I think if there was a class people would come. Why build one if you are not allowed to compete with it? It seems this topic is beat to death here, and passionate feelings on both sides. Since there is so much interest, I think if there was a "Ballistic" class, you would see more of those planes built, maybe re-kitted as well. There is no reason not to try for another class IMHO. One thing I am not 100% clear on is the noise of a piped .60. I am building an older pattern kit, and went old school with a Rossi .61 and pipe, Spring air 3-gear retreacts. (Have not runt he engine as of yet). Have you been to the field when the 3-D guys are flying a 33% Edge with a DA-500 or something like that up front? That is loud, and I can hear them at my house when they fly. Yes I am lucky enough to live 1 mile away from a paved runway field. Actually our club had a story on it an issue or so ago in the AMA magazine. Fox Valley Aero club.
So how loud is a piped .60 vs. a 1/3 scale monster?

my .02 , spend it how you like.

The issue may be a chicken or egg situation. There is no class, so no one builds the planes. There are no planes, so no one makes a class...

Hard to compare the big gassers and a small glow engine without a sound meter on the same day, same conditions. But the biggest thing to note is that the gassers are lower frequency sound and that is much less offensive to the human ear, regardless of actual sound level. But some of them are pretty loud, especially with big, low pitch props ripping it up while 3-D'ing. And some people just like to complain... Why they always live next airports, flying fields, freeways, etc. is beyond me.


Mark

If they were to make a new class, they should actually ADVERTISE it for a while. I mean, how many of us even knew that they tried having a new class in SPA? This is a bigger deal than most can imagine, the public won't just magically know these things and show up.

I know this isn't retract related, but does anyone have/make/made a list of approved motors? From .45-.61 2-strokes and .70-.91 4-strokes? I still have a Hanno and YS SE & RE .61's around here. But thinking of a .45 size motor if I can get the Trouble Maker light enough.

They are loud, but the muffled tuned pipes are probably quiter than the IMAC, but at a higher frequency. The prop is probably as loud as the engine with the muffled pipes. At most of the SPA sites I doubt noise is not a problem. It wasn't till recently at the Hotlanta meets in Paulding Co GA. Many are held in small towns in AL, GA, and TN. If you look at the SPA site I doubt there are more than 20 competitors at most meets. Maybe more will join and the meets will get bigger, and more of them.

From the [link=http://www.seniorpattern.com/rules.asp]SPA rule page.[/link].


3. Engines

a. Any side exhaust two cycle engine up to .61 cubic inches is legal
b. Four cycle engines up to .91 cubic inches with no air chamber or super charging or any kind are legal
c. A proper muffler must be used but tuned pipes are not legal.
d. Pumps may be used but no oversized carburetors can be used.

OK, I was confused. I know I had read that at one time, but then I remember reading a post about trying to find older motors and I guess I mixed them together. Thank you Sport.

How many of the fields are grass and how many are paved? I guess I can see where a tail dragger or fixed gear would make life much easier, but like I said before, some of us just never learn.

If I remember correctly, when the addition of a new pattern was made, it was tried for at least a year.

As I stated (or was that 'shouted') earlier I am a fan of retracts but NOT of pipes. Just chalk it up to personal preference.

How about a simplistic approach? Retracts allowed but scores have a "deduct" for retracts used.
I have no idea what the deduct should be ----- try 5% for openers.

I'm NOT trying to interject my thoughts as being above; more learned; or more experienced than anyone else's ------ BUT I flew trike retracts for years, on grass and pavement back then ----- never had a hang-up never had a failure. Like a lot of things after the first installation it's pretty easy.
Now (and I'll be surprised if there isn't some disagreement ----- that probably is an understatement ---- to this comment) ---- my experience is that retracts offered zip aerodynamically.
They DID offer a clean look which I liked. Going back to that time you could expect low scores if you flew fixed gear! Simply a statement of fact because there was no exception (Welcome to Pattern). You may not like that but that was the fact.

Now, back to the 'deduct idea' ----- what say you??

Certainly it offers no administrative hurdles, or even class hurdles. It can be superimposed on any class/level with a calculator or, if your old enough, a sheet of paper. Existing class participation is unaffected etc. numbers are not necessary as you are applying it to things as they presently are.
Don't jump on the 5% ------ it is simply a starting point ---- could be higher or lower----.

By the way Jason ---- Miles says 'Hello'.
And yes we still fly together ----- last Sunday as a matter of fact. At nearly 81 Miles is still a 'handful' in competition!!

P.S. I kicked the SPA around with Miles a few weeks before you started this thread ------ even though it is "a bit late in the day" for each of us he too could be talked into having a go at it.

I agree that the retracts tuned pipes can, and should, be discussed separately. One is not dependent on the other, those are just 2 things that always made pattern ships stand out to me. On the retract issue, I think that would be a simple change. It's not like retracts weren't around back then, they were just a lot more expensive than they are today. In fact I think I still (in fact I know I do) have a set of Southern R/C mechanical retracts (see Dave Brown) sitting in a no-longer used Escape in my attic. Those things weighed a ton compared to today's retracts, but they were, and still are, rock solid. I guess that's why pipes usually come into the discussion when talking about retracts, because those old birds wouldn't have gotten off the ground without the extra power. Now, to address the tuned pipe question. One of the previous posters commented that pipes make an engine loud because of the high rpm the engine is turning. Being that I still fly a .61-powered ship, I must take exception to that. My airplane may be louder than the newer 4-stroke powered ships, but it by no means exceeds the allowable db requirements. I am using a YS .61 AR with either a MACs or Hatori (can't remember which now) muffled tuned pipe system turning a 12x12 prop at just under 10,000 rpm. Granted, the older planes turned a much higher RPM, but they also turned a much smaller prop. By comparison, my dad's Compensator from back in the glory days ran a .61 Webra with a tuned pipe and a 10.5x7.5 wooden prop and mounted on wooden plywood rails extending out the front of the fuse. SO many technological changes have come around that make all of that equipment not only cheaper, but quieter. APC props, soft mounts, muffled tuned systems (the old ones didn't concern themselves with such things). Anyway, all this talk has me building again, and I hope one day what I build might be legal to compete with. I'm currently building a Gator Flea (the .40-sized Compensator), and my next nostalgia project will be a Bootlegger with retracts and a pipe.

mjfrederick, please post some pics of your Gator Flea. That's one I'd like to build.

I've got some pics posted on another thread here, just don't remember which one. If you do a search for the gator flea on here it will find it. It's slow-going right now because I just started back in the hobby and I don't have access to all my dad's tools anymore, so any time I run across a new step that I haven't faced before I have to go out and buy something else. I finally attached the stabs last night and began the process of building up and shaping the fillets around them. I'm at a stopping point now until I get time to pick up some hardware for it. This plane is gonna have fixed gear because the old trike set I mentioned in my previous post would be too heavy for it. Thinking about a Saito .52 for the power, haven't decided yet though because I have an Enya .45 CX that could go in it too if I can find a carburetor for it. I'll post more pictures once I've gotten a little farther in the process. If there's enough interest I'll start a build thread for it. One thing I will say rainedav, that wing was a beast to sheet... double-tapered with the sheeting wrapping around the leading edge instead of a balsa block leading edge. Do you have a kit for it or were you planning on scratch-building?

I was just taking a second look at those plans you have for the Gator Flea there... it shows a foam core horizontal stab... that's crazy, my kit has a built-up sheeted horizontal stab. I wonder which one is older... And I'm inclined to think my plans are because from what I remember my dad's Compensator also had a built-up sheeted stab. Not positive though... I can't wait to build the bootlegger now though, cuz it's a Steve Helms (of Futaba fame) design that was basically the same as the Compensator but had a glass fuse and was designed for a rear exhaust engine. In fact when I finally build it, it's going to have compensator wings because I don't have pre-cut cores for the bootlegger.

Matt, I just checked Dynamic Balsa and they have Bootlegger cores for $22.99. Click on Foam Wings, then Replacement Wings, then "B" at this web site:

http://www.dbalsa.com/

The MAN plans for the Compensator also shows a foam stab. Your kit manufacturer must have made the change, or the plans sent to the magazine were changed, I have no idea.

Sweet, thanks rainedav.

The retract's issue. I have been thinking of joining SPA. I have a Phoenix 6 to complete, and just acquired a Phoenix 8. It looks like we can still buy these old birds in kit form.
Checked out the SPA site, and reading the rules, "No retracts". What is this? We used retracts many years ago, allowed to use them in the lower classes also.

The cost factor? That does not make any sense. I live in south Florida. Going to a contest in TN, GA, and other states means one thing. I have to put fuel in my vehicle. I do not mind spending whatever it takes to get there. There will also be at least 2 nights in a motel, food and refreshments. It also takes me almost 5 hours just to get out of Florida.

A 1200 mile RT for me at 20 mpg, equates to over 60 gallon's of fuel for the buggy, X $3 gallon: Figure $200. Two nights in hotel: $150 ? Food, etc., for total trip: $80 ?
Now that is approaching $500.00 in expenses just to go to one contest., should get in 3 rounds on Saturday, 3 rounds on Sunday?

OK. I do not mind that at all. Part of the game. So, if we spend that kind of dough, who in the heck is going to worry about a set of $170 retracts being a cost factor? If I am going to put all up to date gear in my 35 year old pattern design, I want to fly it as I build it. Non retracts at the contest, sounds like a fun fly to me.

Vince
Hobe Sound, FL

AMEN!

I am not an SPA member, but do plan to join before the October Atlanta SPA contest. In the past I was a SIG President and have seen this same discussion in various forms before.

It goes something like this:

[ul][*] The SPA was set up for airplanes that flew up to XYZ date.[*] A lot of people have shown interest in what the SPA has done and are flying in their contests[*] I think the SPA should change to what I want it to be and promote my style of Pattern
[/ul]

Why should they do what you want, which is not what they want? In past incarnations the argument put forth was that it would cause the membership and participation to increase. In fact just the opposite happened.

If there is enough interest in having contests for retract equipped, piped engine 70s-80s pattern planes then holding a contest will prove it, because there will be a big turnout. Instead of asking SPA to change from their special interest to yours it makes more sense to promote and develop your event.

Best regards, Lou.

AMEN Lou!!

SPA members are basically happy with the rules as they are, and the organization has been around for 15 years now. I feel it is a good idea for newcomers who are considering joining and competing to accept the rules as they exist, rather than attempt to change the rules in advance to suit their particular style of flying. SPA will not change its rules due to outside pressure from non-members. If you were in an organization and were happy with the existing rules, (otherwise we would have changed them ourselves), and someone comes and tells you they will join if you do X.Y and Z, how would you feel?

We want growth, yes, but not at the cost of being required to change what works for us. We want you to try SPA on for size, (that's why you can compete in Novice with any legal AMA plane--you can try things out without needing a special SPA-legal plane), but if you can't enjoy yourself and compete unless the rules are amended, (the retracts and pipes are more important than competition itself), then you might be better off finding others with the same feelings. That's how SPA started--a group of pilots who wanted to compete under a certain set of rules.

I honestly wish you the best with a Ballistic Pattern Association concept. I might even go and watch, but that's not the kind of flying I personally want to do.

'Ballistic Pattern Association' is a great name and pretty catchy!

So, novice is for any AMA legal plane. So I assume that would include a 70's ship with a pipe and retracts? And the retracts of course would be allowed to be "retracted"? Hmm.

I'm certain this has been brought up and some point, but has anyone wanted to have a duel event where both SPA and AMA/FAI sequences (with their respective rules) would be flown? Pattern pilots are a small community. I think the bigger picture is that there are all kinds of folks who like many different styles, so why don't we all hang out from time to time and learn about the other one more? Flying the SPA "Class" at a modern pattern event would up the attendance and make it more fun. Oh.. this was supposed to be fun, right? It's all loops, rolls and spins... Just strung together in a different way.

Joe W.

It humorous to see that what ever the subject, where ever the location and regardless of how astract the concept, there are freakin' jerks that just love to sit in commitees, debating and eventually making rules that are just so stupid that they're.... well it's just bloody scary. The no retracts rule is just one of a trillion such ruling across the globe.
Come the revolution, those committee loving perv's will be first a gainst the wall. The world, i'll tell you, will do just fine without 'em!

bla bla.

Couldn't agree with you more!

Bla Bla and OneWasp,
I am not an SPA member, just an outsider looking in on this forum. I have built an SPA legal plane, not because of SPA but because I liked it.

It seems to me that the founders of SPA created an event, made rules to support it, then tried to get it established. They liked the planes that came before the Ballistic Pattern Ships.

I don't see that they have anything against Ballistic Pattern, nor do I see them holding anyone back. I also don't see them creating a new event for planes they weren't interested in in the first place. They weren't interested in the Ballistic Pattern Planes the first go round, and don't seem to be interested in them now.

BUT THE SPA IS NOT HOLDING THOSE FOLKS WHO WANT COMPETITION WITH BALLISTIC PATTERN SHIPS BACK, THEY AREN'T DOING ANYTHING. IF YOU WANT IT DEVELOP IT, GO FOR IT, DON'T BE SIDETRACKED NOR PUT YOUR FUTURE IN THE HANDS OF OTHERS. DO IT FOR YOURSELF, instead of asking someone else to do it for you.

People who want Ballistic Pattern need to find like minded individuals, come up with a working set of rules, and hold contests. Don't wait for someone to do what you want for you.

I think the bottom line is that the SPA founders came up with an idea and acted on it. Successfully, I might add. How can anyone possibly criticize people for pursuing their interests? Sorry, but as much as I'm personally waiting and hoping for a revolution, it's more burdensome to have people in the wings putting everything down that they don't approve of.

Now, if the SPA can do it, or SAM, or VR/CS, or the vintage C/L folks can, then those who want an organization centered around the ballistic designs should be able to do it, too. The only drawback I see is that annual dues can start to add up. AMA, SAM, NFFS, VRCS SPA, before you know it your wallet is full of membership cards and you're spending enough to buy a new radio every year.[] Oh, well, no one said it was a cheap hobby.

Just for the record, I'm not bashing anything... Jason started this just wanting to know why retracts weren't allowed. Simple question. Sensitive answers...

Most of the SPA airplanes were the "ballistic designs" with retracts no less. Take a look at the list: Phoenix 1-8, Dirty Birdy, Deception, A-6 Intruder, Curare, UFO, Mach 1...Hence all the interest in the SPA from folks like myself who started with a dirty birdy powered by a muffled enya (no pipe...) Guess what, it was loud.

The things that make people like myself ask questions about the history of the rules are because even though the SPA flies some of these older designs, they have been modified to be more like the airplanes we are flying today. Tail dragging, fixed gear, 4-strok'n & big APC props to slow them down and emulate the current style. Many of the original versions of these planes were tricycle, 2-stroke planes.

Most everyone agrees that the SPA is a wonderful thing, myself included. Though it's been stated many times that people like me don't show up to SPA contests. This is true. Not because I don't like the rules, but because I have to dedicate myself to conjuring up a plane that fits in the those rules rather than one I already have. To say that these are inexpensive is a bit misleading. Sure, the box of wood or foam cores are very reasonable, but sit down and add up everything. Not far off from the current generation of planes given the level of prefabrication most newer kits offer.

Now, even with all that, I'm going to do my best to get an SPA legal bird and come try the fine out for myself. Rest assured, mine will have retracts, will be a tricycle gear and will most likely be a 2-stroke, but I'll keep my finger off the switch until some sort of rule modification allows me to use it.

And yes, I was interested to see that no one commented on my suggestion at holding a dual meet. Maybe because all the RCU discussions would turn into a brawl with little bits of balsa slung all over the SE US?

Joe W.