bem

My Feedback: (1)

Hi,

To compare:
For the Giezendanner Technik "Marabu" ARF the electric motor they suggest is Leomotion L5025-700 directdrive inrunner (290 gram, 680 kv, 1200 watt/2400 watt max 15 sec) with 5 cell LiPo and12x8 prop. Leomotion has also outrunners.
Leomotion L5025-700 is more expensive compared to for example a Hacker or Scorpion equivalent outrunner motor.
Remember that Marabu back in 1969 and 1971 whenGiezendanner took 1st place at WC it had a Webra Blackhead 61 that was one of the better engines back then but not that powerful. So in a Marabu You probably do not need as powerful electric motor as a Curare might prefer (Prettner use Webra Speed 61 with pipe in his Curare that is a rather much more powerful engine compared to a Webra Blackhead 61 with muffler).

/Bo

JCINTEXAS

I saw Hanno and Wolfgang compete at the TOC in Las Vegas back around 1975-76. Hanno was flying his Curare and Matt flew his Super Arrow. These two were in a class by themselves. Prettner took first place, but I have always liked the looks of the Atlas/Arrow designs and I like the idea of keeping the engine and pipe on the centerline. I've never had either airplane, but am seriously considering getting one now. For those in here who are familiar with both planes, I would appreciate recommendations, opinions, comments on which plane I should get.
Best Regards
JC AMA 3042

pvogel

I'm vogel [dot] peter [at] gmail. I recall, an Edge or Extra right? I haven't built it yet, believe it or not :-) Got hooked on pattern and haven't done much else :-)

Yes, I fly at tomcats most of the time, down in Hollister occasionally.

I got the Splendor to be my "fly at lunchtime" plane over by Shoreline. The Curare will be controlled with my Jeti DC-16 which is my primary radio these days, I keep Spektrum stuff around for training purposes and to fly at work when I bike to work.

Finally, just so folk don't think I'm just being a fanboy, I was reminded yesterday of one issue I noticed on Sunday when I started on the Curare the CA hinges they supply are cheap, they split/delaminate very easily (a CA hinge is a 3 layer sandwich of cloth to wick the CA and a denser material in the center to provide strength) and some were already splitting before I even tried to use them. Minor, but annoying!

Peter+

bem

My Feedback: (1)

Curare:

Pros - One of the most successful classic pattern planes designed and flown by the most successful F3A and TOC competitor ofall time. Hanno Prettner flew it to 2nd place at WC 1975 withthe blue Curare and to 1st place1977 WC with his orange Curare. 1 st place TOC 1974 with Super Sicroly (the forrunner of Curare), 1st place TOC 1975 with his Curare, 1st place 1976 TOC again with Curare, 1st place 1977 and guess what -again with his Curare. He won more TOC with other planes.
To read about Curare history/versions You can read here (load the page into Goggle translator to translate from german to english): http://www.der-schweighofer.at/blog/?p=1723
I built from plans a Curare myself in 1977/1978 and I consider it one of the best flying classic pattern planes of 1970thera.
Since it is avaliable now as ARF in two color schemes, as glow or electric powered, and with electric retracts You can get into the air very quick. Perhaps little expensive when shipping is included to US but it is a high quality ARF (I have one).
Cons - It is perhaps not the most slek design (Norm Page Mach 1 is nr 1 regaring sleek designs in my opinion. I had such plane also).


Arrow:

Pros - Also a WC model that took 1st place at 1979 World Championship. Perhaps little more sleek and stylish then a Curare.
Cons - Not available as ARF so You eíther have to scratchbuild one from plans orshort kit with glass fuselage and foam wing+stab to get it ready faster (www.rcaiir.comsell that).
I have the MKArrow 60 kit and that was a common way to build an Arrow before when these kits was available from MK and sold all over the place. But You do not usually build an old MK kit today since they are so rare now but the partscan be used as templates when making all the copy of parts from fresh balsa/ply.
Atlas he flew to first place1975 WC.
If You prefer an Atlas plan or short kit:
Plan: http://www.myhobbystore.co.uk/produc...2/rc1283-atlas
Shirt kit (glass fuselage and foam wing+stab):www.rcaiir.com

Maybe if I was in Your shoes: get first the Curare ARF if You have the money and then get the plan or short kit for Arrow 60 (RCM&E planhttp://www.myhobbystore.co.uk/produc...3/rc1387-arrowor copy of MKArrow 60 plan) and build from scratch an Arrow ready for next season.

/Bo

bob mann

hi there ,Im and old pattern flyer from the 70-80 I flew the Curare in expert/masters it is the best plane I have ever flown , and I have flown most all of the great ones . p-6 p-7 D-B saturns, atlass, a-6 all of them . I still have one that I built in the mid 70's with a OS 61 fsr abc. mix control, pump, tuned piper, Rhom air retracks , radio Kraft sig. series and a mode 1 flyer of course.Bob Mann .

JCINTEXAS

Thank you Bob and Bem for the information and the advice. OK, I have decided to get the Curare ARF. Where can I get one? I also want to get the best retracts. Bob, I am also "an old pattern pilot" vintage 1970's. My best plane back then was a Vertigo 2 with a piped Rossi Blackhead 60 and Kraft-Hayes retracts. My radio was a Kraft 6-channel on 6 meters. My favorite plane these days in the Balsa Nova 120 with a DLE 20cc engine...and I fly the old AMA pattern maneuvers...just competing against myself...always trying for that "perfect" maneuver. Anyway, where can I get the Curare ARF?
Thanks again
JC

Yak13

My Feedback: (17)

Just my 2c. I have an Atlas with a Novarossi 75. INCREDIBLE pattern plane. I also have an Arrow 40 with a YS 45RE. Frankly, I would go for the Arrow, because of the enclosed pipe. It is faster too.

You can get the Arrow and Curare from Hobby Barn in Tuscon (FG fuse, balsa covered foam wing). The price for the Curare ARF just seems too high for me. Big temptation though!

Ed

Yak13

My Feedback: (17)

Mode 1 flyer too!!!

bem

My Feedback: (1)

Hi,
For the moment You have to order directly from Schweighofer but they ship internationally, it is just little more expensive to get it shipped overseas - in an earlier post it was said that it was around $125 for shipping to US.
Schweighofer has most of theirpages also in english so You should be able tocompletet an order online:
http://www.der-schweighofer.at/en/pr...orange_1640_mm
Under the tab Accessories You have for example the recommended electric retracts that fit out of the box.
Under tab Spare parts You have various partsYou can buy like extra canopy, cowl etc if needed.

If You have trouble to order or question regarding shipping cost just e-mail them at[email protected]

As for engine - Curare ARF is designed from factory to be able to use electric motor or a glow engine. In the Accessories tab they have one electric motor they recommend (LiPolice LPA-4025/12T-510KV with ESC,battery and propseize recommended also) or glow engine (OS MAX 55 AX with muffler, and also a header+pipe for this engine is what they recommend). It is very well prepared to use tested and working accessories as motor/engine, retracts etc You can see.
I suggest You have a look in the assembly instructions also that can be downloaded there. Bauanleitung = assembly instructions, Gebrauchsanweisung = user manual, Einstelltipps von Hanno Prettner = Setup suggestions from Hanno Prettner
Remember that this Curare ARF was developed and tested by Mr Hanno Prettner himself in cooperation with Schweighoferthat made the productionpossible and the ARF itself is made in China (of course...) at high quality. This Curare ARF is almost like a collectors item (at leastI'm sure it will be later on).

/Bo

JCINTEXAS

Hello Bem,
Thank you for this information about Schweighofer. This will save a lot of time. As I mentioned earlier, I was fortunate to see Hanno and Wolfgang fly in competition at the TOC in Las Vegas. I was a "Judge's Assistant" for 2 days, sitting beside one of the Judges and holding up the cards for the spectators to see the score for each maneuver. (Most of their score cards were 9's and 10's). It was a great experience to be up close and see the best R/C pilots in the world. It was humbling for me to realize that I would never be able to fly at that level of excellence, no matter how much I practiced. So after all these years, I am going to be able to experience owning and flying one of these wonderful airplanes. Thank you for your help...and Good Flying my Friend.
Best Regards
JC

I don't always fly R/C...but when I do, I fly FASST.

bem

My Feedback: (1)

JC,
That must really have been an experience to see Hanno Prettner and the other top flyers flying so close to You at TOC. Do You have any photos taken from the event?
It is amazing that Wolfgang Matt still is top 10 flyer in the world even today (he placed 10 last F3A World Championship) and I think he is around 64 years old today.
I saw a video of Hanno Prettner where he was interviewed about how often he flew and practiced the manuvers and he said he flew every day 1 month ahead of major competitions and he flew max 4-5 flights each time since to concentrate on more flights on one day did not give any training for him. Few flights but concentrate on these was his approach.
He was also a mode 1 flyer and he explainedin the video why he was mode 1 flyer. It is this video below. He also talk about his Supra Fly plane he flew at that time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoAs6w2Z0z0

about 1:57 min ->

/Bo

JCINTEXAS

Bem,
I took many pictures when I was there but haven't seen them in years and don't know where they are now. I do still have the jacket I wore back then, but it's way too small for me to wear now...(I guess it has shrunk a lot ha ha). We were able to talk with the contestants during breaks in the competition. I did speak with Wolfgang Matt about his Arrow. Hanno and Wolfgang were in a class of their own...clearly superior to the other contestants. It was the best R/C flying I have ever seen and a memorable experience. I look forward to getting and flying the Curare. I'm not sure which engine I will get for it. I really liked the Rossi Blackhead 60 back in the 70's. Perhaps I'll get a NovaRossi for this airplane.
Best Regards
JC

I don't always fly R/C...but when I do, I fly FASST. (12FGA)

Huang

My Feedback: (27)

Hi JC,
I've been flying both the Arrow 60 and Curare 40 so I can offer some thoughts. Both of mine were built from original MK kits. They are glow powered with retracts and tuned pipe, the Arrow has an OS 61VF and the Curare uses a YS-45. Both are excellent flying airplanes. They are not the same size but the flying characteristics are easy to compare.

Arrow:
The Arrow 60 is a very nimble airplane. If you check the specs the Arrow is a bit small for a .60 size of that era, Wolfgang wanted to keep it slightly smaller for less weight and more speed. First time I flew it I thought it felt like flying a 45 sized airplane instead of a 60. Its very easy to fly and you can easily push it around with plenty of power and speed for reserve. With the right CG there are slight elev coupling in knife edge both ways, but flaps have a ton of pitch coupling. Landings are slightly fast even with flaps. When I fly the Arrow back to back with my Phoenix 7 the Arrow feels one size smaller in the air. It is easier to fly through the manuvers, but harder to fly as well in my opinion because of the smaller, nimble feel.

An unique (non-flying) characteristic is how easy it is to maintain, especially for an glow engine with internal piped setup. The top deck comes off and exposes the entire engine/header/pipe which is on one long flat plate. The engine is mounted up right, with none of the inverted 2C issues to deal with, no need for a pump and has good cooling. The nose retract likewise sit on a flat plate and the cover comes off to let you full access. So the airplane is built like a box with separate pipe deck on top and retract deck on bottom - simple and genius design. Wolfgang took the Arrow to 3 WCs in 5 years) and I think he had close to 3,000 flights or so on one of his Arrows, and this design must have been the key to reliability. This is my favorite characteristic of the Arrow.

Curare:
The Curare 40 is also called the Minare, you might recall this is the one Hanno used at the TOC to perform the first ever "knife edge loop". What I absolutely love about it is that it flys so straight and true, just perfectly locked in with ease all the time. It has little to no coupling for knife edge both ways, and almost no pitch change with gear up/down. It requires zero differential for axial rolls. It is very smooth in flight, feels like flying a much larger aircraft, and has tremendous rudder authority for a plane of that era. The Minare has no flaps, but landings are a piece of cake, and can be done on the mains only keeping the nose gear high during rollout.

Of the two my preference is the Curare. Even though it is the smaller 40 size, it just flys fabulous. It is fast, smooth, neutral. Hanno did a great job with it and perfected the design to take out all of the unwanted coupling. He named it Curare, as in "cure", meaning to take out the unwanted flaws. It really flys like that.

Not to say the Arrow isn't great. Most pattern planes of the same era fly very similar, the difference is mostly in the setup (throws, rates, exp, CG). It's more like a feel than a marked difference.

If I were to build one now a major factor is how much time I have to build one, the Curare ARF will be very quick, the Arrow will be slower because have to do the painting/finishing. But the Arrow can be built and finished imaculate like the way it was done before, the Curare will be just that - a nice ARF. If going for the Arrow, I suggest you look at Don's kits from RCAiir, he not only does great glass work, but can have all of the wood - firewall, formers, pipe deck pre-cut and pre-installed for you. That saves a lot of time. He's RCU ID is "frequent flyer". Either way, I'm sure you will enjoy both and will bring you straight back to the '70s!

Matt

JCINTEXAS

Thank you for all this info Matt. Whenever possible, I try to learn from other pilot's experience. I have decided to get the Super Curare. I realize there is a controversy in SPA about whether this plane should be legal, but that doesn't affect my decision. Now I just need to decide which engine and which retracts to go with. Any suggestions would be very welcome.
Best Regards
JC

I don't always fly R/C...but when I do, I fly FASST. Fly well my friends.

Skylane

My Feedback: (3)

JC,

No controversy in SPA - the Super Curare has been ruled as legal by Mickey Walker who is in charge of such things.

Jeff

JCINTEXAS

Jeff,
Thanks for this info. OUTSTANDING!!!
Now I just need to decide which engine/pipe and retracts to get.
In the '70s I flew Kraft Radio, Rossi Blackheads, and Kraft retracts.
None of these are now available.
When I got back in the hobby 5 years ago, I decided to go with Futaba 2.4GHz. (And it has proven to be a good choice...great radios)
Now I'm flying DLE 20cc and 30cc engines.
I am hoping to get some good advice on engines and retracts.
Best Regards
JC

I don't always fly R/C...but when I do, I fly FASST. Fly well my friends.

doxilia

My Feedback: (3)

JC,

not to disagree with you (they are not currently made of course), but all three items can be purchased from the auction site - sometimes new. The Kraft 7C or Signature series radios can be converted to 2.4 with a simple RF module swap (your choice of technology provided the encoder is in good shape), Rossi SE engines are not hard to come by and I have also see more Kraft Multicon auctions than I have been interested in bidding on.

That said, probably both the Kraft radio and retracts are not the best choices today. A good Kraft radio with nice metal gimbals having the electronics swapped for MS2K and 2.4 RF is a beautiful thing though. The Multicons, although heavy, still have that very cool realistic retract speed. One day I'll do a build with these components for the full retro "look", and, to some extent, experience.

As an example, I just quickly pulled the following picture up from the auction site (330898973439). Series 75 7-channel.

Just a thought.

David

JCINTEXAS

Hi David,
Thanks for this information.
I am very satisfied with the performance of my Futaba radios. I've had the 6 channel 2.4, the 7C 2.4, and now I'm flying the 12FGA 2.4 They have all performed flawlessly over 5 years.
Now as for the Rossi Blackhead engines...I would love to get my hands on one or two of those...assuming they're in good running condition.
Please tell me where I might find these.
Best Regards
JC

I don't always fly R/C...but when I do, I fly FASST. Fly well my friends.

Huang

My Feedback: (27)

Great choice JC I think you will just love the Super Curare!

Curare takes a side mounted engine and does not require pump, so the choices are abundant. All of the older engines from back in the day - OS / YS / Enya / Rossi / Webra / OPS / Rossi / Super Tigre can all still be found on the auction site (eBuy) or on classifieds on RCU and RCG. The first decision is short or long stroke engine. The short stroke is the screaming high speed style pre-turnaround kind of flying (11x7 @15K rpm), the long strokes are quieter, bigger prop, lower rpm, and have good vertical pull (12x10 @11.5K rpm).

I like much more the short strokes for the planes from the '70s. I would go with a side exhaust YS-60FS, they are long out of production but if you watch the auction site they come up almost every other week.

If you go with a new production engine, the easiest is to get the OS 65AX with pipe, which puts out almost as much as much power as the YS-60. If you like the old Rossi, they are now called Axe Rossi and is exactly the same as the old Rossi. SG Models carry them in US. They had a combo with the 60 side exhaust with header + pipe for a very good price. http://shop.vendio.com/RossiEnginesUSA/home.html

NovaRossi and YS both have new rear exhaust 60s coming out, with the right header it can work, but you will have to carve out the firewall/sides a bit. The pipe will be on the fuse side instead of below, making it a lot easier at the field since the pipe always stay on. I personally prefer the looks of the pipe slung low though.

For the long stroke I would go with the YS-61R/AR, but it's hard to beat the old OS 61RF/RF-P. They are just so easy to use. All can still be found easily (there's a OS 61RF right now in the classifieds).

Sorry a bit off topic but this should apply to the Curare ARF if going glow!
Matt

JCINTEXAS

Matt,
You are a wealth of information. Thank you. I hope I can contact you again if I have more questions.
From what you have said about engines here, I'm thinking the OS 65AX is my best choice. If I ever need parts or service (hopefully not)...but if I do OS has the most available support. And, they are very good engines. I purchased my first OS engines in Hong Kong (Kowloon) in 1968. More recently, I ran a .46AX on a Tower Kaos 40. I have also put a lot of air miles on my MARK (MOKI) 1.35 on a Balsa Nova 120. Anyway, OS gives a lot of "bang for the buck" and is a good all-around choice. The .65AX won't break the sound barrier...but it will be plenty fast enough....especially for a 70 year old R/C pilot (me).
Thank you again for the advice Matt. Much appreciated.
Best Regards
JC

I don't always fly R/C...but when I do, I fly FASST. Fly well my friends.

80sPattern

JC,

I think the OS 65 is a good choice for you. Robert (Vertigo II) has one on his Vertigo II and it is rock solid. The old motor are great but the availability of parts with the OS sounds like a great choice for you.

As for retracts I am partial to mechanicals. I have MK's on both my Atlanta and my Conquest IVe. However, they are out of production and parts are scarce. I think you can still get Dave Brown mechanicals. Check the net. If you like Pnumatics (sp?) Spring-Air seem to be the way to go. You can get them brand new and parts are available. They air for "up" and spring for "down." Guys who fly them love them!!

Stay away from electric retracts. They just are not made for IC engines. The vibration destoys the nose gear and you will be unhappy.

Hope this all helps. It is great to see you excitement about our passion of Classic Pattern.

Doug

bem

My Feedback: (1)

Hi,

E-flite 60-120 seize electric nose gear has been proven to not be the best for glow engines so that is probably wise to still stay away from.
http://www.e-fliterc.com/Products/De...ProdID=EFLG430

But You have Giezendanner electric retracts that has been on the market for ages and I do not think there is any problem to use them on glow powered pattern planes.
http://www.giezendanner-technik.ch/s...ck8j5fr7dtpjr2

The new Robart electric retracts I do not know how good they will be in a glow powered plane, time will tell I suppose.
http://www.robart.com/store/retracts...mains/electric
http://www.robart.com/store/retracts.../nose/electric

/Bo

Karlheinz Gatschnig

Hello!

My name is Karl Heinz Gatschnig. I am the Purchasing Director at Modellsport Schweighofer and I developed together with Hanno Prettner the curare 60 ARF.

I would like to try to answer questions from you. My big problem but my English is very bad! So if you have any questions, I will with my colleague in the office they are trying to answer.

Important: All want to use a Glow engine.
Please do not use a larger motor than 55 Size (0S55AX). Our Curare 60 ARF is much lighter than the original, and the design is made ​​so that the focus can be achieved without adding weight. With a big engine is the CG-Point too far forward and you have to compensate this. OS65AX with the Curare 60 ARF weighs at least 300 grams at the end more than with the OS55AX

Our Curare 60 ARF fly with a 55 size engine better than the original with a 65 size motor or larger. Hanno is extremely happy with this engine

auggie622

My Feedback: (39)

Thank you for providing this information. I have but one simple question, the last few pictures shows the wing fairings wraped and part of the kit - what happen? I just received my kit several weeks ago and no fairings. Curious as to why you guys left these out.

Regards, Steven

Karlheinz Gatschnig