How about some discussion about the Senior Pattern Association (SPA)?

The SPA concept is to limit equipment to a specific era - planes before Jan 1, 1976 - with no retracts or tuned pipes. The idea is to keep things simple and cheap. A few years ago, 4c engines up to .91 were allowed because we had noise issues at a couple of our regular sites. Since that time, the OS91 has become the dominant engine which has changed the way the planes perform a bit. Largely, they are slower than when originally flown, but vertical performance is better because of the larger props on the 91s.

SPA is in a position where it wants remain viable and flexible enough to grow with a pretty hard set of rules. This is not an easy thing to do. Any really significant alteration of the rules violates the original concept to the point it may no longer apply. Our position is not an easy one to maintain.

Let the fun begin. Who doesn't like what about the basic concept of SPA? If you make a suggestion, please be prepared to back it up with active participation. That means show up at an event (if geographically possible) and fly.

If someone doesn't like the plane/engine rules they could fly the lower level to compete. I can't remember if it is novice or beginner, but it is a good way to start. I like seeing the older planes fly, and the pattern rules are fun. The emphasis on basic equipment and not the latest, most expensive gear makes it more enjoyable.

In the Novice class, any AMA legal plane is allowed in Novice.

What I'm looking for in response to my post is to get a feel for what others, particularly non-SPA flyers, think of the concept. I'm not inviting a flame of SPA, just the thoughts of others.

For a long, long time, we've heard "I'd fly if you allowed . . . . ". Let's hear what it would take to broaden the appeal of classic pattern and increase participation. Over the past few years, we have gradually reduced the number of classes SPA flies. Would a set of Open classes where any plane was allowed attract more participation? Should those classes be open but restricted in some manner so we don't find Bootleggers and Tipos trying to compete with this year's 2m edition?

If tis classic pattern, allow the use of pipes and retracts. Fly them like they were flown then. Of course you could go the other way too, and restrict the use of computer radios. LOL

We'd ALL like to give our computer radios - NOT.

That what I'm talking about with Open classes in SPA. Fly them the way they were flown. Some will have an absolute coniption, but I'll try it at our October contest if there's enough interes. We got blown out in April and had to reschedule. We're after the Masters and the season is over, so we can try some new stuff without doing damage.

I still don't understand the rule about no rear exhaust engines or pipes, but then they let the 91 4 strokers in.

Ok Steve here's my 2 cents for whatever it's worth. I'll try to explain my idea of "why".

Currently in the AMA classes, argueably a plane older than 10 or so years is considered obsolete. Probably more like 3-5. Of course we all know a good pilot can take any plane and groove it and score well. But for the average mortal, we feel like we need a current design that matches the performance standard of the day. Take 2 dead equal pilots and give one a new Oxalys with a (running) DZ160, and give the other guy a 1st generation Typhoon or Vortex, or even a Jekyll....which one will probably 1/2 point the other one to death on presenation alone? So, it's easy to see why the older planes really don't work too well in current AMA or F3A pattern.

Now the SPA was founded by those who liked not only pre-turnaround pattern, but also liked the OLD designs and wanted simplicity. Read: inexpensive. So the date of pre-1/1/76 was chosen. And even though there were planes before that date specifically designed for retracts and a piped engine, they aren't allowed. (The planes are, but you can't build them per the plans). BUT what is the reasoning then for allowing a .91 4 stroke? That move alone seems hipocrytical at a glance.

So what we...meaning both the AMA and the SPA have created....is a gap of 25 years of beautiful planes and technology that are essentially useless for competition purposes. As we've all read, there IS interest in these planes. The problem is why on earth would you choose to invest your money and time in one unless you loved it so much you wanted to fly it as a sport plane? This is teh reason I haven't built my Curare yet, and (like an idiot) sold my Bridi UFO...which was Joe's personal plane over 20 years ago, autographed on the wing....simply because I have nowhere to play with it and justify it's existance vs risk of loss. (I'm a competetive spirit, sue me )

Now here's my main thought. AMA is not going to pick up a class like your proposed "open expert"...so if it's going to get done, SPA is going to have to do it. I think the SPA has a wonderful opportunity to expand a bit right here. How much is hard to say, because most of these guys in this forum don't actively compete, from what I can tell. But the question is really "would they" if they had a playground? I'd say yes to some extent. But keep in mind, some most of the planes that would be flown in that class haven't even been built yet. So I would imagine it would take more than one contest as a legitimate litmus test so to speak.

Personally, and only speaking for myself, I have a full plate this summer with a new design and a couple of frame ups, but if you have that class in October, I'll make it a point to be there with a scratch built Curare with a pipe and retracts, ready to rock and roll. I don't think it would take me that long to build a Curare from scratch, making the foam core templates would take the longest I'd guess. But I talked at length with Jamie Strong about this at Andersonville, and I seriously believe the idea will work. I'll back up my words; but be fair warned, they are discussing moving the AMA district championship to Ga. some time in October. If it happens to fall on the same weekend, ouch for both. In fact let me get with Emory and make sure he knows to try and avoid those dates for both of the contest's sakes.

Allright to everyone else, you have the opportunity to back up what you've been preaching for years....who's gonna come whip my tail at Cullman this October? [8D]

-Mike

PS Steve if I can get a new engine fitted into my AMA plane I'll be there in 2 weeks. I need to get motel and field info from you again, it's been a couple years and I'm getting old. Hehe.

Anytime something from the era is changed or elimated from the vintage type planes there is reason for discussion.
Pipes? well, they were propably on less than half the pattern planes in 1975, but were more common in 1975 in the higher classes, but were growing in popularairty very fast. Rear exhaust, was not even seen in that year, at least I never recall seeing one.
Why allow OS 91's ? Simple, noise! some fields, especially now of days are getting closer and closer to other popular hobbies and sporting events therefor causing noise liminations for fields to impose to keep the piece, particularly around golf courses and such. Don't get me wrong here, I love to here a screaming 2 strokes on a well tuned pipe, there just isn't anything like it, but some for some fields, like Knoxville for example, they couldn't meet the db restrictions imposded for that club. So with that being said, there would be folks that couldn't fly thier plane cause of that reason. I enjoy the simplicity of my OS 91 but fully understand where there is some disagreement with allowing the 91's in the competition. But power for power the 4 stroke 91 pulls like a well tuned piped 61 of the era with ease, and its simple to.
The 2 meter planes will spoil you rotton they fly so well, but, the old stuff still flies pretty good to, especally planes kept light, 7 lbs or so. Heck, I think my lightest plane of that era, my Currae, weighed in around 7 3/4 and that was good building for us, but now its eaiser to get them lighter than that with raido equimpent alone.
Radios, I probably the only idiot around still flying non computer radios. Mainly cause I'm a old Single sticker. My Optic 6 I play with with my sport planes has more features than my $1000 Kraft Single Stick Signature Series has, but it was a Cadilac in its day. I think my count is up to 14 or so SS's and loads of old equipment of that day.
Great forum started here, you guys keep it coming, and I welcome anyone, even Mike to come beat my old non computer radio,he he he.
Jamie

Mhester,

I can save you the time of cutting the foam cores, Dynamic Balsa still sells them.

http://www.dbalsa.com/

Steve,
I've got a Phoenix 9, built by Bob Godfrey, that I'd love to fly. It has a fixed conventional gear, and an OS .61 RF ABC-P with a pipe. It is well worn, but still flies well. Just no place to fly it! Of course it needs about 3 miles to slow down enough to land! Not sure I want to go up against Hester and Jamie though....


Jon Lowe

How about a Sportsman class, too? If we get enough interest, I'm open to experiment. I'd like to draw some guys who have not flown a contest for a while for these classes, too.

What I'll probably do is charge the regular entry fee for a single class and another $10 if a guy wants to fly his regular class and the Open Class. For those in your situation where you may or may not want to move up next year, it would also present the opportunity to fly the class without being stuck there. The great thing about a Fun Fly type event (which SPA contests are according to the AMA rule book) is that you can make it up as you go along.

There has also been some discussion about a round of unknown on Sunday morning that would count in the scores. We pull upwind and downwind maneuvers from a box on Saturday evening so that no one, including me would know the pattern before hand. That presents some special scoring problems, but I think they can be worked out.

From the SPA email forum:

2005 SPA contest Schedule

July 9-10 Cave Spring, GA - Bruce Underwood - CD

July 23-24 Hotlanta, GA - John Baxter - CD

August 27-28 Knoxville, TN - Dennis Hunt - CD

Sept. 17-18 Masters @ Auburn, AL-Rick Helmke - CD

Oct. 8 & 9 Cullman, AL - Steve Byrum - CD

The reason I got out of competition in the first place, was that to be competative above NOVICE class you HAD to have retracts, pipes etc. In the spirit of competition, to get more speed, only the highest priced engines, and equipment were competative. Personally, I love the current rules, (by the way I just joined, and have not yet competed). What the rules do is serve as an equalizer--the emphasis is placed on flying skill rather than equipment, and the quest to get a tech edge on the other guy.

On the other hand, I understand the desire to fly pattern the way it was flown later on--fast and huge--there is something "blood-pumping" about screaming across the sky in 5 seconds.

I hope if a pipes and retracts class is added, hopefully it will add to, and not REPLACE current SPA rules. Personally, I hope flyers who want to just have fun with simpler, more basic planes will not be left out in the cold. We may benefit from a "larger umbrella" but don't forget the basics, and convert competition to only those who are willing to invest additional money and time into the higher performance, and more expensive gear. As a thought, the new class events could could be held only at meets without noise problems as an additional event.

Steve,

It sounds like you are being very openminded about making this an enjoyable event. I haven't talked to the two guys at my club who were going to attend the first scheduled event, but I'm sure they will try and make it this time. I'll be interested in hearing how it goes.

Greetings All,
It seems that the fun part starts to take a backseat when "competetion" is added to the mix. SPA or other kinds. I fly IMAC and it's not unusual to see a 35% or larger plane in Basic even though the rules allow any plane (scale or not) in that class. It's just part of human nature. Even at fun flys I have seen planes "lawn darted" to win a minor prize sustaining much more damage to the equipment than even several prizes would be worth.

Fly a few of these classics and have fun.

EXCAP232

Personally, here is my thought. Since it has been mentioned that in the early-mid 70s the upper classes had pipes and retracts, I'd make this "evolution class" if you will, one class, like the old early 80s masters schedule, and allow planes up to 1985. You could work thru the current SPA classes to get to this class. This way the huge surplus of Tipos, UFOs and the like can be put back into service, and since it's only one upper class, it will not destroy the current SPA classes and rules, but bolster them, which I also like. But I think if the evolution class were allowed, contest attendance would boom. I'm planning on building a plane for next year, as Steve knows, but if there were an evolution class, I could fly my tipo this year, as many others in my situation could as well. If the date I arbitrarily picked "1985" isn't satisfactory, perhaps the limiting factor should be .61cu in motors. That way, those designs stopped evolving at a time when a 1985 piped and retracted plane can still compete. My last pattern contest was in 1991 maybe 2 I think. I flew a tipo. I flew against LA2s, Auroras, Desires, SL1s, etc. I remember feeling self conscious cause our family budget didn't allow for a new plane at the time, and we knew turnaround was coming so it didn't make sense. I had the only plane at the contest with an exposed pipe, and it seemed like everybody had plug in wings. I flew that tipo to third place that weekend. For what it's worth, you could get a regular SE .61, header and pipe, and trike retracts for the price of the .91 4cycles. From a sound standpoint, my piped Rossi is quieter than my Rossi on a performance specialties muffler, which would currently be legal under SPA rules. I think if .61cu in is part of the evolution class rules, It leaves a lot of designs open to use, leaves it in the hands of the flyer,and it's all about the flying skill, which is pretty much the mission statement of SPA. From my experience, patternships didn't get much better until they got bigger. Thanks for listening,
Eric

Good point Eric. There are still a lot of these type planes around, even hanging in shops as we speak just itching to get back to flying. I'll bring it up in our Jan. board meeting for the coming year. I'm all for the expanision of this type of pre turnaround as long as there's enough interest to spark another class. I'd like to see the current as is just expand a little as interest expands.
I like all pattern flying, but the pre turnaround is special cause its when I started my pattern flying.
But on the otherhand nothing fly's as well as the 2 meter stuff of today.
Room for it all,
Jamie Strong
CSP- SPA

Thoughtful responses from Eric and Jamie both. It was good meeting you at Cave Spring, hope "HOTlanta" went well.

Eric--You mentioned you have, (hopefully STILL have) a Daddy Rabbit. While all this is "hashed out" in the months to come, could you fly that plane in Knoxville?

One comment I remember from my talks with SPA leadership,---I think there are certain sites, (ie Knoxville), where noise problems have put the field in jeopardy in the past, and noise restriction are now in place. Next season, might it be possible to fly one or two "pre-turnaround class" TEST EVENTS of later planes at locations without noise restrictions as a TRIAL, both to judge interest and turnout for this type of flying, and to see how the different classes mix? A new set of rules criteria could be put in place for these trial events.

One other question for more experience SPA members. If a flyer currently has an otherwise SPA-legal plane, but the plane has retracts, would he be allowed to compete with retracts locked down?

Yep!, IF the retracts are down, or even using the pipe is perfecly legal in the novice class, just novice only.The rules state that ANY AMA legal plane can compete in the novice class. We have quiet a few folks begin with 2 meter and other 3-D type planes just to get into the SPA end of the sport. I know some have a little trouble with allowing 4 stroke 91's to fly SPA,but by 2006 I'll be totally electric, even with the SPA birds, just nice and clean. The power setup will be tested for pull by either Watt output or by a plain old fish scales as a crude method. The OS 91 output is very, very close to the outputs of my old Rossi's really humming at or around 16K, without all the DB's, eventhough sometimes I love to here those engines run, just not for a whole day long. But as I said eairler I love it all cause it's part of my beginning of pattern.
Jamie Strong
CSP-SPA

It's a good point to bring up about anything AMA-legal being allowed in Novice--if that were not the case, few pilots would go out and build SPA-legal planes just to "test the waters", (I saw your unfortunate accident with your not-so-vintage plane in the newsletter when you wee flying Novice), so personally I was aware of the rule.

But what about competing in Sportsman and up--if retracts are down, and the plane is otherwise legal? The tuned-pipe problem is easier to fix than the retracts for existing planes already built by potential newcomers.

Just leave the retracts down, and you set to go assuming your talking a SPA (pre 1975 designed) plane. SPA is really simple and the folks are some of the best guys you could ever ask to spend time around,eventhough the AMA crowd of folks are great to, they are, as a general rule just a little more serious for the most part, well, at least some are. Don't get me wrong I'm dead serious when the TX switch's on, but otherwise I'm totally kicked back, kinda like my old Basset Hound,he he he.
Its hard to say which one I like the best, there both a blast. If I could fit a IMAC plane in my VW Passat sedan (50 MPG), I'd fly some of that stuff also.
Just like all types of aerobatic flying. IMAC is on the way up and coming, just right now there contest are to spread out in distance and a little to complicatated for me. The contest I try to attend except for a few exceptions is 250 miles one way.
A friend of mine is putting together a Horizon Hobby Showtime that'll be my first good size Electric ship, then plan on changing all my planes over this fall to the EL. setups.
Jamie

I've also been a member of VR/CS for 2-3 years, but without being active, (the events were just too far away before). and just joined SPA as you know. I attended my first event in each group just this summer, and found great people in both organizations. VR/CS is a bit more "purist" about models being finished according to the "planform of the design", so my Taurus got a few raised eyebrown, but everyone was was very polite, and some even said they liked what I had done. The Taurus had its first flight at their meet in Raleigh, and made a real difference in the way the plane was set up and trimmed out. It may not have survived without their help.

In short, there are many reasons to join these organizations--competition is just one of them.

I should know not to type when I'm in a hurry.

I meant to say, that THEY, (ie people I met at the VR/CS meet--several different people), made a tremendous difference in the success of the control set-up. I've learned a lot from the experience of these flyers--who have been everything I could ask for when it comes to going out of their way to be helpful.

I'm glad to belong to both.

You need to stick you and El. setup and load your Taurus up with batteries. It flys like its light as a feather, and you need to get it to around 7 1/2 lbs, if its not already. Stick you a webra or a Rossi with a Performance specialities muffler/tuned exhast, and let it turn. Your planes a real winner, it just needs to run 100-110MPH instead of 80-90. Its fine as it is for novice, but you can really make it hunt with the right motor prop combo.
Jamie