NM2K

My Feedback: (14)

What would it take to resurrect the Antique Class in SPA? Yeah, I know, participants. <G>

Lots of folks appear to be interested in this class, but there appears to be an underlying problem that we are not addressing.

Is the all inclusive spread in years for acceptable models preventing folks from flying the non competitive, but truly classic, models because they stand no chance of winning? Should winning really be a priority anyway?

How about if we limited, or, ahem, encouraged, folks to settle on two or three models that are roughly equal in competitive abilities. Just off of the top of my head, let's say the Sr. Falcon, Astro Hog and Taurus/Orion? These are just quickly picked models.

Then, perhaps, we could have other kinds of flying events (scored or unscored) for truly old and primitive one time competition aerobatic models? Maybe judge them on landing successfully. That would have been an accomplishment in the old days, with radios such as they were.

Please feel free to go with this thought and take it wherever you want. I am convinced that there are many folks hiding in the woodwork that would find such get togethers very enjoyable. I would.

8178

My Feedback: (17)

There are some great aircraft on that list like the CANDY, CRUSADER (got plans), KWIK FLY I & II, PATRICIA and I like the non-Schnuerle ported engines, e.g. like the Webra Blackhead. It wouldn’t be too hard to convert my Home Hobby Solutions Kwik Fli III kit to an II either.

rainedave

My Feedback: (1)

I have been itching to build a Crusader. I even re-arranged the plans onto one sheet and mirrored the stab halves.

8178

My Feedback: (17)

It would be fun to fly it with a Fox 59 and no muffler like Ralph did!!! It sounded awesome!

Sport_Pilot

Part of the problem is the lack of old baffle ported engines. I think they allow .70 sized four strokes, but maybe they should allow 50 sized modern two strokes as well? It would halp if ther was a quick and easy kit or ARF to get more people intrested. May be good for novice class as well.

Do they have to fly the same pattern? In control line the Old Time Stunt models fly a pattern similar to what they were flying in the 40's.

NM2K

My Feedback: (14)

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I have been buying HB engines off folks on eBay. Some straight and some with PDP. There doesn't appear to be a shortage of used HB engines. Then there is always the venerable K&B .61 baffle piston engine. I gave up looking on the RJL/Mecoa site to see if any were available new for sale. I should check.

I would like to see the limit on four-strokes raised to .82. Or at least .74. That would permit folks to fly a Saito engine, although the Saito .56 and .65 are fairly strong contenders. While I am an OS and Magnum fan, it would be nice if I could use my old Enya 80-4C, which, if you do the math, is really a .74.

I also see quite a few old Webra .61 baffle piston engines on eBay. Few Blackheads though. Or at least not collector quality Blackheads. I don't know of the differences betwen the early Blackhead versions and the later plain head baffle piston .61s Webra sold in the early Nineties.

It is difficult to believe that the Taurus was shown with a plain bearing .45 on the plans, IIRC.

Don't mind me. My mind is wandering all over the place again. <G>

Sport_Pilot

That's why I mentioned the pattern. If it is very basic then you may not need much engine.

s. wallace

My Feedback: (24)

VRCS Class III Pattern is roughly (not exactly) equivalent to SPA Antique...there is just isn't that much interest. The VRCS events themselves are well attended but very few folks want to compete. We have a core group up here but we are also active in current AMA pattern, take these folks out of the equation and we are lucky to see 3 or 4 guys want to compete.

I wrote the current patterns used by VRCS based on maneuvers and schedules the AMA used in the late 50's through mid to late 60's. VRCS also flies Class I (rudder only) and Class II (REM) events; again we see a lot of airplanes show up for the overall event that are perfect for the pattern events but folks chose not to compete.

somiss1

My Feedback: (5)

I, for one, would love to see an Antique Pattern event in SPA. Just think of the possibilities, Flattop Stormers, Taurus', Orions, Pegasus', Crusader's and Astro Hogs! Baffled engines wouldn't be required, modern .40 engines would fly those airplanes just fine. I watched Jim Kirkland fly his Orion (first R/C airplane I ever saw) and his Flattop Top Stormer on K&B .45's with no muffler, just a carb and an exhaust throttle and they flew quite well, thank you. (Of course, Jim was kinda good, too!).
Hell, one of these days, I'm going to build a rudder only airplane, again, and try that. How much do you want to bet that I crash?
Frank

NM2K

My Feedback: (14)

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Maybe permitting larger engines, but rewarding (in additional points) those contestants that use engines from the appropriate era/configuration would help level the playing field.

I know this would be a can of worms for SPA, but what if all of the contestants were required to do all of the paperwork/static judging? We would probably enjoy that anyway. <G>

NM2K

My Feedback: (14)

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As you probably know, trimming a single channel airplane is the toughest part. Flying is only 50% of the equation. I learned a lot while flying my first two Testors Skyhawk RTF models, but the trimming was done at the factory - thank God!

You met Jim Kirkland. Wow! He was my "hero" in the model mags. I was depressed for a month when I learned of his passing. I was all of 21 or 22 years old then.

Some of the seniors writing about SPA competition flying sound just like they did back in their younger days. The fire gets lit and off they go - having fun. The problem is that folks reading their comments probably become intimidated at the idea of flying against these folks. I know I do.

Antique Pattern (pardon me screwing up the titles - I'm excited) could be a refuge for those that, while they want to win, their emphasis would be upon the fact of participation and not so much who goes home with a first place trophy, if you know what I mean?

I'm not trying to undercut the other organisation that was named. I'm ignorant of its existence and hope to change that quickly. I have heard of SPA contests being held within reasonable driving distance of my location. Not so with the other organization. Probably just my ignorance.

8178

My Feedback: (17)

I don’t think any engine rule changes are needed at all. There are lots of your favorite NIB classic engines on ebay. Cheap too! Think about how much better the 65 to 75 class would be if they had left the engines alone.

8178

My Feedback: (17)

I forgot to mention the classic engines that most all of us have stored away from the 60s and 70s.

spbyrum

Guys

I think you may see some revival in the SPA Antique classes. There has been some discussion about again including Antique classes at regular contests, or possibly Antique only contests.

Mickey Walker recently corrected an error in the Competitor's Guide as to the time period for Antique planes. The correct cutoff date is January 1, 1970. That now includes all the planes you guys have been discussing and allows a few more current designs. Among others, the Daddy Rabbit which is so popular in SPA is Antique legal, but with the .61-.71 engine limitations.

While flying antique engines might be lots of grins and giggles, most fields have noise limits unmuffled engines cannot meet. The SPA Competitors' Guide (please note I'm no longer calling it a Judges' Guide) allows ANY .61 side exhaust engine. Guide Section I.1.c stipulates the use of a proper muffler.

Please feel free to visit the SPA website and join the email list to further stimulate interest in Antique classes.

rainedave

My Feedback: (1)

Thanks, Steve. That's really good about the extra five years in Antique.

BTW, the OS FL 70 is $179.99 and only weighs 18.3ozs according to Tower. That Crusader is looking even better.

Now, I have a question. Anyone care to start building a list of current production .45s through .61s that are non-Schnuerle? Also, older engines that can easily accomodate contemporary mufflers (without any machining) would be good to know of, too.

Thanks,
David

NM2K

My Feedback: (14)

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I'm with you on the muffler rule. I don't have much hearing left as it is. Besides, it isn't realistic to expect a host club to risk riling its neighbors for a model airplane contest that doesn't mandate muffler usage.

I would like to see the displacement rules modified to at least accept a Saito .72 four-stroke, or even my Enya .74 four-stroke. Why they called that an .80 is a mystery to me. I did the math, it is a .74.

NM2K

My Feedback: (14)

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I do have one of the OS FL-70 engines and am eager to get it flying, just to see how it measures up.

An FL-70 on a Tower Big Stik 40 would be a good combo, I'll bet. As would a K&B .40 -.61, HB .40 -.61, Webra Silverline .40 -.61, Super Tigre .40 -.60 w/baffled piston, Enya .40 - .60 w/baffled piston (lots on eBay).

I'm looking for Tatone Peace Pipes for .40 through .61 size engines. These were among the first strap-on mufflers available. I used the larger version on my OS Max .58 that powered my first "multi" Senior Falcon. Oh, and I finally located and purchased said OS Max .58. It isn't collector's quality, but it will make a fine flying engine.

I would love to see some of the smaller R/C aerobats flying again.

Sport_Pilot

Would a Fox Eagle I .60 be legal? It has a muffler, but the muffler doesn't do much muffling. I also have a baffle ported K&B .61, it is also loud but not as loud as the Fox.

NM2K

My Feedback: (14)

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It meets the letter of the law, so I can't imagine why it wouldn't be legal.

On the other hand, I've been thinking of making up an adapter so that I can bolt on a Tower .46 or .61-.75 muffler on the Eagle .60, just for kicks. That and several of my Eagle .60 engines do not have mufflers, so I need to do something anyway. The old Fox Eagle .60 is one of my favorite old engines.

Duke was into making long stroke engines long before the rest of the engine manufacturers. My Eagles love 11x8-9 props.

somiss1

My Feedback: (5)

Artisan, Jim was in the club that I was lucky to be in, the Eglin Guided Mites, in the Ft. Walton Beach, Florida area. The club had many great members. One member, Cliff Nunnery, who flew B-46s by R/C from his aircraft and was a terrific pattern pilot who chose not to compete. Cliff got the first Space Control system in the area(the first 4 channel analog proportional r/c rig to be made commercially) and installed it into an Astro Hog. Jim, who had been flying reeds, took one look at it and promptly ordered his set! Back then they sold for $1000! The reciever and 3 servos fit into a "brick"(it was gold in color,hence the nickname "gold brick").
Another member, Leroy Good, would buy a Goldberg Falcon 56, a Veco 19 R/C, an Ace kit of a Kraft single channel TX and Rx, a Bonner Escapement, glue, silk and dope on a Friday afternoon, lock himself in his workshop and fly the airplane and radio and Sunday afternoon!
Wow, talk about the good old days!
Anyway, about the engines for the antique class, as long as we can get them reasonably easy on Ebay, I don't care. I only mentioned the modern .40's as they are easy to obtain and cheap. I do not recommend that we go back to open face mufflers or Tatone Peacepipes, though. Quiet, they ain't and flying sites are too hard to get and hold on. The Tower mufflers are a good idea, cheap, effective and can boost power in most cases (except in my beloved Supertigres with the sub-induction porting).
Frank

kingaltair

My Feedback: (4)

I agree with Steve Byrum's comments earlier, although I wish the Antique Class would have been left at 1965--planes up to then really were the earliest pattern planes, and "antiques" compared to later planes like the Daddy Rabbit--which is highly competitive NOW. Oh well, those are the rules as written.

When the subject came up on the SPA Discussion List a month or so ago, there was quite a flurry of interest, with lots of people throwing ideas around. Let me boil down the discussion to list a couple reasons why Antiques Class is not being run now.

1) Not enough competitors--Most people enjoy flying the other class more.
2) Additional entry fees if you fly two classes.
3) Antique and Non-antique planes have different flight characteristics, and if you fly both, it
creates adjustment problems switching back and forth, so you may not do very well in either.
4) Having to choose between classes, to the exclusion of the other--you may not be flying with
your flying buddies.

While there is certainly interest in bringing out the older planes again, these problems need to be resolved. My own feeling is we, (SPA), should designate one of its meets as a "Antique Only" contest, so everybody will still be competing together. This solves the problem of switching back and forth between planes, and paying extra fees.

The only thing that remains is whether or not there are enough people who like the Antique planes enough to build one and compete with it. Some people may not be that interested and might tend to SKIP THAT CONTEST, (we certainly wouldn't want that to happen), although personally I'm all for it. The concept would have to be gererally accepted by MOST OF the participating pilots for it to happen. As for me, I already have ONE Taurus, and have two of Jeff Petroski's replicas in the box.

There is not the same degree of interest in SPA as in VR/CS for authentic engines--the emphasis would be placed on the competition with those planes.

I think occasionally, it would be a nice change of pace from the regular contest. We have roughly one contest every 3-4 weeks. Do enough people want to devote at least ONE meet to that concept?? I would like to try it, but let's see.

NM2K

My Feedback: (14)

I hate to get everyone all riled up and looking forward to an Antique Class contest and then I can't show up - me, the instigator of a small part of this discussion.

Health/high heat is an issue with me, and lots of other folks my age as well. Some of the medications that we take to control our heart disease and other ailments are not high heat friendly. If we could go for a time when the temps are still cool, like in the Spring, or after things have cooled down a bit in the Fall, I think we might be able to pull off an Antique Class contest without disrupting the current SPA competitions. Does anyone in the know have any thoughts on this proposal? Please pardon me if I asked this question before. It does sound familiar - not a good sign.

I have a Goldberg Senior Falcon ARF with an OS FL-70 onboard. Now to get the engine broken-in and to belay the rumors I have heard about this little engine (not good). Lots of folks predict doom and gloom, but all of the reports on RCU, or nearly all of them, seem to indicate that those having problems were newbies to the hobby or to four-strokes. With additional running time, it appears that all of the problems have been satisfactorily resolved, except for the inverted running problem. I never had an air bleed equipped carb that cared much for running inverted. Of course, I learned quickly not to mount my engines inverted anyway. That occurred with my Top Flite Nobler control line model in the very early Sixties.

I hope to get a Sig Astro Hog constructed and fitted with one of my HB, K&B or pre Bluehead ST G60 engines in the near future.

The Astro Hog utilizes a flat-bottomed airfoil. While it doesn't fly anywhere nearly as linearly as a model with a fully symmetrical airfoil, it makes the outside snapping maneuvers a sight to behold. Problem is, I can't remember the old maneuver schedules having any outside snapping maneuvers. <G>


Ed Cregger

spbyrum

Gentlemen

The SPA Masters will be in mid-September for 2007. It just might be that all could gather in mid-October for Antiques only. We had an awful lot of fun at PCMA this year once the frost melted. Maybe some arm twisting among Mickey Walker, John Baxter and Scott Sappington could produce and Antique Masters.

A note on antique Daddy Rabbits. Mickey said the original DR is ok for antique, but not the steroid version lots of guys fly currently.

rainedave

My Feedback: (1)

Steve, my memory sputters a bit. Did I read somewhere that 1970 is the antique cutoff, or is it '65?

kingaltair

My Feedback: (4)

The web site listed 1965 as the Antique Class cut-off for a long time. That date made perfect sense to me since there is a distinct difference between the earliest pattern planes from, say, 1960-1965 compared to planes from 1965 on. The earlier Kwik Fly designs/Taurus/Perigee/Beachcomber or original Phoenix 1 etc are generally accepted as not competitive against the post 1965 designs like the Daddy Rabbit, or my plane the King Altair. The earlier planes, (1962-1965 vs 1969), when put head to head just are not competitive

I was surprised a few months back when the announcement was made that 1970 was the official cut-off date--I still feel 1965 would be a better choice for the reasons listed, to create a level playing field among all planes in the group. I hope the date is returned to 1965, and that an Antique Class meet can be arranged.

Personally I feel there will be an Antique Class designated contest at some point in the future when enough people want to do it, but right now everyone is focused on the more competitive class that spans through 1975.

Duane