Joe W,
Your idea of a dual meet is good, and would make an excellent starting point to examine interest levels. Probably the reason folks didn't chime in is that someone would have to organize the dual part of the meet, and if they chimed in they might be tapped to do it. It is far easier to talk the talk than walk the walk.

I have noticed, after reading the forums for a few years, that a lot of folks have good ideas for others folks to do. People will suggest a new idea, and ask that it be done. Well, the hard truth is that the person with the idea, if he really wants it done, is the person who has to drive it. Sometimes it is funny to see the reaction of a person who came up with a "great idea". He often expects people to jump on the bandwagon and organize it for him.

Maybe we need less builders, designers, and fliers and instead more folks with good ideas, and other folks to implement them!!!! LOL. There are proven paralells for that in the real world, we call them Congress and Bureaucracy.

Maybe, but in this case, since the SPA were minding their own businesss, then WHO is the jerk?

Go to an event. These are not popular planes. I think they went as far as 1976 just to be more accomadating. Maybe they should change it to stop at 1972 instead of 76, now that you can get Daddy Rabbit and Chaos kits.

When that does happen, it often ends up as something other than the original "good idea".

Boy, if these planes aren't popular, you guys sura had me fooled.

From what I can gather from the Classic Pattern forums, the Mach 1 has to be the most popular design of all, and it's supposed to be SPA legal. But if you say that this design is not popular in SPA contests, who I'm I to argue? Maybe all the fans have been busy building Mach 1's for SPA (you know, with .91 four-cycles, tail dragging gear, etc.) and they'll start appearing next year.

I recently saw 4 pic's on another thread. They were clearly from one of the SPA contests. The four planes pictured were a Compensator, what appeared to be a Phantom I, and two separate Intruders (i.e. not the same plane). These were all designs associated with the start of the "ballistic" era. Go figure!

Oh! And by the way. I believe that the Deception and the Phoenix 8, both of which appear in the SPA list of allowed planes, were designed and flown AFTER January 1, 1976.

I was going to Pattern contests as early as 1970 and just about every plane at the time had retracts. To me the no retracts rule is kind of silly. Retracts were no more complicated or difficult to install or use than they are today. At the time the most trouble free Retracts were the Kraft Retracts they had there own servo motors built into the retract Mechanism and operated off the 5th or 6th channel. The Retract Switch on the transmitter did not become real popular until about 1972 as I recall

Pipes would be another issue at that time 1970 pipes were not used, mufflers were required however also at the time the most popular engines were the Webra Blackhead and the Enya 60, OS had a 60 too but the only person that I knew who used one was Don Lowe in his Phoenix 5 and oh he had retracts in that airplane too. :-)

As far as the idea that Retracts made the airplane go faster that was not the reason pattern fliers used them. The main reason for cleaner airflows and it looked Cool, with the emphasis on cool. If you wanted a fast airplane keep the weight down. One of the problems I remember from that era was one of our club members had built a fiberglass Banshee with a Webra 61 and Rom Air retracts this combo tipped the scales at almost 9.5 lbs and did not fly any faster than a plain ole vanilla Kaos without retracts in fact the plain ole vanilla Kaos that I remember that used to show up at our club field ( it really was Red ) was one of the faster airplanes at the club field. Its secret to speed was it weighed less around 5.5 lbs

I'm building my 1972 era Dirty Birdie as a tail dragger and with Retracts and a pumped OS 91 4 stroke.

My last comment I must mention one of the coolest pattern planes from that era this would have been August of 1973 one of our club members had built a Mach 1 with RETRACTS and it had I believe a HP 61 with NO PIPE! :-) but it did have a muffler

DLB

If you have never been to a SPA event, just how would you know?

I think that one is in the wrong catagory. I think that came out on 72 or so and I never saw a Mach I with a pipe. I think they were relagated to the sports catagory by the time tuned pipes were being used.

If so then they were converting a lot of non retract kits. The Super Kaos was modified in part to include retracts. I think it came out in 72.

Well like I said before, it looks like a lot of fun flying the older sequences, so I'll muster up one of the old birds and come play! Then I can have a conversation in person with some folks and start planning a dual meet.

Now, which plane shall it be... hmmm

Joe W.

A Kaos or Ultra Sport would probably do fine. I am assuming you would fly novice, if not then I do not think the Ultra Sport is legal.

An Ultra Sport? I guess I thought that was a much newer design. I'll have to check out the list again. I'm still partial to the Phoenix 8, Curare, etc. But after looking at that Blue Angle thread - wow that one has my attention too!

Joe W.

I think that one is in the wrong catagory. I think that came out on 72 or so and I never saw a Mach I with a pipe. I think they were relagated to the sports catagory by the time tuned pipes were being used.
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I have the Mach 1 article, (June 1973). The plane came out sometime about 1971, and had a aftermarket muffler and retracts. I think the Mach 1 has beautiful lines, but have never seen one fly in SPA. The most successful SPA planes have generous size wing areas to lower the wing loading with the 4-strokes--this explains the popularity of the Daddy Rabbits

So, I take it scaling is not legal in SPA? Now that would open the door to a lot of different designs being built, I'd bet. Any design from the era could be enlarged to suit the .60s and .91s of today. IMO, scaling does not change the character of a design too much as long as the proportions are kept original. But, I guess it would simply be too time consuming to evaluate scaled planes to determine if the proportions were accurate. What would be the ideal span/area of a Kaos scaled to match a .91 4-stroke?

I suspect a Jett .61 with tuned muffler would be almost as fast as the older tuned pipe equiped planes without scaling.

Correct--scaling is not allowed. The thinking behind this has to do with what is called the "Duck Rule" which says "...if it looks like a duck, it's a duck..."

Yes, if a Kaos was scaled up, it would still look like a Kaos--but a REALLY BIG Kaos. Everyone knows what a Kaos is supposed to look like, how big it's supposed to be etc. If someone showed up with a huge Kaos it would stick out like a sore thumb. Many SPA planes have small mods compared to the original to help them fly the current SPA pattern, (somewhat different than the one in effect in the 60s when the Kaos was state of the art), better, and better accept the heavier 4-stroke engines. Fuses are lengthened slightly for balance purposes, strip ailerons may be replaced by barn-door, maybe the rudder hinge line may be made to be vertical for Knife-edge flight etc., but the general look and size of the original is preserved. A 2-meter size Kaos would not fly like the real thing--and wouldn't pass the "Duck Rule".

Thanks, Duane. Man, I'm sorry I didn't get to the mountains last weekend! I wasn't so much thinking about a 2-M Kaos, but maybe a 66" one built really light.

Rainedav(my mind wants to say rainedaY)---I didn't mean to imply you wanted a 2-meter Kaos---that was just an example of what someone might want to do. Actually there HAVE been folks in the past who actually would like to do that---I'm sure the plane would fly great, but it wouldn't be like the original.

About the Asheville SPA meet--we had nice a get-together at the house the night before that was a lot of fun, and a great time at the contest once the fog burned off---at 11AM!!! I think our field must have been the LAST place in the county for the fog to lift.

Well maybe next year, (assuming we do it again).
Duane

Isn't your field right on the French Broad? Or am I thinking of another Asheville site (maybe Leicester)? That can be a very foggy area.

Right on the French Broad--actually a couple hundred feet above it. Nice view, but prone to fog, wind, and the sun in your face in the afternoon We managed four rounds anyway, but people might have been seing "spots" in their eyes all the way home.

A quick reply to Yeager, the Deception was in fact first flown in November 1975, per a letter that I have from the designer, Jim Kimbro. As such, I was responsible for getting it on the approved list. I can't talk to the Phoenix 8, you'll have to ask Don.

Rich

Deception pilot
TeamVortex

Actually, I did talk to Don Lowe about when he designed the P-8.. He knew it was sometime in the mid 70's but couldn't recall the exact year...

Joe W.