UStik, if you read the magazine article back at post 961 on this page (Here, there and everywhere) you will see where the writer was 'very interested in the plan Ed brought with him.' This along with his new transistorised radio and other odds and sods. Correct me if I am wrong, but that meeting must have been not much later than May 1962, and the only plan we know of is the Myers drawing, the MAN/Topflight plan still being more than 6 months away. Now for a bit of supposition. I have here and will scan and post, pictures of Ed and his trike Orion, which appears to have less dihedral the the Topflight version. Methinks that Orion begat Taurus slowly during 1961, and that Ed may have indeed built two Taurus after the demise of the flop. It just might be that one of them was the original, Kazmirski 'contest Taurus' and the other the modified, longer 'cover girl'. Given Eds propensity to modify everything it does not seem inconceivable.
This would give him two models to take to Africa, with wings identical enough to fit either fuselage, as we know happened, thanks to Cees. It would seem that the pilot, and possibly the canopy, of the first (short) Taurus later ended up perched on top of the T2. Ed obviously preferred the longer model for contest work, and this model was then used as the basis for the MAN/TF version. Just a thought.
Evan.

More research stuff found, Aeromodeller June 1962.
Evan.

Model Aircraft, Feb 1962 and RCM&E, July 1962. just background stuff, but indicates that Les Fruh was manufacturing wheels with shiny rims...
Evan.

Gents,
For me some “ventilation organization restrictions” for covering the wings give me some time to respond.

Post 902, page 37 I did write:



These days I did read :

Footprints uncovered in Kenya show that as early as 1.5 million years ago an ancestral species, almost certainly Homo erectus, had already evolved the feet and walking gait of modern humans.

And immediately thought about post 950 page 38:
Wheelprints of the Taurus of Dennis Hunt in Rhodesia? If we could search for that, do you expect to find some?
May I have your votes please?

Cees

7 - wow, that's a lot of bull

Andy

And you are mother Taurus?

Thank you Cees, at least you read my posts carefully! (And you found the clunk tank and engine mounting plate, fine.)


No, I won't correct you, but that's not the point. That's just what I find a bit obscure. Why didn't you say it was the Africa trip when Ed met the RCM&E people? (Correct me if I'm wrong.) So again: Who drew the plans (the MAN is similar)? When had Ed plans, and who gave them to him? (I don't think he drew any plan.) Why not send them to Dennis Hunt by mail, and why take plans with him when travelling to Africa? (Could be simply they wanted to know what had been planned for the Taurus and Tauri. Could be even possible that someone in GB drew the "sketch" to appear in future RCM&E after Ed gave all specifications.)

I don't expect answers, just thoughts (and new information found after thinking about that).

I won't comment on the T2 pilot issue.

UStik?

Yes, nice information also the modern Tauri, but I did ask :

Why didn't I get your vote?
Maybe you did not understand the question, too abstract, so.
Do you really think D. Hunt did make a Taurus in Rhodesia?
I am interested to know because I think you never did built a Taurus.

(see post 94 page 4 and post 468 page 19 for a fast impression.)


Cees

Sorry UStik, I didn't say because the article said so. This version of events is from the Aeromodeller magazine, the RCM&E is less specific, but neither say which plan, nor by whom. It is mystery, but at the time it wasn't thought to be important, else someone would have recorded the information. The article is specific in that it says it was between flights while Ed was on his way to Africa, so with some research the date could be nailed quite specifically. It is interesting, that even at this date, there is intention for Topflight to kit the Taurus, and the RCM&E drawing is closer to the kit version than it is to Ed's model. Why didn't Ed have a plan to send to Dennis? So far we know that Ed's Taurus is different to the Myers (Original Taurus) and the Topflight version, so I guess he didn't have a plan of his own to send. Hence the 'brown paper plan/sketches'. Maybe?
Evan.

And you Evan, may I have your vote please?




I did see in post 976, you were healing from your “tunnelvision”.
Do you still think D. Hunt did built a Taurus in Rhodesia?
Try to find the real reason why it is told! (Especially when you cannot double check the fact! That's the reasom for looking for wheelprints!(LOL))

Cees

Cees, this is a question you must ask Dennis.
Evan.

Evan,


It is no question for me, I only want your opinion and help you if you want.

Cees

Cees, we have it on record that there were 19 Taurus' at the 1962 US Nats. Who knows how many others were built, flying, but not there? I find it difficult to believe that Dennis could NOT have built a Taurus. We know he already had an Orion, Orbit radio etc. the only thing he didn't have was the specific details of Eds long Taurus, which he got, he says, on brown paper and with a tape from Ed. The fact that he remembers such specific details only reinforces his account. We forget, but at that time Rhodesia was a member of the Commonwealth, one of the richest countries around, and you could get what ever you wanted, from wherever you wanted. Dennis' details are not to be dismissed out of hand, but to be added to our knowledge of the Taurus, and the history of the thing.
evan.

Edit; My problem is I think you cannot find the reason without my help, because that reason there was for a short period and disappeard

Cees

Sorry Cees, I don't understand what you are trying to say. If you want to know about Dennis and his Taurus, then ask him. I'm sure he will give you everything he remembers, and it may help or add to the history. Who knows, he may even have some photos from the trip still in his possession, perhaps a nudge from Kingaltair might help find some more info. Whatever, we must be open to what comes, and be ready to change our minds as more information comes to hand. And I should thank Duane for being more specific about his measuring datums, I can now match the models 'side by side' as it were.
Evan.

Evan,

You show me picture 1 and say: “I make big money with my work in the shop and that’s the reason I live in a villa with four floors! ”
What would happen when I ask: ”Evan is that really your home?”

Of course I do not ask and only if I doubt I do my double check, see picture 2.

Let it be clear, it is going about details, that picture, that Taurus on the picture, that moment in the past and that reason!!!
If you want a “step by step” program just as with the “Mixed up Taurusses” let me know, success.

Cees

Come on Cees, tell what you think and then defend it, as you once wrote here. We can stand it and will still surely disagree on some points. Besides it seems to me that you changed your mind and I don't know what you think just now.

To the Africa Taurus I like your offhanded opinion most that Dennis Hunt built the MAN / Top Flite Taurus. I could swear I see the two red tape stripes below the horizontal stabilizer on the picture with Dennis, and this model is the only Taurus with the Top Flite Pilot ever seen on pictures. Ed always used the other pilot, already on the Orion and later, only each painted differently.

And Dennis Hunt said to Duane that Ed worked directly with him as the Taurus was being designed, so that was 1961 when no plan existed yet and the brown paper was needed. The RCM&E people didn't mean a plan or plans of the model at all but what was planned for the Taurus (kitted, developed, ...). Maybe even Dennis Hunt later drew the sketch for Oct 1962 RCM&E. Anyway, Top Flite (residing in Chicago) was the driving force and needed (used) Ed for his ideas and as a figurehead winning contests, not for drawing or making kits.

The RCM&E plan and even more the MAN plan show the Taurus as it was planned by Top Flite, maybe differing from Ed's ideas in some points to make it more suited to "the average Joe" (quoted from Grid Leaks). All what was written and shown on pictures was meant to promote the Top Flite kit. And it was TF's interest to have as many top pilots fly the Taurus as possible, hence the early proliferation, even in (South) Africa. I only hope that Ed didn't choose the reeds Taurus in Genk for TF's sake.

Did you mean that? No, I'm quite sure you won't agree. QED.
(But there are some questions you could ask Dennis Hunt.)

UStik

[/quote]
(But there are some questions you could ask Dennis Hunt.)
[/quote]


Read post post 475 page 19 and 476 ,477 page 20,

In post 481 page 20 I write my last answer about the situation there was told there were three Taurusses!!:



Last interesting message 483 page 20.


“I will think all over,” and I did.

My golden rule in these situations is:
It takes two to lie — one to lie and one to listen.

It is important to remember this, Dennis Hunt never told me/us anything!
I like to keep it that way.
So that is the reason I do not ask and so I do not have to listen.

I do not have any questions and can finish my TAURUS CONSTRUCTION AND FLYING SCHEDULE (TFS) without any help!


Cees

OK Cees, that's understandable. But you shouldn't expect us others to follow you, particularly since you brought up again all the stuff that was discussed last year in the posts you quoted. And now you even used that L... word that was avoided so far. So don't expect your opinions to be very convincing. I'd rather prefer you'd play the detective game with us. We are all like the man from Mars who wonders what the red traffic lights might mean, if anything, while we all know that. If you figured something out it should be possible to say it neutrally. One reason we see some things but don't see their meaning could be their offensiveness. The usual solution in such cases is to search for interpretations that are natural for all - often a hard thing, but we should try.

One such problem I have is that I think the right fuse in the crate is Ed's original model but not the T2, not even bashed. In an earlier post I wondered if it could have been destroyed in a crash (after building the T2) and Ed kept the pilot. Currently I'm seeing ghosts (the TF ghost) and even wonder if Ed stashed the original model away to promote the TF version. Ed's silence about the model could mean that, but just as well he could have been afraid of mentioning a crash. I just don't know what I should believe.

And likely Dennis Hunt didn't say anything wrong, and what he said may not contradict anything you see. Problems arise when you take your interpretation (your meaning) for the real thing and others have a different view. Just express what you see, how you interpret it, and wait what the others make of it. That's the only way to influence the process of thinking and making history.

UStik,


Let it be clear that the partly bolded above, "At this point you are either calling Dennis a liar" in my post 992, is quoted from post 477 page 20 from Duane Wilson, see below.


It is going about details that even D. Hunt apparently didn't see ( appeared identical! ), as many others we see later.
I have more than enough info from my pictures.
It is going also about that picture, that Taurus on the picture, that moment in the past and that reason!!!

So, no questions for me, I only repair history and do not want to make it. (last of your own text (top) first quote enlarged, Italic!)


Cees

Sorry, wrong word, should be writing history. (It was late.)

Got you, but it's a pity that you are not able to explain which details in which pictures mean what, at least not to me, and maybe to the others, too. I'm like the man from Mars who sees the traffic light but doesn't attach importance to it. Why not convince me?

Maybe I'm more flexible / easier than you, so let's try a compromise (another interpretation of texts and pictures). Why not assume Ed and Dennis really built identical models? Both models had to look like Ed's personal plane, so Ed sent an address label and they agreed on using the TF pilot because Dennis was able to get only this one. Both models had even the long fuse opening below the fin and the hatch with the two tape strips.

Now the two models in the crate are obviously different (for us), maybe Dennis was amazed how equal Ed's and his models looked and that's what he said to Duane (or what he meant). Besides, it would be coherent that nowhere just Ed's Taurus is mentioned but Ed's Contest Taurus, as if there was another Taurus, likely the TF or kit Taurus.

Just a thought, but would raise the question where Dennis' model is got to. Either way, you could ask him if he built the TF Taurus and Ed took it along (and he overlooked small differences of the crate models) or where his model is got to (if it was identical to Ed's) or if there's something wrong with these scenarios/assumptions. He would have all options to answer and you to interpret, but no risk.

[/quote]
(But there are some questions you could ask Dennis Hunt.)
[/quote]
Read post post 475 page 19 and 476 ,477 page 20,

In post 481 page 20 I write my last answer about the situation there was told there were three Taurusses!!:

My golden rule in these situations is:
It takes two to lie — one to lie and one to listen.

It is important to remember this, Dennis Hunt never told me/us anything!
I like to keep it that way.
So that is the reason I do not ask and so I do not have to listen.

I do not have any questions and can finish my TAURUS CONSTRUCTION AND FLYING SCHEDULE (TFS) without any help!
Cees
[/quote]
************************************************** ***************************
Let me get this straight...you want to "take a vote" to see if others think what Dennis Hunt said earlier in the thread was actually true or not. Cees, what are you thinking...as if "voting" would somehow change things. I can see you doubting some detail, but you are saying he never even built a plane when he said he did. This is not something that is a minor detail that could possibly be forgotten. And why would you deliberately bring it up again after it was discussed previously? I can't believe someone like you is "for real".

You say you don't see three Taurus(s) in the Mr K article? You see two in the crate, and you see one with Dennis posed next to his Taurus. Do you need to have a picture with Dennis holding his plane while looking down into the crate with the two models in it? You have to see three Taurus models in the same picture? Did it ever occur to you that maybe there might be three Taurus models on that tour because Dennis said there were? I guess not because it can't be proved with blue and red lines by means of Photoshop.

So you say Dennis never said anything to you personally...I guess this means that I was the person who either mistakenly or deliberately distorted the facts you happen to disagree with. Is THAT what you're saying? Either way I don't appreciate the inference.

When we started on this search for the "true history" at the beginning of this thread, most of us had an open mind and were willing to search all the evidence that came along for the details, and follow wherever they led. It seems to me you instead had an agenda...to convince everyone else that what you think is true...everything was fine with you as long as everyone agreed with everything you said. Personally I have no agenda; I want to know what REALLY HAPPENED regardless of WHICH THEORY IS CONFIRMED. My integrity means something to me. If I am proven wrong in the process, I would be only too happy to admit it to you and everyone else. The END RESULT and the TRUE HISTORY is all that matters to me.

Saturday I called Dennis again just to make sure that I correctly understood everything he told me earlier. I didn't say anything to him about what you think, I just asked the same questions as before. He said he worked with Ed starting about October or earlier in 1961 to arrange the Africa trip. Originally, due to the cost and difficulty associated with shipping large bulky items to Africa back in 1962, the idea was to just bring Ed down; that was the reason for Dennis building a duplicate of Ed's new plane, and the start of the audio tapes and sketches. (BTWremember that Ed himself said in the " Mister K" article that he exchanged "numerous tapes and letters" with Dennis... the two independent accounts agree). According to Dennis, they went back and forth every couple weeks or so. Eventually as time went on, in one of those tapes, it was decided it might be feasible and would be best for Ed to have his own planes and equipment. Meanwhile Dennis finished up his plane, deliberately trying to copy Ed's plane as closely as possible, based on what Ed told him by means of the sketches and tapes he sent him , (there were no formal plans of any sort in the fall of 1961 as we already know).

One new bit of information that came out was that Dennis believes Ed began sketches for the Taurus in the summer of 1961, and that Ed was, (naturally), ahead of him in construction, but both planes were built sometime in the fall of 1961.

Other questions
I asked if Ed brought with him, (or sent) plans of any kind during the building, and he said "no".
He said both of Ed's planes looked "identical" to him, (though we are pretty sure there are subtle differences between them in dimensions as Ed never built two planes the same). Dennis also said the same thing at one point. For example, we know one was lighter than the other.

After talking with Dennis for awhile, I told him there was one prominent member of the RCU Taurus thread who actually said that in reality he, (Dennis) never built a Taurus for the Africa tour. At that point he laughed out loud, and told me to tell anyone who doubted that to write him. He is a man in his 80s who isn't interested in argueing points by e-mail on a RCU thread.

Anyone on this thread is invited to write Dennis Hunt to say hello, or if they have honest questions.

[email protected]

Cees, we have had what I thought were honest disagreements, but never once did I question your love of the Taurus or your honesty. I never questioned the truthfulness of anything you said. I respect and have tried to follow as best I can your opinions. I appreciated the many important details you pointed out to us, particularly during the early stages of this thread, but my appreciation ends when you either question the honesty of an eye-witness who organized the whole tour, and was there for every bit of it, or you question my intelligence and ability to relate what Dennis told me. I have better things to do than distort the record to try to prove a point in this thread. My task, (and I think the others would agree) is to try to add information to the thread for the benefit of the history to find out what happened. I could care less if you don't accept what is said...you are the loser... not me because you are the one denying the truth of what happened in favor of you OWN set of facts.

You certainly have the right to believe anything you want to...but if you reject first-hand, eyewitness evidence, then you make a LOUSY historian. Believe your own so-called "history" if you want...I feel sorry for you...for your whole attitude.

Possibly forgetting details is one thing, but the "bottom line" to me is this......that Dennis said he built a Taurus, and you have the nerve to say "...you never did built a Taurus, (your grammar).", because some of what he says doesn't support your pre-conceived conclusions.

************************************************** **************

I have several new pieces of information I would like to discuss...but not in this atmosphere. I would ask others to stop debating this topic further.

Duane

Cees- MEAN WHAT YOU SAY AND SAY WHAT YOU MEAN. It is hard enough to try to decipher your meaning without all the oblique reference to "The road to Rome" "Darwin and the Beagle" and "...4-story villas" to mention only a few

Hey guys, here's a video I shot at the 09 WRAM show. Ed's Taurus was on display at the VR/CS booth. Amazing how nice and new this 1962 Nats winner looks like today!

http://blogs-modelairplanenews.com/m...i_1962_Taurus/

GY

CG-

Thanks so much for taking the video, posting it for others, and making it known to us. I was part of the group of VR/CS members who pooled our individual resources in a united effort to save the plane for the modeling public here in the US. Personally, I was a "cheerleader" and fundsraiser for the purchase. What Terry didn't mention was that he was our "point man" actually making the
bid on eBay. A bunch of us were all "live" on line watching the bidding, and watched the price shoot up over $1,000 in the last 5 seconds. Terry expertly timed his bid, and the result is there to see.

The original Kazmirski Taurus which has been the subject of this thread since the first day it was noticed as being up for bid, is now making the rounds at different shows such as this one. The rest of this flying season, it will also travel to the Toledo show and some VR/CS events, culminating in the ceremony where the plane will be donated to the AMA Museum in Muncie in September of this year.

Ed's other plane, (also discussed at length in this thread), was purchased privately by myself and a partner from Florida. We are currently restoring the plane to flying condition, and it will appear at both VR/CS and SPA events as well. While it will be flyable, we will be very careful just when, where, and under what conditions it will be demonstrated. My hope is to video the plane's flight and post it like you have here.

Thanks again for sharing this with us. I'd love you to come to the DeBolt VR/CS meet in Florida on March 14-15 (where it will be displayed for the first time), and make a similar video.

Duane

Duane,



Is this you official new reason?

(BTW post 1000)

Cees