Second plane, first kit?
 

Hi all,

I have an Apprentice right now to learn on and also have been using the simulator, I've been able to take my apprentice out a bit and haven't had any issues and I will continue to fly it and improve my skills. So my question is, can I build a "real" plane for a second plane, not something that looks like a trainer? I would love to build a Cessna 195, Citabria, or Decathalon.. Something along those lines, they seem like they wouldn't be too bad to fly for a beginner.

The harder part is finding a kit, I don't want an ARF, I want to build it all the way. When I was younger my dad and I built an ARF plane, I think it was called an Easy 2. Any suggestions for a 2nd plane, first kit? :D

Thanks,
Quinn

A lot of the answer depends on your skill level, which we obviously can't asses. A Cessna could work well, but one won't be as forgiving as one of the classic second planes. An Ugly Stick or a 4 Star would be easier step up planes from the trainer that will let you learn aerobatics with no quirks to deal with.

Thanks for the reply, maybe I'll try the 4 Star, but wouldn't that handle differently being a low wing? I don't know how close the simulator is to a real plane, but I really like the Pete N Poke on there, seems like a great plane all around.

No,if your flying a trainer with ailerons,(high wing).,the 4 star is just as easy.Go to a flying field with an instructor.jeffo

The 4-Star is a great 2nd airplane. The Pete-N-Poke is pretty easy to fly also. But with both you'll learn to take off a tail-dragger. Not hard, but it takes practice.

Another vote for an Ugly Stick There is a short kit here http://www.eurekaaircraft.com/plan_kits/uglystick60.htm

Easy to build and a whole lot fun to fly.

Another great plane is the Goldberg Tiger . Either the 40 size or the 60 size . Both great flyers and easy builds . You have the choice of trycycle or taildrager too . They are low wingers ..

First, those are also high wing planes as is the Apprentice.

A good step would be a Avistar which is considered an advanced trainer. It has a semi symmetrical wing which allows more acrobatics. Although it is a ARF.

You say "kit" ? Are you talking about an ARF or a actual build.

An ARF is an assembly. A kit is usually referred to as a bunch of sticks in a box.

I'm talking a bunch of sticks in a box. I want to get into the realistic planes eventually, WW II planes, and others like I mentioned above like the Cessna 195 etc.

Quinn , you could always try a kit bash..

You are still a newb to building and we alll were at one time ;) ..but thats where you take a well known good flier like a 4 star, Tiger 2, or a high wing trainer and reshape the looks of the fuse to look like a different (scale) plane.

I have made 4 stars into ME 109,Spitfire,Typhoon ... its kind of fun to go that route...

I always thought a Tiger 2 might make a fun scale Bonanza or something..its a fun thing to try..

What about a Sig Cub, I have a Sig Clipped Wing Cub and it's delightful.

Good ideas, I wouldn't know how to even go about making one plane look like another. I like the Sig Cubs, would they be a good 2nd plane also?

That would depend on your current level of flying ability. If it's the classic second plane situation where you've just gotten good with your trainer and need something that will let you expand your aerobatics abilities, a Cub would be a poor choice. They are as quirky as a trainer and just as bad in the wind but in different ways. Cubs are a pleasure to fly once you have the skills and get used to them, but IMO they'll hold you back from developing as a pilot. The classic second planes mentioned above will do you a lot more good at this stage.

I think that you are on the right track. With a little imagination, and a few modifications, easy to fly sport models can become "scale models."

For the OP's skill level, Iwould suggest a Sig Kadet Senior. I modified mine into a tail dragger, added ailerons, and removed the dihedral. After that, I slapped on a Kadet Senior Sport cowl and covered the air frame in a "scale" motif.

I feel that this would be an excellent project for a novice builder and low time pilot.

I like Tom's idea... It almost looks like a Citabria, not like a pure classic trainer. Kadets fly great and have plenty of acrobatic capability to grow into.

Another option, but it will take more time is Top Flite's Cessna 182 Skylane Gold Edition kit. It would be a big step up in terms of build so you probably ought to go with something a bit less daughnting first. Besides its high wing, it has tricycle gear which is a bit easier for T/O and landings.

One other real nice kit is Bruce Tharpe's Flying King. It is a bit bigger than the Kadet Senior and designed for a larger engine. It is also a kit configured to include flaps. It could be modified just like Tom has done on his Kadet and you could dress up the cowl like Tom has so that it doesn't have the "unfinished" look in that area. Bruce's kits are terrific, build great and get nothing but raves from builders.

Lars

If you like WWI type planes, how about the Top Flite Elder? Not exactly scale but has the personna of a WWI plane http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...P?I=LXBSB8&P=8

So many choices now haha, makes a tough decision!

I do like the idea of the Sig Four Star. Sig kits are just generally good, especially for newbies. It looks like an airplane and will fly great. When I was looking for the "second" plane, I wanted to buy the Sig Kavalier http://www.sigmfg.com/IndexText/SIGRC39.html , but was steered toward the Avistar ARF. The Avistar having similar properties of the Kavalier. The Kavalier looking more "airplane" like. I wish I built one, but have enjoyed my Avistars. Sorry to muddle your choices. You have many. Pick one you like and have a good time.

When you build a kit you invest a fair amount of time so its important not to build something thats to far beyond your skill level and your club buddies should be able to give you some guidance there. A 1/4 Sig Cub is pretty easy to get flying with a little help at the begining but the 1/5 scale and smaller are a bit more difficult . If you have a computer radio you should have some mixes that you can use to help you cordinate your turns to start with but its a good idea to get used to using your rudder anyway . I have my Aileron - rudder mix on a switch so I can turn it on or off . As has already been suggested you can easily build an easy to fly sporty fun plane like the Tiger or the 4 star and kit bash it a bit to make it yours . I built a Tiger 60 tail drager and colured it like a Space Walker and every body thought it was a Space Walker at first . It dosent take much to change the personalaty of a plane. I put a Buzz Liteyear doll in my 1/4 Scale Taylor Craft and the Kids love it . The most important thing is that you are having fun . I built an Elder like Tom Suggests And it is easy to fly and very cool looking . It was not the easiest kit I have ever built ,the round nose turning into a square fuselage was a bit difficult and the little gussets on the open frame work was harder than I thought it would be but I got it done and it looks great and flys great .

I would DEFINITELY not recommend a scale mode for your first kit; unless you find a sport-scale Citabria or Decathon. The Cessna 195 has a dual tapered wing and will stall and snap on slow approach like a trainer won't. And for the most part not a second model to fly, either. Scale landing gear doesn't take abuse well. Second planes tend to be short lived (you think you have it all figured out and get cocky and . . . bam!)

My second kit when I got back into R/C after a LONG absence was a Top Flight Contender 60. If you have a mentor to trim it out and maiden or buddy you on a maiden it could be a good choice. It has rugged going for it. I still have mine and it has survived some hard knocks.

But it's not really a beginner kit. If you take your time in the nose carving and pick up covering techniques pretty quickly. The open turtle-deck and wing tips are fiddly to cover; but the kit instructions are very good.

I'd definitely say an Ugly Stik, (or Road Runner, Dog House, similar shoulder wing "stik" designs). But there just aren't any kits being offered.

Goldberg Tiger II or a Sig Four-Star look like about the best bets. I've never built either so I don't know how the kits are for instructions and completeness, but they should be very good based on the company reputations.

I like the Tiger which look somewhat like a Bonanza. It is a great builder and flier. However, I think an Uproar is a fantastic second plane. It flies very well slow for landings but is extremely aerobatic. It builds (and repairs) very fast - I built mine in 2 weeks. Just make sure to get a good pilot to do the maiden flight.

The Uproar looks very sporty and fun. But there are so many, how can you ever know what's a good 2nd plane and what isn't?

I don't think I'd recommend the Uproar as a "second" plane, just my opinion. But to answer your question, "how can you ever know what's a good 2nd plane and what isn't?", I'd have to say you have to do some soul searching of yourself and decide what you are up to do. I was worried about going from a SIG Kadet Senior to an Avistar. The transition went fine. You also have to decide just how much you are willing to tackle a full build like a kit. Some are easier than others. The Sig kits like the 4 stars are winners, because how good SIG supplies their kits with really good info on the build. One thing I've noticed, building a kit is going to require more work and ultimately more money. Taking on an ARF, you will save money. So the decisions you have to make are, do want to build from a kit and be willing to invest in time and more money than an ARF? If strictly a kit is what you want, what do you want to build? You have plenty of choices and many good ones have been described earlier.

Well at this point I may wait for a kit until I can do something more scale, or sporty. But I would think those style of kits might be harder to build vs some of the ones mentioned. But I've never done it, so I don't know. Maybe for my 3rd plane I could build a Great Planes Super Sportster or Ultra Sport.. or something similar.

Take a good look at the Sig kits, they are a real pleasure to build. I have not built a 4* yet, but built the Somethin Extra (GREAT plane!), Riser 100, and Astro Hog. For your purposes the Astro Hog may fit the bill, it does require a bit of sanding but the thing is built like a tank and frankly is one of the easiest planes I have flown, and a lot of fun (I built it with 1/2 the recommended dihedral and as a taildragger). I built up my core skills with this airplane, and even taught a rookie to land it on his first flight! Recommend a 60 2 stroke for it. I had relatively little building experience when I built the hog, but followed the instructions and it turned out really nice and true.

From what I have heard the 4* is a lot like the Ace Bingo, which itself was based on the Ace 4-60 which was another airplane I had the pleasure of flying. If that is the case, then the 4* must be an amazing plane.

There is a good reason Sig are still around, they are just fantastic. I have several of their kits stockpiled (and lust for some of their ARFs)!

Good luck with whatever your choice,

David

Build a kit that can perform some nice moves, I second the motion of the big stick in a kit form from great planes if you can find one.go with a 60 size, the bigger the plane the less twitchy they are.
Once you got your landings good with the prop still turning , then its time to take another step forward to a low wing.
Practice is what makes your flying better,i fly here at the AMA in Muncie ,its a 1200 acre flying site.
Rather you get your flying down above all.
But if you want to build a low wing airplane, then the tiger 60, or the 4*60,are great choices also,
In fact the 4*120 is my next build,
Stoner.

Another great 2nd aircraft and 1st kit in the Sig lineup is the Mid-Star, can be built as a trike or
tail dragger, easy build for a beginner, great flying stable aircraft.

Bill D

I had forgotten that Sig still do the Astro Hog. It would make an excellent second model and fist kit build. The Sig web site has very comprehensive building instructions in pdf format to download.Slightly harder build than an Ugly Stick but not a lot harder.

My suggestion would to stay away from anything with wing struts!

Sig Mid Star.

Why ?

Well, if realistic planes and WWII planes is what you want to go to eventually, the 60 size KAOS (I think Eureka still offers this kit) is a low wing pus sycat. It's a pattern trainer meaning it is designed to produce more of a pure response to your commands. It has a fully symmetrical foil and will allow you to fly inverted easily. This is a simple, straight forward step up from the top wing trainer type planes. Compared to any of the low wing trainer types being discussed, the KAOS is superior.

It's a simple build too.....Good luck with your choice.

The kaos is far advanced from a high wing trainer and I second that notion, however it is not a good second plane being a first low wing,

I got an idea. Take any trainer that should be easy to build and cover it completely with Olive Drab Flat MonoKote. Neat idea?

The Cessna 195, Citabria, and Decathalon are all high wing planes. Since you love to build go ahead and build one of those but to become more proficient at flying you'll eventually want to step up to a low-wing plane. For a low wing plane I would recommend the 4Star60. I prefer electric power but the 4* flies great with an OS .91 4-stroke. The 4Star60 can be bought as a kit or an ARF.

I've had my 4Star60 for 10 years and I still fly it as a warmup before flying other planes. I recently bought and assembled a SIG Somethin' Xtra. Reminds me of a 4Star40 with a wide chord and chopped off wing bays. Haven't flown it but I've heard it's docile as a trainer when flown on low rates or, it's crazy-acrobatic when flown on high rates.

My 4Star60 ARF had a 71 inch wingspan and so was kinda floaty at times. I chopped a couple of wing bays off mine a couple years ago to make it 64 inches and now it's more agile. If you buy the ARF version, which is called the 4Star 64 EG, the plane already has a wingspan of 64 inches.

The 4Star60 is the best thing since sliced bread imo.

Also, in the past when I wanted a new plane, I removed the covering off my 4Star60 and put a different color on it! It was yellow when I bought it, then olive drab, and currently orange with Normandy invasion stripes.
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/atta...mentid=2133605http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/atta...mentid=2133604http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/atta...mentid=2133609

That is a neat idea.

I applaud your desire to build, first and foremost. It will make your hobby immensely more gratifying.

All of the suggestions have been great so far. My 2nd airplane was the original Goldberg Sky tiger. So any of those designs I would recommend. The 4 stars of course.

First of all though, you need to get experience building a plane from a kit. As I get the impression that you may be a prospective scale modeler, which is really nice to see. But you need to learn techniques, and acquire tools and such specific to model airplanes. Many of the planes suggested are important because they are are engineered to be easily built. You want to be successful so you can build confidence for your future projects, which is your end goal. If you try to jump ahead of yourself, you will most likely get discouraged. So I think it would be more important to focus on a design that will be successfully built, than being easy to fly. Thankfully, you have a lot of options! My personal recommendation would be a Sig 4-Star.

All that being said, the best flying of all of these recommendations would be a Kaos. They are a phenomenal design, and until you fly one, it is difficult to explain how good they really are. A cousin of the Kaos is the Ultra Sport, which is still kitted by Great Planes, and It has a great reputation. So much so, the kit was out of production and brought back because of outcrys by the designs fans.

Regardless of which you choose, good luck!

have a look at the catalogs in my blog:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/member.php?u=241978

then go to http://outerzone.co.uk/search/result...&Submit=Search

i know these can appear to be hard, a goldberg falcon 56, or senior falcon, skylark, hobbico 60 trainer, goldberg skylane 62, or UCANDO 3D are excellent choices. GO FOR THE UCANDO! though it can be aerobatic, turn the controls down and with that big thick wing it floats and floats.

or look in the back of model aviation magazine for swap meets in your area and go buy buy buy!

Good suggestions, but given your enthusiasm for a scale high wing model, don't wait too long to do it! Yes, go ahead and build something like a Sig Four Star, but then get something like a Goldberg Cub. I find for myself that my pleasure in flying a plane depends a lot on how much I like the looks of the plane. It sounds like you have a similar tendency. Don't spend too long side tracked by sport models if it's not what gets you excited.

I'd suggest one of the models you mention, but I don't know a good kit for any of those right now. Sig makes a Citabria, but it has a reputation for being a builder's kit, so for starting out, I'd say get some success with something easier that still has an appeal for you.

Jim

The KAOS is a pus sycat both to build as a first kit and to fly as a second plane and first low winger. Some of the other taildragger models discussed are short coupled and will ground loop in an instant given the chance. Heck that's true of the high wing types as well.

The Kaos makes take offs and landings simple, Everything in between is simple too Don't let the title "Pattern Trainer" fool you. This is one excellent sport plane for any one who has had high wing trainer experience and is looking for something more.