wow, I will agree with the above statement that the perceived "changes" to the designs are completely overblown. Anyone interested in either SPA or BPA should certainly come to a contest. I'm sure you'd walk away with very strong feeling of wanting to join in. I'm a current SPA member and competitor and can personally vouch for those folks. I've never attended a BPA event but judging by the class and quality of those folks involved here on the Classic Pattern Forum that are, I feel pretty confident in standing by that statement. I've personally heard from several of my SPA brothers that attended the BPA event this past summer and came away greatly impressed both with the class of people and quality of flyers.
I came to the SPA before the BPA was invented, but I flew "that" era of pattern, the 80s and early 90s. I had all my preconceived notions about pipes and retracts and us vs. them going into the event in '05 where SPA Secretary Steve Byrum allowed a pipes and retracts class to fly against regular competitors. It was great fun, but more then anything, the wheels down, taildraggers, 4-cycles didn't seem all that bad once we got there. Most of all the quailty of people, the kindness & willingness to help a guy that 1. wasn't from the area, 2. Probably had a chip on his shoulder about what he had vs. them, and 3 was certain his piped and retracted Tipo would slice and dice their glorified balsa boxes was unbelievable and totally refreshing. It was how I remembered pattern being when I competed regularly "back then".
To the simple mods, my family has apparently been sinning in pattern since the early 70s, cause through those years we had taildraggers when they werent' in fashion, different size ailerons, different shaped wingtips, reshaped rudders, ported motors etc. This was more personalizing then anything, and was seen up and down the flightlines here in Ohio when I competed in the 80s. I would urge all interested to attend an event before getting bent out of shape about anything in black and white.

As to the original intent of this thread, we will probably see some events here and there that will bring the organizations together from time to time like the fellas in FL are doing, and that's great, but they are two seperate organizations with slightly different (but equally valid) focuses (or should that be foci) and that's why they both exist, and what makes America great.

What I want to know is why all the expectations of animosity between the groups (BPA + SPA)? []

We both like to fly old designs, so let's get out there and DO IT! [>:]

That's been my thinking all along Nathan.

Apparently some myths are just not killable. What strikes me as odd is that the animosity seems to be coming from one particular side, not both. Just MY impression.

-Mike

Down here in Florida, we decided that we did not want to exclude anyone just because they flew a plane with retracts and/or a pipe. The problem was, how do we include everyone and still have the points count toward the SPA Masters. The only viable option was to separate the two but let them fly at the same contest in two separate classes. If we were to fly head to head, the points would not work for the national SPA points ranking.

The upcoming contest is an experiment. If it works out we will continue to fly the two types of pattern together. If no one shows up to compete in the Historical (BPA) classes it will likely be dropped. So go ahead and not attend so you can latter complain that there are NO contest’s for BPA. Rather than complain about it, you should be out there promoting BPA and doing everything you can to grow that aspect of Vintage Pattern. We’re doing what we can to help you promote BPA, so now it’s time you stepped forward and promoted yourselves. Show up at the FVPA contest in force and prove that we have done the right thing.

Bob Cox
SPA # 374
BPA # ? When the BPA gets Organized.

We already proved it at Huntsville. And we'll prove it again in Atlanta next spring. As long as it's billed as an "experiment" and not with any kind of "real" support or permanence, , don't expect much commitment.

Sorry but my first love is AMA/F3A pattern. And our contest is at that field the weekend after. Can't go down there twice, sorry. Bad timing.

-Mike

Oh and rather than complain, I will CD and host a BPA event myself. [8D]

I like to fix problems, not complain.

-M

Duane,

Sorry I left off my smiley face after my nose gear comment.... I think you/me/Steve/Mike and others have a good idea that to balance that 4 stroke something had to go.....so I'll make certain I put in my smiley faces when I make sly/sarcastic comments like that... I certainly wasn't trying to take a jab at you... just poking a little fun....

I think we have an exciting year coming up with new events coming up for both BPA and SPA type fliers. I do want to seriously state again that the merging of the two groups will be at the BPA events due to the rule flexibility AND that I am making no jab/slice at the SPA to change that format in any way.


The person who started this thread wanted a discussion and it seems that is what is happening... so let's just enjoy the ride.


Dan

Nathan, most including myself will wholeheartedly agree with you. Enjoying some classic designs in competition is what it's all about. But clearly there is animosity from some. There are a few undeniable facts about human nature, one being, people don't like being told what to do. The SPA has been an established entity for some time, and as such, it has operated under a framework of rules established by it's members and it's board of directors. If you want to compete in an SPA contest, you have to operate under its rules. Many classic pattern fans like slightly newer designs or just in general some designs that aren't legal under the SPA's current rules. I don't understand the thinking that makes a person mad about this. This would be like showing up to an AMA event with a large IMAC plane. They would tell you they operate under a 2meter and 11lb rule, and you need to fly something that fits that. There is no reaon to be angry about it or harbor animosity toward one group or another. If your likes fit within the SPA's framework, fly SPA, if they fall under BPA's framework, fly BPA, but don't cast dispersions on either group for it.

Why is it so hard to have a pattern contest the way we did before turnaround ??
Who cares if it's BPA, SPA or whatever. Everyone who was flying back then should
remember the rules that were in place. There were no exclusions for any airplane
design, retracts, or whatever , just the .60 engine size restriction. We shouldn't even
need a new organization. Why couldn't we add another classic pattern class to the
contests we already have ? We keep starting new organizations and no one is going
to go to any of them. I personally like both styles and if one of the old patterns was added
to one of our current contests I would probably fly both classes , and don't say there aren't
enough contest quality .60 two-strokes around because that is simply not true, one of our local
hobby shops has a display case full of them and probably a hundred used ones for sale.

tommy s

This is why we are trying to have a contest that includes both SPA and BPA planes. We're trying to include everyone, but some would rather complain that we seperated them than congratulating us for including BPA at all. We felt that if we could get it started with both at one contest that maybe it will open up an avenue to combine them. It may never happen but we will say we tried.

Bob Cox
SPA 374

Maybe I was misunderstood. Who's telling SPA guys what to do? I don't expect to barge into an SPA event with my Atlanta (talk about rude). If I go to their event I play by their rules, that's a given and frankly the only respectful thing to do. The SPA has a right to do what they want, and I don't mind. My point is that when we have a "BPA" event nothing is stopping everybody from getting together, flying, and having a great time. There shouldn't be any hard feelings at such events. I respect the SPA guys, and I hope they do likewise. There's really not much separation here gentleman!

Nathan, you've misunderstood what I was saying. Nobody is telling SPA what to do, in saying "people don't like being told what to do" I was referring to some taking issue with SPA's rule set concerning years and equipment (pipes, retracts. etc). Most if not all of the animosity I've witnessed on this forum and in this thread clearly revolves around these issues.

Who? Quote, please, I'm curious. Complaining, or stating simple fact?

Congradulations BTW.

Bob---It is obvious that a lot of thought went into the formula to make a combined meet a reality. I think it will work, and it will satisfy SPA's Competitor's Guide specifications at the same time. I have talked to some BPA enthusiasts who are excited about the possibilities the Florida rules open up. I haven't seen or heard anything but raves from the SPA Discussion List. Unfortunately, I have already taken Thanksgiving week off, and I don't dare ask for any more time until after the first of the year. If a contest is held in January of February, I'll really try to come.

Mike--You should re-read the tone of your posts with an objective eye; obviously you don't see the abrasiveness. I don't think diplomacy is your strong suit[8D](please don't hit a guy with glasses).

There is honestly no animosity from me--I enjoy either flying, (or watching) all kinds of pattern. BPA is too fast for me--I'd have a pile of splinters to take home in no time, but I enjoy a beautiful, properly execute maneuver regardless of the type of plane.

Duane

You're right, I don't see it.

But that wasn't the question.

-M

I really didn't mean to open a can of worms, although the discussion for the most part is very enlightening.

My thought on this thread was to discuss how the SPA and the BPA could co-ordinate to provide contests with more "critical mass" of fliers.

Back in the day, a normal pattern contest had about 40-60 fliers in 5 classes, at least here in the NE.

When I first heard of the SPA, I was really excited. Then they allowed 4 strokes.. I lost all interest. I just took away too much for me to relive the fun days of pattern. I know I'm not the only one who felt this way as the SPA lost several members after the change. I don't bring this up to open a wound, but to make a point. Some people want it to be like the old days. I think the BPA is trying to be more representative of the way it was. I may do some flying in BPA events, but don't see myself going to SPA stuff. It is all about reliving the glory days of pattern. I don't have a time preference, only an appreciation for tyring to do it accurately. I understand that noise was suppose to be the reason for allowing the 4 strokes --- but when you go to changing a designs you ruin it for me. Please understand that for some, historical accuracy has considerable draw for this type of event. There is no malice here, only stating the way it hits me personally. BTW, I would love to do the SPA planes with the original rules.

Cody

ps.
years of reading as a guest, and what a first post.....

Yep here too. Do you know what happened?

No it wasn't turn around, although how many times have you heard that?

It was a simple case of dilution. There are only so many people in any given group that are going to be a competetive pilot. Back in the day, there were far fewer choices if you wanted something a little more demanding.

Now we have IMAC, jets, 3D, helicopters that WORK, and of course...modern AMA pattern and SPA pattern.

Hence my point of why exclusion is not a great idea. It's my opinion, it has no tone. There is really no us and them. There's us and more us. But somehow that always gets lost in these threads.

And in truth there is really only one logical conclusion that was reached some time ago: We (being outsiders) have been told VERY clearly that we should not even attempt to change SPA or it's rules. That is just ice cold fact. But here's where everything gets blurred: we don't care!!!!! SPA can do whatever SPA wants. We ARE BPA, so we can do whatever WE want as well....and that means a very tolerant airframe and rule set. ALL SPA members are welcome to fly thier SPA planes, or they can jump up and break out the Aurora. Whatever floats your boat.

But that doesn't mean we condemn SPA, we simply don't agree. It's totally irrelavent too. I want to fly my Aurora from hell, in a pattern contest, and not have to worry about anything except the geometry of my manuever....period. No politics, no red tape, no stringent rules that I simply don't agree with. I want the freedom to fly what I want to fly in the general spirit of the event. I do the EXACT same thing in AMA pattern. Have you looked at my site? Do you know how much grief I got when I first entered into the 2 meter fray...in the modern era...competing against NOTHING but zillion dollar overseas composite jobs? With my self built self designed pile of sticks???? It's my thing. It's what drives me. If I couldn't be creative and free to experiment, I'd take up golf instead. It's a lot cheaper.

I certainly don't see that as complaining, or having "tone" to it. Perhaps the blunt straight forward approach comes off as "tone". Nope, I just hate wasting time and beating around the bush, I like to come straight to the point, and there it is. Life's too short to mince words.

Generally speaking, that is

-M

Wow you jumped straight into the fire didn't you?

LOL welcome

-Mike

This is an interesting discussion, covering many issues.
Before turnaround I flew MK Arrows with OS 61VF and an OPS pipe set conservative, somewhere between 13,500 and 14,000 RPM on the ground. The airplane weighed about 7.5 pounds and went like stink. The field where I flew had a noise problem and I needed to get quiet. I added a soft mount, went to a 12-9 prop and lengthened the pipe about 2”. I dropped 10 DB and gained performance burning about half the fuel and the glow plug lasted all season. I was especially impressed with the authority with which it pulled away from the corners on the square loop with half rolls.
My first turnaround airplane used an OS 61 SF and Mac quiet pipe turning a 13-9 APC, which was really pushing it. I later converted to an OS 91-FS turning the same prop almost exactly the same RPM’s. The power system weight was about equal but the four-stroke weight was all up front requiring lead in the tail.
You don’t necessarily need a four cycle to keep the noise down. Davis Diesel Development http://davisdieseldevelopment.com/muffler/index.htm has a variety of Sound Master mufflers and quiet pipes. I have a remote mount SM-GMF, which as I remember somewhat tuned with a header extension and was noticeably quiet. It has been a long time.
Jim

Original from the “FLORIDA VINTAGE PATTERN ASSOCIATION CONTEST” thread

grcourtney wrote:

“Why can't the BPA style and the SPA style compete head to head!!!!??? That would get me to drive from north AL. to Orlando!!! As proven from our contest here in Huntsville there is no disparity between the power plants just ask Don,Jason, Joe or Ryan they were here... “



gary



I would like to apologize to those here and to you particularly Mike. I carried my feelings from the above quote over to this thread. Since I was instrumental in starting the Florida Vintage Pattern Association, I took it personally (probably too personally) when someone makes that kind of comment in a thread about a contest that was designed with a format to include BPA planes. My first thought when I read the comment was: “We try to include you guys and it’s not good enough for you?”

Don’t get me wrong, I like BPA as much as any of you. My next build is a Calypso with retracts and pipe. The problem is there is no national organization for the BPA so we had to start a chapter of the SPA. As such we will fallow the rules that have been set down by the SPA. I personally will not have a .91 powered Vintage pattern plane. I don’t agree with the rule but it’s already there so I will accept it. That’s just the way it has to be.

I personally hold no animosity towards any BPA plane or anyone who fly’s one and deep down would like to see them mixed right in with the SPA planes and pilots (as long as they’re all using .61 size engines). In the end it’s going to be the best pilot who goes home with the hardware.

Bob Cox
SPA 374

Yeah Bob I kinda gathered that, but it's cool.

To me it's just frustrating because I feel very strongly that we are dealing with myths, not facts. Name a myth, we've probably put it to a test and disproved it recently. Pick one:

1. AMA pattern flyers are snobs and unfriendly

-to this I say when was the last time you were actually at an AMA contest? This is utter BS.

2. Pipes and retracts give an advantage over a 4 stroke with fixed gear

-This is just pure BS. The only way to prove it was to actually hold a contest and let the 2 intermix, with varying skill levels of pilots...from rank beginners to the likes of Jason Shulman and Don Lowe. We tested it. We flew it. We scored it. There is no difference. Perhaps judging has simply improved in the last 20 years?

3. SPA guys have more fun and are more friendly and helpful

-than what? I'd agree most of the SPA guys I know are awesome people. VERY friendly. But it also seems like a vast majority of the animosity is coming from the SPA camp. This is judging from my personal experience.

4. Piped planes with retracts cost more

-Again, than what? A specially built Daddy Rabbit with a $350 engine with digital servos? That's odd, my first 2 meter cost me a grand total of about $900. Only because I had to buy every single screw that went in it, and that included a couple hundred worth of PPG paint too. by the time you have one of THOSE Rabbits geared up, how much is in that one? I bet not much less. So....BS.

5. There is no REAL interest in ballistic pattern planes

-umm....one word: Huntsville. BS again.

6. turnaround killed pattern

-This one is my favorite!!!!!! because turnaround made a bunch of people go elsewhere. Guess what? We have 40+ people at AMA pattern contests right now and they are growing again. We fly turnaround even in the entry class. I only mention this because a lot of people see the screamin demons as the last stand before full on turnaround. And a lot of the planes we fly in BPA were turnaround planes. They were just really fast and smooooooth. And FYI AMA pattern ain't dead guys. Far from it.

7.

Never mind I'm gonna stop there. but you get the idea. I KNOW for a fact that we are dealing with BS myths that are the sole cause of any friction, real or imagined. And it frustrates me to no end.

But that's ok, because we now have BPA! And now the guys that have been practically begging SPA to let us play with our toy planes WITH THEM for years, have a playground....and it's brand new!!! But the best part, and I mean this seriously, is that we can fly with SPA pilots that do not HAVE to get a special plane to come fly with us! It doesn't make us better, just less stringent. Off the record, I DO think it's a shame that SPA will not see this and is determined to keep things as they are. But remember this is MY opinon and I am not a member of SPA...so take it with a grain of salt, it's worth exactly what you paid for it.

-M

In the begining of this thead it sounded like everyone wanted to promote our STYLE of flying, Vintage Pattern. And I agree that have one big group would be much easier to promote and would be more exicting for spectators, simply because their would be more planes. Even a contest w/ two seperate classes for SPA and BPA would still help promote it.
I personally stand 100% behind anything that keeps this part of R/C alive. Pattern/F3A here is totally gone []. I am the only person on Oahu (Hawaii), and I believe I'm one of 3 in the state, who still enjoys these planes. So their is no way for me to have a contest, I should just go down and buy myself a trophy.
Consider yourselves very fortunate, I would love to compete in either class.[]

DM

I guess I am out of line here but I am going to give you my pennys worth. I am not a vintaage flier since I did not start RC flying till I was 62 and retired. I enjoy building and I like 4 stroke sound. I don't care if you want 2 strokes on the planes and fly better than me. I like the competition and fellowship and the airplanes. If you did not allow 4 stroke powered planes I would lose interest and go somewhere else since that is my preference. If a 4 stroke airplane loses to a 2 stroke in the hands of a skilled pilot so what? I would probably like Ballistic pattern but I have never seen a contest and until they started a chapter in Florida had never heard of it. More power and personnel to the BPA and to SPA. I think both organizations fill a need. Why don't you both work together and help people like me come to realize what each organization has to offer? If the planes are as fast in BPA as you seem to think then I can never fly one since I don't have the reflexes to fly jets or real fast ships. I can do some of the patterns but have a real problem judging distance since I have but one eye, so I have not competed as yet. When I learn to compensate for that problem I will join the competition in SPA and expect to win at times. Lets cooperate and make both organizations enjoyable so that newcomers want to participate in both classes. FOR WHAT ITS WORTH TO YOU. Why can you not see that the bickering that is going on is hurting both organizations and not gaining you any membership. I have followed this thread because I was getting interested in BPA but still do not seem to understand what the differences are that are so terrible betwen the two. Why cannot my Troublemaker fly in either of them with maybe an engine change out to comply with the change in rules between the two? I still don't understand why i need a pipe on the plane as I am not a plumber and could not tune one anyway.

My statement was intended to help promote the orlando florida contest and allow those such as myself to have a choice of classes to fly in. just having 2 classes for the (BPA style) to fly in would puts me an average flyer up against the likes of Jason, Joe, Ryan,and Don. All of these flyers are great people but its a fore gone conclusion that they will end up in the top spots I don't have a problem with that as I am aware of the great talent and skill they have that I do not at there level anyway, I could fly sportsman (Novice) but I am past that level I think? and it would not be fair to those that are not at my so called level!!!. I had hoped that the organizers (CD) would intergrate the styles SPA-BPA and fly them together head to head I'm not looking for SPA championship points I just wan't to fly my XLT in competition against people at my level but as I can see this will not happen. Some one needs to break the cycle of exclusion as we did in Huntsville and will do again!!!

I am planning on attending the orlando contest for two reasons. The first is I'm not off work the next weekend the AMA event is being held at that field. The second is I wan't to repay so to speak Jason, Joe, Ryan,and Don for attending My event in Huntsville as it is a long haul between the two Fields and I appreciate there sacrifice under taking such a long journey!!!!!


Gary