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Options for electric classic pattern planes

Old 05-22-2014, 05:55 PM
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dave_anderson
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Default Options for electric classic pattern planes

Hi fellas,

i have a really great flying field near my home, but it's residential and all I can fly are electrics. I'm a fairly experienced r/c pilot and have built several classic pattern ships for glow power. I really miss flying those classic birds and was wondering, which are good subjects for electric power?

Let's say 70's and early 80's ships (ballistic type).

If you've done one or know of someone who has had success with this, please let me know.

it would be even better if you knew the equipment used (motor, sec, battery, prop, etc...).

Thanks in advance.
Old 05-22-2014, 08:15 PM
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countilaw
 
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Dave,
Most any Classic or Vintage pattern plane can be adapted to electric power. There are several pattern pilots that compete in the local contest with electric power.

The biggest hurdle is getting to the batteries without having to take the wing off. As most pattern planes don't have hatches for battery access.

However, the Super Kaos can be built with a hatch where the fuel tank would have normally been located. Since you won't need a fuel tank, this makes a perfect place for the battery.

On June 28th, we will be having the 2nd Annual Golden Triangle Aerobatic Convention and you can get a first hand look at electric pattern planes. We are located in Grand Prairie, TX You can also compete with the rest of the guys. You don't have to be an Expert pilot to compete.

Frank
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Old 05-25-2014, 09:04 AM
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Hi Dave,

it it seems that we are both looking for something very similar. I live on a golf course and I'd love to have and electric, smallish classic pattern plane to practice with. I've been considering building up one of the scaled Tiporare's from doxilla. I'd probably build the .20 or .40 size.

James

Last edited by WontGrowUp; 05-25-2014 at 09:25 AM.
Old 05-25-2014, 09:49 AM
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dave_anderson
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Doxilla?
Old 05-25-2014, 11:27 AM
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Hi Dave,

Sorry, Doxilia is one of the guys who is very active in the Classic Pattern forum. He did some scaled down plans for the Tiporare. Check out the thread here: http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/clas...are-plans.html.

there are also several build threads for some of the different sizes. If you search for Tiporare, you'll find them. Also take a look at Eureka Aircraft's website. They have quite a few plans & kits for many of the classics.

James
Old 05-25-2014, 01:22 PM
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Here's how I worked battery access with a Phoenix 5.
Battery slid into an internal lite ply box and secured on the end with a velcro strip.
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Old 05-25-2014, 05:55 PM
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Dave,

thanks for your PM. I just dropped you a reply with some info and my email address.

James,

thanks for your kind reference. I thought I might add a little to what I told Dave in my PM...

For some time I've been interested in the smaller 25/32 size classics as well as the 40/50 size slightly smaller birds than the 60's which I like to think of as "classics on a budget" as they allow us to burn a little less fuel or save on one or two lipo cells.

Anyhow, I told Dave that I will be bringing two other 70's/80's designs to the table this year and both of them are practical models to build as electrics. In fact, when I redesigned them, I expressly considered their viability as both glow and electric powered models. Some of the Bridi classics I've done so far like the UFO 25 and the Dirty Birdy 40 as well as the Mach-1 40 (not a Bridi design) can be converted to electric power but to be honest, are better suited to glow power by design. Last year we embarked on a multinational multi-participant project to re-design Kato's (of MK fame) Super Chipmunk 120 which is a very nice 72" span semi-scale classic with F3A moments. The model was designed for 120 4-strokes and we started from the ground up with electric power in mind. It was rather involved and complex to bring it all together but with the excellent team involved, it came full circle and we produced some 15 of these kits which are now in the hands of various folks. I'm not sure how many have or are being built but when they do see the light, they should be very nice. But I digress.

If you are interested in building a 25 size Tipo per my reduced plans project, one of the kits I'll be bringing to the table will be exactly that. Foam core wing and stab and a laser cut interlocking fuse with a simplified vertical alignment and an optional removable canopy for either tank or lipo access. As an electric it would do very nicely on any of the EF1 motors on a 9x6 and 4 lipo cells. I actually have a 1200 Kv OS EF1 motor en route to me to see how well it will fit and work in the prototype. In short, the design is ready to go and just needs to wait for its rightful place in the production queue.

Incidentally, I built a smaller yet electric Tipo (40" span) per original plans and although I was happy with how it turned out, I also saw, in the process, how it's design could be made more contemporary, lighter and easier to build. The vertical requires a little care when building especially with the smaller scales (although they are all built the same way) but I didn't want to sacrifice the airfoiled blended design of it in favor of a simpler sheet fin as I find this aspect of the design integral to the classic Tipo lines. Likewise on the airfoiled stab. The frame up of the fuse and vertical are easier with the new design and the flying surfaces are to be covered with 1/32" skins as I did on the little 40" Picorare. While the Pico was gearless, the Nano (T25) is conceived for e-tracts which are perfect for e-power as well. Naturally, going with fixed gear is an easy option too.

The other model will be a slight variation on Don Coleman's Cutlass. Really, it just has a slightly different vertical more along the lines of Kristensen's Saturn which he designed with the Cutlass (among others) in mind. This will be a nice model to build as an electric too as it will have a large upper front removable deck which will provide access to both the battery and the radio compartment. The jet-like over sized front intake is also ideally suited to e-power from a cooling standpoint - no need for slotted spinners or other fuse mods for motor, ESC and lipo cooling. The same internal design elements will be practical and convenient to use whether one uses electric power or glow power with a 50/55 size engine up front. I'm expecting an all up dry weight of about 6.0 - 6.5 lbs for this one although the original size has been preserved.

So with that, I'll sign off.

David

Last edited by doxilia; 05-25-2014 at 06:02 PM.
Old 05-27-2014, 11:28 AM
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Hi David,

Thanks for the insight! I think I'm really leaning towards doing one of the Nanorare's, right now. Any idea on time frame for the kit? Maybe you need a third party "tester" to build up the first kit?

I believe I saw, in one of the build threads, where you were scaling the fuselage, slightly up from the wing, in order to accommodate the motor & radio gear. How did that work out?

I have all the scaled plans downloaded, but it'd be great if you could send over the different fuselage plans.

Thanks for all the help & insight. I'm sure you'll be sick of my questions once I get this build going....

James
Old 05-28-2014, 11:32 AM
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I have built and currently fly 3 different classic planes; Super Kaos, Phoenix 7 and EU1a. There is a thread here on the EU1a. I'm about to start on a Curare, an MK kit. The biggest challenge is finding room for the battery, and having enough battery to complete a full sequence, assuming you are looking to compete. The Kaos and Phoenix are on 5s 5000 mAh and the EU1 is 8s.

happy to answer any questions,

Dale
Old 05-28-2014, 12:23 PM
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Dale,

what motors are you running on those 5s models? How much input power are they producing on what props?

How's the EU-1A doing on 8s? Are you flying dual 4s5000 packs in her?

I think I can deal with the space issue. What I can't deal with yet, so to speak, is the weight issue. IMO, energy density is not quite fully there yet in order to re-produce the classic piped two stroke experience. Basically, if we could keep the weight of a 6s5000 pack as is but double its capacity, we'd be golden. I feel that we also need higher Kv in our classic motors with 650 Kv being at the lower end of the rating on 6s for a piped two stroke experience. The heli motors seem to address this problem but their integrity might still be in question given that we are not gear reducing them but rather using them in direct drive configuration on some somewhat thin shafts. That said, I haven't heard of too many folks breaking the heli shafts yet on 11-12" diameter classic props.

David
Old 05-28-2014, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Collins_0711 View Post
Hi David,

Thanks for the insight! I think I'm really leaning towards doing one of the Nanorare's, right now. Any idea on time frame for the kit? Maybe you need a third party "tester" to build up the first kit?

I believe I saw, in one of the build threads, where you were scaling the fuselage, slightly up from the wing, in order to accommodate the motor & radio gear. How did that work out?

I have all the scaled plans downloaded, but it'd be great if you could send over the different fuselage plans.

Thanks for all the help & insight. I'm sure you'll be sick of my questions once I get this build going....

James
Hi James,

time frame for the Nano is next in line, at least for a proto. At the moment I'm in the throws of putting some other kits together for shipping so I'm maxed out spare time wise.

That said, it should be doable to have one or two protos (for revision) done some time this summer (probably July). There is really one main aspect that I'd like to refine through the proto build which is the canopy area. There are several ways to skin the cat as it were and it would be nice to find a best way to do this especially for the electric version which will make regular use of the removable canopy.

The assymetric scaling of the fuse and flying surfaces is also something I'd like to explore so yes, the proto will have a slightly larger fuse than a 1:1 scale down would have. The wing could be made with a constant scaled down root chord but could have between 48" and 52" in span depending on how much the framed up model ends up weighing. The proto will have a 44.5" fuse with a 49" span 410 squares wing. This area could increase slightly (about 430 squares) by adding 3" to the span. That said, I'm pretty optimistic and feel the model will come in at a good weight but the 4s lipo capacity will be the biggest variable.

If you get your build going before the proto is ready, I'll be happy to offer any insight I may have to your build. Otherwise, I'd be grateful to have your thoughts on a proto build. Refinments and suggestions from a third party are always helpful.

David
Old 05-28-2014, 12:43 PM
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Dave (A),

just wondering if you received my PM and email replies?

David
Old 05-28-2014, 12:45 PM
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David, you hit the nail on the head, weight is the issue getting adequate flight times. I have no issue hitting realistic .60 size speeds with the right prop selection, but the power consumption goes up fast.

The 5s motor is a Scorpion 4020-8 with a KV of 790. On the light weight Kaos, I used a 12x6 prop and was pulling only around 50A, but the Kaos is not really a ballistic design. Same motor in the P7, which is an ARF and a little heavy, I used an 11x8 prop. It was plenty fast, faster that my buddiy's P7 on a piped 60 (albeit with a fresh battery) but flight times were much reduced, pulling up to 80A.

The EU1 has surprised a lot of skeptics now, with it's performance. I don't know the real speed, but the calculated pitch speed is 130 mph. It's the Scorpion 4025-10 with a KV of 525. I'm using an 12x8 for the best compromise of speed/thrust. For all out speed, I have tried an 11x10, which has a pitch speed of 150. With the 12x8 I'm pulling 80A static.

i just converted an old SL1 to electric. This plane is not in the ballistic category, but I wanted to test out a Neu motor that I have. It's 515KV 3000W and I used 8s. I'll be flying it with a non e APC 11x13, which should scream. If this works out, I am planning on this motor in another EU1.
Old 05-28-2014, 01:05 PM
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Oh, the 8s pack in the EU 1 is a 5000 8s Zippy Compact. One pack.
Old 05-28-2014, 01:16 PM
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Dale,

Great info - thanks!

I guess once one is primarily flying electrics setting oneself up for an 8s charger is not an issue. However, since so many of them are 6s chargers, I keep thinking in terms of packs which are fractions of 6s - either 2p3s or 2p4s rather than just considering a single 8s pack.

At 80A, the EU-1A must really move out. If only you could get 10 Ah in there instead of 5...

David
Old 05-28-2014, 01:35 PM
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There is room for 10s, but too much for this motor.
Old 05-29-2014, 02:03 PM
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This may help you. I converted my Conquest IV and did a build thread on it.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1436652

Doug
Old 06-09-2014, 12:47 PM
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I copied Doug's power set in a Calypso and it worked perfectly. A friend has a Calypso with a Hanno special in it, piped naturally. On the ground we turn the same RPMS with the same prop. ( Either a 12X11 or a 13X9). I've flown both and the flying experience is very similar, but I suspect the OS 61 unwinds a bit more in the air than the Hyperion 4024-10 on 6 cells. I don't have empirical evidence for that, but it seems so.

David's ( doxilia) reduced size plans for the Tiporare make a very nice flying plane in the .25 size. I built one using an OS 25 FX and a 9X6 prop, but I think it would be perfect for the electric set up mentioned by David above. I extended the wing a bit to 50inch span.
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Old 06-09-2014, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by immelman50 View Post
I copied Doug's power set in a Calypso and it worked perfectly. A friend has a Calypso with a Hanno special in it, piped naturally. On the ground we turn the same RPMS with the same prop. ( Either a 12X11 or a 13X9). I've flown both and the flying experience is very similar, but I suspect the OS 61 unwinds a bit more in the air than the Hyperion 4024-10 on 6 cells. I don't have empirical evidence for that, but it seems so.
Chuck,

it's good to hear that you are happy with your e-converted Calypso. I have a MT ARC kit put away with the plan to use electric power as well. I have a Scorpion just like Doug's but I think I'm going to keep it for a slightly larger model where I can spin a 13" more easily. For the Calypso, I'd like to turn a 12" prop max and will likely aim to use a higher Kv motor in the 650-700 Kv range also on 6s.

David's (doxilia) reduced size plans for the Tiporare make a very nice flying plane in the .25 size. I built one using an OS 25 FX and a 9X6 prop, but I think it would be perfect for the electric set up mentioned by David above. I extended the wing a bit to 50inch span.
Thanks for the T25 reference!

I received the OS EF1 1200 Kv motor the other day - it actually came straight from Japan... I had it drawn up on my plans and was happy to see that it is a 1:1 match and will fit very nicely in the model. Part of the problem (which I had on the 40" span Pico) with motors is the prop adapter which sometimes can be rather large and require a larger than desired opening in the nose ring making it a little unwieldy up front. The OS motor uses a collet type adapter which is quite narrow and grabs on to the motors shaft instead of being bolted on to the can. Scorpions used this system too until recently. In short, the can of the motor stays a fair bit behind the nose ring and backer making for a clean and non interfering setup.

I'm a little OD'd on drafting at the moment as I've prepared several models lately for the cutters. Summer is also coming but sometime in July or August I will get a proto of the T25 done and built up. I'm not certain which one will get done first (glow or electric) but I have two sets of wings, stabs and verticals waiting for their fuses to be completed.

Incidentally, I also sourced some E-Flite 15-25 retracts and they are perfect for the model. Just like the 10-15 units but with stronger 3.5 mm (a tad over 1/8") struts. I plan on using 1-3/4" wheels all around.

David
Old 06-19-2014, 02:15 AM
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The legendary Curare has been resurrected for electric power, I have one with 6S lipo and it's excellent.
http://www.der-schweighofer.at/en/pr...orange_1640_mm
Old 01-17-2015, 06:11 PM
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Would any of these planes be suitable?

http://www.eurekaaircraft.com/eac_kits/babykits.htm
Old 01-19-2015, 09:30 AM
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Yes, all of them! ;-)

note that they are quite small so power required is less than the 500 W or so of a modern 25 size two stroke. I think about 300 W of e-power is appropriate.

David

P.S., if you are interested in a slightly larger 25-32 size compact classic designed for e-power drop me a PM. I have a few options.

Last edited by doxilia; 01-19-2015 at 09:33 AM.
Old 01-27-2015, 09:55 AM
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Dale,

Did Dave Snow ever finish the new wing design for the E-power EU-1A with the battery in the wing? Getting ready to start mine, and I'm definitely going 10s.
Old 01-27-2015, 10:04 AM
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Dave has the winds and stab designed. We are going with a one piece wing, with the center of the wing left open for the battery to drop in. It will be through a hatch in this bottom, not going to cut the top like my current. The stab will be in 3 pieces, so it will be a plug in. we are also going with a Neu, direct drive in runner, on 10S. Frank, Jon and I are all building these.

Dale
Old 01-27-2015, 10:14 AM
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So I could use the fuse I have and just order wing and stabs from Dave then? I want in man!! Lemme know how much and how I can proceed and get in on this pleeeeease!!!!

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