 3 blade prop has more than enough power. I fly off a rough strip too and no problems at all. I only use full power on long vertical up lines and during snap rolls. Have had two ASP 46 engines and both were as reliable as an OS.
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/atta...mentid=1940138

Duplicate post

No no and no not everyone!

It It is not the displacement (size) for your sixty size trainer that I have an issue with but your choice in the cheapest and likely most problematic engines avalible and you can be assured if any problems are likely it will be with these engines. Think about it zero quality control and no parts avilibilty Oh sure they may say they have parts but just try and see what happens.

Here is the best choice possible for a great experience with your sixty size trainer:

http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...&I=LXCRTR&P=RF


A second and entirely acceptable second choice is the TT Pro .61 that I and others have mentioned in this thread.

I never called either of these two Premium engines but by golly thats what they are and I get really frustrated watching new folks struggle with the well 'non premium engines' and giving up, never to be seen agine.

Only just one mans opinion'

John


.

I suppose that every engine brand has their very own fan club, but hey it's just like Ford versus Chev etc. I have owned several brands of engines including ASP that without any magic perform right out of the box as well as the high dollar engines like OS. The ASP 52 would be my choice and should serve you quite well in your trainer. With cash at a premium no need to buy a Benz when a Honda will do. Just my 0.02 cents.

In ABC sport engines ,you buy OS (and Saito 4 strokes) when you don't want to have to worry about them working right. I'd put Fox into that category too, although they aren't as popular as they once were. You buy Thunder Tiger because they are cheaper and almost as trouble free (that multi piece needle valve design can leak sometimes but is easy to fix). You buy ASP, Magnum, and a few other designs because they are cheaper still and usually work. Fandom of the various brands comes from what your values are. If you like cheap things and don't mind having to put a lot of time into one occasionally to get it to work, then you'll talk up the cheaper engines. If you're a fan of horsepower and reliability and don't care much about the price, then you'll talk up OS and a couple of others.

I'd still go with the OS Max 46 AX. It's $149.99 on the Tower Hobbies website and you can get a $20 off coupon. That would make it $129.99 which isn't too bad for this quality of engine.

Whatever brand you get in the end, don't go with a 60 size engine on this airplane. It will make it quite a bit heavier and it will be grossly over-powered. I have the same size trainer as this one with the 46AX and when training someone, I have to have it throttled back to about 40% throttle so it will fly slow enough for a beginner. At full throttle it will keep up with most all of the other faster airplanes. I don't even like to fly it at full power as you have to turn so often to stay in the pattern.

In the right hands the cheap engines probably run great, but for a beginner, they are not worth the trouble. I had the MDS on my first trainer and even had help from an instructor at the field when I was learning again and they couldn't get it to run right either. They recommended an OS and once I got one I never looked back. You just don't have to mess with them.

Just another alternative to the already mentioned options would be the Evolution .46. I picked one up some time back on a buy out from a guy going all electric. It sat around for a year before I decided to give it a try and I was very pleasantly surprised at the ease of starting, the reliability and the power it made. And I have seen them on both RCG and Ebay in the last two weeks for less than $50.00. Just another option if one became available to the OP.

I've heard that the Evolution engines are pretty beginner friendly as well, but I haven't owned one so I can't say for sure. That's good to know. This is off-topic, but the Evolution Radial engines are sure neat and priced a lot less than the competition. That would be something that I would like to look into if I ever start on a Ziroli B-25!

Plus, you will learn a lot in your journey:-)

Gerry

The current model Evolution engines have a decent reputation, but the first ones did not. I had one of the first ones that I got for free and I still felt cheated.

I've put several of these planes together for people and own two myself that I use to teach people.

They WILL fly with a .61 size two stroker, but you'll be wishing you had put something larger in... such as a .75.

The Magnum's will fly this plane just fine but go for a larger engine.


One thing you absolutely MUST do is to re-inforce the landing gear. The provided wire is abysmally weak and bends if you breath on it.

I doubled it up by soldering a second wire to the first and putting a bend at the root, 90 degrees to the provided wire mount. This gives it front to back torsional strength.
If you wish I can post pictures later.

I also replaced the front gear with a Fults strut.

These are changes you'll quickly wish you had made, far more so than selecting an OS engine or a four stroke.

The plane flies great though.

However the covering glue... well... it needs "help" or it will come off very quickly.

Before you put the canopy on, use a covering iron to firm up all of the covering and edges.
Apply thin CA at all of the covering edges, particularly those where the covering ends up on explosed wood.

Then put the plane together and apply a few light coats of Top Flite clear coat spray to seal the trim edges.

If you don't do that, glow fuel spilling out of the exhaust will cause the covering to come off within two or three flights!

You don't think that a .40-.50 will fly it? The smaller engine is way closer to my budget.

That size will fly it just fine. The OS 46 AX would be the best but the ASP or the OS LA series would be adequate as well.

Most models are grossly over powered. Watch a Cessna take off from a real airport and then watch the so called "trainers" at the model field. You'll see what I mean. Airplanes don't take off in a couple feet and go into a 70 degree climb.

Brian

You keep talking about budget and people keep sending you to O.S, Saito, TT and others. Why spend twice as much money when Magnum will do you just fine. As I mentioned, I have flown this airplane for year. It is abused, used as a glider launch platform and all of that with a Magnum 61 two stroke. Whoever says this airplane needs more power than that must have thrown a handful of rocks into theirs. Mine will go straight up until it is hardly visible. It will fly slow enough for training, and it is simply a ***** cat to fly. The only fault which was mentioned was the wire landing gear. Replace it with an aluminum gear and go fly. A Magnum 61 is available for $99 and the .46 is available for $79. They are no more difficult to tune and have no more problems than any other manufacturer. If budget is not a problem then buy whatever lights your fire. But having having been in this hobby longer than many members are old, I've owned just about everything on the planet. There is no need to spend money needlessly. Cheap or inexpensive does not mean "bad". Most of the problems with model airplane engines is inexperience. That is not the fault of the engine.

Actually, theguitar you may want to contact one of the officers of the nearest RC club to you. Explain what you want to do. There may be someone that has an engine in good condition for a song, or even possibly give you one free. Also, they could get someone in touch with you to look at what you have, and help you with engine selection and adjustments, check your build progress, may be even give you flight lessons, so your ARF will last longer with more satisfying flights. There's a network of modelers out there willing to help if you contact them.

Does this look like a good engine to buy?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Evolution-46...item19e53ae124

And please don't bid on it do I have a chance!!


Also, if this will power my trainer 60, how will a .46 engine fit in the front of it is built for a .61?

Will the .46 be too light? (weight distribution)

Thanks everyone!

Have to be careful about buying used ABC engines as well as iron piston with steel sleeves. Bought an OS .40FP from E-Bay, was good and a good price. Bought a K&B .20 Sportster from E-Bay, piston / cylinder sleeve was shot. Bought 2 Enya .15-III TV's from E-Bay, one piston / cylinder sleeve were shot, other marginal. I've had about a 2 out of 3 luck on used engines. Sometimes sellers will use weasel words to describe a bad engine, like, "turns smoothly" (i.e., no compression), "has compression" (but hides fact compression is very poor), etc. One extended lean run with overheating can ruin any engine.

Not saying not to go for it, but sometimes a bargain ends up costing more when you end up purchasing another engine for parts or purchase repair parts. Moral of the story: Buy new whenever possible, and used only from reputable sellers. If you befriend an RC club, might find someone selling an engine you can examine prior to purchasing.

Check your ARF's engine mount. Some come with adjustable. Others have various means of accommodating width including custom drilling & mounting of mount, check clearance. Then check required width of engine you intend to purchase. Depends on the engine, but differences between some .46's and .60's are close.

Regarding weight, I put a .46 ball bearing Schneurle engine in a used Great Planes .60 ARF, removed 6 ounces of lead weight in the tail. Replaced DuBro low bounce front tire with a lightweight, moved engine 1-1/4" toward rear of mount she now balances properly. It fit in the adjustable .60 mount. You may or may not have to add weight. I've heard that with similar planes like yours some have had to add a little nose weight, but You'll need to verify.

"Overpowered" is a very relative term.
Remember that full size A/C have a whole bunch of limits that do not apply to R/C models.
R/C models are usually built to withstand abuse that would turn a full size A/C into a ball of junk.
R/C models often have an engine that is sized to provide power for things that are impossible for the usual full size A/C.
Take off is one of the most dangerous flight modes for both. The shorter the run, and the faster altitude can be gained, the better.
(I still remember limping around the pattern in a Piper Comanche when one of the mags failed at about 500AGL after takeoff, with four souls on board.)
(Myself, the local FAA examiner, and a couple he had brought along.)

Naturally, there are scale enthusiasts out there that want to emulate full scale takeoffs as much as possible.
Each to his/her own, I say!

Guitar, that engine is the one that nearly sank Evolution before the company really even got started well. I had one, and it wouldn't run reliably no matter what I did to it. I know how to set up and tune engines, but that one was so unpredictable. There's a good reason it's only up to $30.
Seriously, get a Thunder Tiger or (better) an OS. The few extra dollars you'll spend will be more than made up for in the saved aggravation of an unreliable engine. The big benefit to the beginner to go ahead and get something good is twofold- first, if you have a problem, you'll have a reputable company to send it to for repair. Evolution has a good reputation for service too from what I hear, but that's only going to apply to their current models. That discontinued one in the Ebay ad won't get fixed for free. Second, you'll likely have an engine that runs right out of the box, which lets you learn the nuances of how an engine is supposed to run. There's nothing worse than trying to learn how to tune an engine and having it quit on your randomly. You'll never know if it's something you did or just a junky engine.

As for being overpowered, that's a good thing for a trainer. Newbie pilots often get cockeyed on the runway and will want to jerk it off the pavement as quickly as possible. Being a touch overpowered lets you do that. It also lets you cut through the wind better and power out of stalls when they happen. I truly appreciate the beauty and challenge of cruising around in a Cub at 2/5 throttle, just barely powering the plane enough to keep it in the sky, but that's not for a new pilot's first month of flying.

Why not shoot George in Texas a PM and see what he had in mind when he made you that very generous offer of an engine for your model before committing yourself to buying a secondhand engine of possibly questionable worth.

It doesn't matter what engine or what size you install in ANY airplane. The airplane must be balanced longitudinally and laterally to get it to fly nicely. If the airplane doesn't balance you add weight to the nose if it is tail heavy or to the tail if it is nose heavy. You can also move equipment inside the plane (battery position) to compensate if balance is just a little off. The manual for the airplane should tell you where the balance point is. If you don't have the manual, I can look up the info for you as well as provide the control surface deflections.

True. Balance is a very important aspect. Slightly nose heavy is okay, tail heavy is not. Regarding power, opinions abound. Planes such as Phil Kraft's infamous and timeless sport plane Das Ugly Stik used the mid 1960's engines of the day, which are not as powerful as our modern day Schneurles, particularly the ball bearing ones. Flight as a real plane versus a model, well, back then one didn't have the ultimate vertical performances of the day as we do today. But not every one is into vertical acceleration. And still, these planes do fly a tad bit faster in relative turns than a real airplane even with a slightly "smaller" motor, whether speaking of Reynolds numbers or wave theory, vertical performance included. :D