wind junkie

My Feedback: (1)

This is all very interesting.

If you'll pardon my inexperience and bear with me, I have these observations:

From examination of the BPA and SPA rules, it seems both groups were formed mostly for these reasons:

1) Lower cost than state of the art Pattern equipment
2) Simplicity in airframe set up and contest format
3) affinity for older style designs

I'd like to ask a question which may strike at the heart of the issue discussed in this thread:

Is BPA not concerned with NOISE at all?

The only rule I saw on the BPA site that touched this area was that the plane must have an "effective" muffler. SPA seems to address the noise issue by prohibiting tuned pipes or oversise bore carbs.

As a relative "outsider" (one who does not compete in pattern), I observe the very name "Ballistic" Pattern association seems to celebrate aspects associated with speed AND Noise.

To be honest, I've always liked planes that rip the sky and attract attention. I'm fortunate to fly at a club with no noise restrictions, and for many years I flew a Kaos 60 with a piped rear exhaust 5 port motor and an 11x7 prop. The pipe side area gave it passable KE but I never competed with it.

I'm now wondering when BPA fliers travel to compete, is it assumed that a BPA event will have no noise restrictions at the home field? Perhaps noise may be considered a better discriminator (at least in the eyes of BPA fliers) describing the largest difference between BPA and SPA?

Please enlighten me.
Joe

grcourtney

My Feedback: (1)

I fly a os. .61 Hanno and the associated pipe APC 12x12 at 9800 rpms and my aircraft makes less than 93db. Noise is an issue at alot of fields and there are pipes that will meet requirements at any field Macs sells them hatori also and to my knowledge they are quiter than the 4c that are running standard mufflers. Running a baffled tunned pipe only cost a couple hundred rpms. So the SPA argument that 4c is not as loud as 2c on a pipe is BULLLONEY!!!! My plane is not as loud as many of the .91 4c that are flying in the SPA.


I would love to pylon race a SPA legal aircraft to prove that the speed of the two styles are relatively the same...


gary

MHester

My Feedback: (1)

1) SPA yes, BPA no
2) SPA yes, BPA no
3) Yes to both

You missed one:
4) Affinity for older non-turnaround pattern itself...the "style".

Also noise: Guilty as charged. No we're not overly concerned with noise, any more than the AMA in general. But as Gary pointed out, they aren't THAT loud (yet). But nobody has actually shown up with a rev-up on a nitro pipe.

Changing gears for a second...

Some guys still seem to be missing the point. We're not bickering with SPA...at least not intentionally. But I do admit we get a little worn by SPA seeming to have some sort of problem with us. The cold and simple fact is that we WANT to fly and compete together with SPA guys and thier OWN planes. That's why the rules are so wide open in BPA, and that's what we wanted years ago, and that's why BPA was started...because SPA wouldn't budge on the rule set. But we're not angry or bitter, we just accepted the fact that they weren't going to change and we shouldn't try any longer.

That left us only one course of action, which was to begin our own organization and invite THEM to fly with US. THEN there is no us vs them, it's just us.

There is no official BPA organization as a SIG...because we have no interest in competing with SPA, and I hope they don't see it that way. We simply wanted something that didn't exist. We hoped that the logic of being a natural fit with the idea of SPA would make things easier and better for everyone, but the powers that be in SPA do not see it that way. After many years (search these forums) of practically begging, we decided to do it ourselves. With or without help.

And the result was astounding. In 108 degree heat, a lot of people showed up to compete with ballistic AND SPA planes. Everybody had on BPA shirts, the atmosphere was simply unique. Something I've never seen. People drove in from other states who didn't even have a plane...just to support the concept. That's a pretty powerful statement...especially considering tha tthe BPA doesn't officially exist, it's just a brotherhood of guys who like the same things.

So there is no bickering and whatntot coming from here. No abrasiveness, no confrontation, just explaination. If the explanation seems abrasive, that's because the BPA was founded due to the ice cold fact that we were told, sometimes very coldly, to go jump in a lake. That wasn't our doing. But we only had 2 choices, which were CLEARLY outlined: forget it and fly a SPA legal plane in an SPA event (which is not what we were interested in simply due to the planes themselves) or do it ourselves.....

The rest is history. No anger, bitterness or whatnot. Only solutions and opportunities.

-M

kingaltair

My Feedback: (4)

[/quote]

Changing gears for a second...

Some guys still seem to be missing the point. We're not bickering with SPA...at least not intentionally. But I do admit we get a little worn by SPA seeming to have some sort of problem with us. The cold and simple fact is that we WANT to fly and compete together with SPA guys and thier OWN planes. That's why the rules are so wide open in BPA, and that's what we wanted years ago, and that's why BPA was started...because SPA wouldn't budge on the rule set. But we're not angry or bitter, we just accepted the fact that they weren't going to change and we shouldn't try any longer.

That left us only one course of action, which was to begin our own organization and invite THEM to fly with US. THEN there is no us vs them, it's just us.

There is no official BPA organization as a SIG...because we have no interest in competing with SPA, and I hope they don't see it that way. We simply wanted something that didn't exist. We hoped that the logic of being a natural fit with the idea of SPA would make things easier and better for everyone, but the powers that be in SPA do not see it that way. After many years (search these forums) of practically begging, we decided to do it ourselves. With or without help.

So there is no bickering and whatntot coming from here. No abrasiveness, no confrontation, just explaination. If the explanation seems abrasive, that's because the BPA was founded due to the ice cold fact that we were told, sometimes very coldly, to go jump in a lake. That wasn't our doing. But we only had 2 choices, which were CLEARLY outlined: forget it and fly a SPA legal plane in an SPA event (which is not what we were interested in simply due to the planes themselves) or do it ourselves.....

The rest is history. No anger, bitterness or whatnot. Only solutions and opportunities.

-M
[/quote]

I don't really know how to respond to a barrage of "explanation" like this. All I can say after reading Mike's extended comments is, if I were in SPA, (and I am), I wouldn't feel all that warm--and--fuzzy about how he views the SPA/BPA relationship--despite his claims to the contrary. I sure feel I'm being yelled at by an angry man with very inflammatory rhetoric--that may be his style, but it is not helpful if his aim is to bring the groups together. Just count the number of references to "BS". That is not something I'd say to someone unless I wanted to argue with them. That talk is not coming from me or SPA.

I think I've about had it with this thread. I feel I, (as well as Eric and Steve) have, explained the best we know how the differences, (and more importantly--the similarities), between the organizations. After attending the first BPA event in Hunstville, I actually came away somewhat changed, and hoping the two groups could develop their relationship over time, and perhaps even merge someday, however after this discussion, I don't see how that's possible unless the negatives are toned down. We need to look for similarities, not nit-pick at each difference.

I felt, (and still feel) that the Florida organizers put a lot of thought into this issue when they organized their meet, and did the very best they could to promote both types of flying. They needed to take into consideration the way SPA is structured, the traditions that have developed since 1991, and the importance of "Masters Points" to SPA members. Understandably, it may not mean much to those in BPA, but I feel there should be an appreciation that the Florida people are trying hard for a bigger umbrella, and have a heart-felt desire to bring the groups together.

There are a lot of SPA members that want to promote better ties with BPA--I've talked with them. Remember things don't change overnight, but they never will change if there are constant negative "vibes" in RCU threads. Let's promote the positive without further "explanations"--they have been adequately described.

Enough said by me

Duane

grcourtney

My Feedback: (1)

I have already seen the answer to the "problem" if there is one "problem that is". Hold your own contest and make your own rules mine being come and fly I don't care what era(non turn around) "don't be exclusive be inclusive" and the "problem is solved" if there is one"problem that is"...


gear up, see ya!!!!


gary

MHester

My Feedback: (1)

I am sorry you feel that way. However, we have spoken in person and you had the same problems with me. Not once did I ever raise my voice, and you know it. But you are perhaps the most defensive person I have ever met. I will not change the way I speak or type just because someone has a problem with it. If you view it as angry, inflammatory or whatever, that's your take...NOT the truth. I am very direct, and that won't change. I am sorry you do not subscribe or cannot deal with the direct approach.

But you have yet to actually counter anything I have typed. Not one single thing. You can't, because it's ice cold fact.

I say "BS" to those things I mentioned because that's what they are...old myths as old as the hills that have no basis in truth in TODAY'S era. I asked you in person why you felt AMA pattern guys were so arrogant and unfriendly, remember that? You said you'd had bad experiences in the past. But when I asked you when was the last time you actually ATTENDED an AMA pattern contest, your answer was "1985". That's 22 years. Going by that logic, computers are slow, huge, expensive and cell phones are a pipe dream.

But this is what we're dealing with...myths. If you want to know where the REAL friction lies, it's in old myths that are still being spread like it was the gospel. Sorry, but that really aggrivates me. Maybe you have to get spitting angry and yelling to be direct and cut to the chase, but I do not. To me it's simply a problem that needs a solution. I do not claim to be the voice of the BPA, this is just my own opinion. I clearly outlined the facts and the myths and the "whys" of it all. From a BPA founder's perspective, simply as why we did what we did. If you choose to believe there's anger in it, well knock yourself out.

But some of the things that have been discussed "off the record" are just as important (and crucial to this debate) as the ones that are on the record. So if it looks like part of this story is missing; it is. Thus far I have honored my agreement. But if I keep getting singled out by you, because you have an apparent issue with me on a personal level, we may need to discuss some things more openly.

Hello!!!!!!!!!!! We do not want to change SPA!!!!!!!! (ok now I'm yelling because you've ignored this time and again. Perhaps you just missed it so I typed it in bold). We're fine just like we are. This thread is not about the Florida meet, it's about SPA and BPA and thier co-existance and future relationships. We do not have a problem with SPA!!! In fact we really appreciate the efforts that the SPA organizers are going through to try and accomidate us. If I did not have to attend the AMA meet in Orlando the weekend before, I would be there for certain. Unfortunately I have business at the AMA meet so this one is a no brainer.

Now as for the original direction of this thread....I would hope so. but I gaurantee you nothing will change until the BS myths and untruths are dealt with and put to rest forever.

Because I was singled out by Duane (once again) I felt the need to clarify...once again. I'm not sure how many times I need to type the same thing before it stops being swept under the rug and someone makes a deliberate misdirection in order to avoid the topic.

Can't we all just get along? Maybe but I am beginning to think something someone told me "off the record" is more true than I gave it credit for.

-M

MHester

My Feedback: (1)

Exactly. Pretty simple isn't it?

-M

crankpin

My Feedback: (15)

This thread has some air. Two full tanks, and nitrous at that. I have enjoyed every comment made by the flyers here. I like SPA and BPA. Interesting. If you combined all SPA and BPA contest's in one year, how many will there be ? Just in the southeast.

I will fly SPA and when I get ready, fly BPA also. Being quailified for BPA is where I would like to be. I like the retracts, snarling .61's and pipes. I will get my engines massaged when the time comes.

Going to contest's from where I live, and if it is out of state, it takes me 5 hours just to get out of south FL. I am not complaining, but calculate the $$ for a two day weekend, 600 miles from here.

1200 miles round trip @ 20 mpg, (maybe). 60 gallons of gas, and it will be $3.50+ soon for 89 = $210.00, conservative figure.
Hotel, food, etc., one night: 125.00
Contest Admission : 40.00 ? ?
Cost to go to contest one weekend .................................................. ...............................$375.00 +

I have spent much more on other hobbies.

Vince

grcourtney

My Feedback: (1)

Thats interesting I have said many times about flying 2m planes that the cost for a 2m plane is initially higher than say a SPA/BPA but the real cost flying in compitition is the travel...

gary

crankpin

My Feedback: (15)

Gary - Did you buy the Phoenix I had on E-Bay ?
Vince

kingaltair

My Feedback: (4)

First, my desire at this point in the thread is to tone things down. I met Mike at the Huntsville meet--and he IS a little on the blunt side about saying what he thinks, (which is no surprise to anyone on this thread). I left Huntsville feeling we, (meaning me and all the BPA guys), had had a good "meeting of the minds". This thread just got a little out of hand--pure and simple. Mike's a good guy, and more importantly, we both love this great hobby of ours. I for one never want to have a personal problem with another pattern pilot. Frustration runs both ways[>:], and sometimes it spills over into black and white--it always seems stronger in print. So I apologize for anything that may have offended Mike. I guess we will have to "agree to disagree" on some things---but I want to leave the disagreement here, (remember "Tip" O'Neil and Ronald Reagan were friends on a personal level).

I am going to try to honestly address Mike's "myths". These are perceptions that may be inferred from statements made in my SPA articles, but I personally would NOT have said any of them in the exact way they were framed by Mike above. When the articles in Model Aviation came out in May of 2006, and this past July, I was waiting for some negative e-mails from people who would take issue with me about things I said--but I only got positive e-mails---thank you. Now is the time for me to answer the objections as honestly as I can. I am certain that these answers will not satisfy some, but they are an attempt to respond--I would just ask that they not be picked apart and debated further--what I've answered above is how I feel, and if there is disagreement, then so be it. No two people agree about everything, (much less all SPA and BPA pilots).

Again--I want to concentrate on the similarities between BPA and SPA, and what we have in common and can share--not the differences.

Duane

grcourtney

My Feedback: (1)

yes! checks in the mail(paypal) I have a brand new hanno for it and retracts thought about putting a.91 4c in but then I would have to gouge my eyeballs out with a rusty spoon since that would include a little pain looks like it will be equipted as Don intended gear up for speed get on the pipe.


gary

Nathan King

HA! You think you're putting down too much for the trip. I live in Omaha, Nebraska! I'm looking at 1000 miles to get to the BPA event (15 hrs one way).

2000 miles round trip @ 22 mpg. 91 gallons x $3.50 = $318.50 Beat that! Oh crap! I didn't want to know that! [:@]

Ignorance is bliss in this case!

MHester

My Feedback: (1)

Duane, perhaps the whole problem is you are taking what I say personally, while it was meant very much in general. When I direct a response to a particular person, I point that out. Otherwise it's just meant as a general statement, not directed at any one group in particular. Much less one individual.

Yep I am the king of blunt. I'm actually pretty happy about that. I used to be extremely shy and quiet (I know, but you didn't meet me 15 years ago) but then I got Lupus and it almost killed me. I was supposed to be dead in 98, 2002 and then again this last summer. So if I'm blunt, that's why....I hate wasting time, because it's precious. It's part of my whole being. If I feel I can save 5 years of wishy washy maybe by throwing something out there and ripping it to shreds, I'll do it so fast it'll make your head spin. hence why I don't do politics in AMA pattern anymore...too much compromise for my taste.

While I will compromise, I won't give up and go away. I'm not sure I know how.

you KNOW I feel the same about all of this and quite frankly, I wasn't even aware that we disagreed on that much. What are we disagreeing about exactly? That's my point. The one that has been missed.

Yep in the beginning...what 5 years ago if my seacrh engine works properly...I wanted to change some rules in SPA. While I understand the "whys", I don't agree on the SPA rule set. That is exactly the reason I'm not in SPA, so the fact that I disagree there simply should not matter at all. I realized I could not change it...you and I both know why....so me and a group of like minded guys just went and did our own thing. Because we don't want to wait to have fun and play with our toys. And again if you remember the conversations in H'ville, you know what I mean by "waiting". if I had to wait for that, there is a better than average chance I won't live to see it. Now there, it doesn't get much more blunt than that does it?

Ok switching subjects slightly.

What would I like to see? I would love to see SPA evolve into what BPA is. But I am not going to hold my breath because there is nothing "wrong" with SPA. There's no reason for change like that, if you're an SPA member. If you're not, you're out of luck without the BPA contests. My primary concern if I actually have one for the SPA is this: I hope time doesn't pass SPA by. There is a window of nostalgia that constantly moves forward. It follows people's own aging process like the cycle of life itself. The nostalgia process runs about 20 years deep and really kicks in when a person approaches 40. When SPA was formed, what era did the want to "relive"? The era of about 20 years prior. Now that guys like myself, Gary, Ryan Mc, Joe, etc are approaching middle age, that 20 year nostalgia window has moved forward.

And so, just like SPA was born from nostalgia and a backlash against turn around pattern, BPA is born of nostalgia and a somewhat different backlash from SPA. There is no more animosity towards SPA from us than there was from SPA towards AMA when SPA was born. But if there WAS animosity back then, why is it ok for SPA but not ok for us? Double edged sword isn't it?

I'm just being analytical. Maybe I have a point. Maybe I should let my hair grow out so no one will notice.

-M

crankpin

My Feedback: (15)

Time to Fly

Nathan King

I know, I was just being playful with the comment.

Nice rides!!! [X(]

crankpin

My Feedback: (15)

Gary - I will get it to UPS Monday. It may take 2 boxes, one for the fuse and one for the cores.
Vince

Balsawings

Mike, this is exactly the problem vintage C/L stunt is running into. They set rules based on set years rather than a number of years back. They stop, I beleive at 1972. Now they have a number of members who would like to fly planes that are just outside the 1972 rule. Now they are looking at changing to a set number of years back from the current year. As a result the date of design a plane would be legal would change each year. If it happens they will allow planes from 1973 next year and add a year each new year.

The reason for the change is they realized that the organization was beginning to stagnate and needed new blood in the ranks to keep it going. I beleive this is in part what you are eluding to. We have actually had this discussion before in an other topic.

Right now the SPA is growing faster than any one was prepared for and with that kind of growth there will be no insintive to change.

The Florida group is hoping that we can generate enough intrest in BPA to at some point have a BPA contest. The upcoming contest will not be the last contest to include "Historic" pattern even if the turn out is low at this first one. We will most likely keep it for all the contests for next year and then decide whether to continue for 2009. The hope is to get enough interest to have a stand alone contest in 2009. We may even have one in 2008 if the interest is there. We are very serious about BPA done here as most of the pilots in our group also fly BPA. So, stay tuned, and please help us get the SPA/BPA, Vintage pattern contest off the ground. You may find that SPA is not as ridged as you think.

Bob Cox
SPA 374

crankpin

My Feedback: (15)

Bob - Well said. I think that the first SPA or SPA/BPA contest, will attract lookers, and these lookers may turn into joiners. Guys that flew some pattern years ago, and now are looking for something else to do, vs. boring holes in the sky. They may have the time to do this now.

Vince

oo shee

My Feedback: (1)

I've been following this thread with some interest and thought I'd put in my rare $.02 worth. Seems to me that combining SPA/BPA or anything else for that matter is simply a matter of loosely defining the allowable airframe/engine combinations (much like modern F3A is defined). The vintage of the plane would make no difference.

And this leads to something that is missing in both SPA and BPA. While we're wrapped up in the airframes of old, we're missing the creative element of the old days. There is no provision for original designs. Wasn't that part of the past also? Limiting building materials and techniques to balsa would also encourage new affordable designs (no high tech materials).

This way any era plane can be entered, to include new and original designs, at an affordable price.

I'm probably full of it though, so feel free to ignor this post if you wish.

grcourtney

My Feedback: (1)

There is no airframe time limitation in the "BPA" original designs are welcome. Airframes are only limited to 72in wing span, which dictates more or less engine displacement. Having said that if someone shows up with a 75in. wing span aircraft at my contest they will not be turned away. I think the spirit of the concept is more important than the strict interpritation. That follows our be inclusive not exclusive battle cry!!!


gary

Mad Man Marko-RCU

I'm sitting in the kitchen sipping coffee watching snow flurries outside here in Oakdale, CT. Time to start building something besides an ARF. Have 2 sets of cores and plans for Ron Chidgey's Tiger Tail and Don coleman's Sweetater. Think I've got to do the Tiger Tail first. Had one in 1975 and it flew great Webra 61 and PCS 4 ch. radio. My new version will not be SPA competitive. It will have a brand new Webra 61 three (3) wheels and that nice looking Tiger Tail fin and rudder rather than the Billboard that the SPA versions that I have seen in the newsletter. I'm not looking to win just to have the same plane that I had. A duck may be a duck but my duck will be the duck. I have really enjoyed the Quik Fli builds that are in the forums nice looking original plane. Back in the day those old sixties and original planes sure did fly some real pretty manuevers with the right guys at the stick. You could have asked Ron C., Don C., Jim K., Jim W., Jim M., and Norm P. to name a few and they would say you don't need anything but what they had to get it done.

It's always been the pilot that wins. Oh well time to go build or check the snowblower (think I'll build).

Peace

Mark O

vintageflyer

My Feedback: (1)

Sorry Nathan, I gotcha There. From Hawaii to any contest will be about $1000 round trip airfare, renting a car, then start with the gas and hotel. I still would consider it, as I never had a chance to witness a REAL organized event like the ones you guys hold. I would cost allot of $, but then, I've loved this hobby since I was 8 and I LOVE old pattern, always have and always will, even if I can only afford to attend ONE contest, the memory (and smiles) will last me 'til I'm old and grey. So I'm watching this thread very closely. I really wish I could have gone to Vegas when Curcus Curcus Hobbies and Curcus Curcus Hotel held the TOC. If I met Mr. Prettner then, I still would be grinin'

DM

Nathan King

WOW, now THAT'S Dedication! One thousand dollars could buy a NICE airplane!

Thanks, now I can justify the trip by saying, "See, I'm not spending THAT much. There's some crazy idiot in Hawaii that is spending well over one grand.".

vintageflyer

My Feedback: (1)

Well thanks for the insight of my character[:@].
Flight to mainland...................$1000
Car rental for a week..............$300
Hotel for 6 nights....................$600
Experience and memories taking form a SPA and/or BPA contaest...

PRICELESS



DM