I just got a Chaos 60 from Bluejay and want to put old springair retracts in it. However, from the plans it does not appear there is enough room in the nose for the steering gear and a 12oz tank. Any suggestions how to modify or alter or any way to get it all together. Installing the mains in the wing will be no problem, just the steering nose gear. The fuse is narrow and thin so servos will have to be staggered and the air tank may have to go behind the wind bolt down. Haven't figured it all out yet but in the mean time any suggestions from anyone who has put retracts in this kit. Thanks.

This is a case where a modern, heavy schneurle two-stroke engine may come to the rescue. Something like a Rossi .60 or .61. Why? Because then you can put your fuel tank in the compartment over the wing, along with your air tank for the retracts, move your servos to the rear of the model and place your receiver wherever convenient. There should be room left in the radio compartment over the wing. You might even have to build a battery box into the bottom of the fuselage immediately behind the wing, but that is no problem. The trick is to lay out everything so that you do not need to add lead ballest anywhere to obtain proper balance.

I've built and flown this model. Mine was powered by an early ASP .61 FSR ABC. Lots of power at high revs. A sweet flying model that settles into a nose high attitude on approach all by itself.


Ed Cregger

You could make a taildragger out of it. Nose gear problem goes away then.

FB

The Super Kaos is, in essence, a redesigned Kaos for use with retracts. It will be a tight fit getting nose retract gear in the Kaos.

A Hayes Slimline tank will help give you more room:

http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXK835&P=7

These tanks date back to the days of long slender fuselages.

David

Ed, thanks for info. I plan to use an OS 61FX I have on hand. I have not yet decided whether to pipe it or use standard silencer. That's a thought putting the fuel tank back over wing center fuse. No problem with aleron servo as I will be using individual servos out in the wing. My only question would there be a problem drawing fuel that far to the engine? Would a Rossi draw better then an OS? Maybe changing the carb to a pumper might solve the draw problme, what do you think? I am using a 2.4 receiver so it can go almost anywhere, even behind wing. How about mounting the tank behind the nose retract, but would it still draw fuel ok? As to tail dragger FB, I did that with the 40 size none retract about 3 years ago, but this one I wanted to use the trike retract gear.

Thanks rainedave, I wanted the Super Chaos but bluejay was out and would be for the next 6 plus weeks. Waiting and then as slow as I build it would be mid to late summer before I could get it in the air. At the same time they indicate it is a tail dragger and I want the trike. I could convert the utter Chaos to a tail dragger because there is no problem with mains, just the nose gear.

I'm sure you can get the retract in the nose. 8178 found some 3-views of their retracts and used them to place over his plans so he could decide how to fit them in his Blue Angel. A scale side view of the retract would help you position stuff so it fits. You will definitely need a pump if you put the tank back over the wing.

David

Yes, I forgot to mention that you would need a Cline or Iron Bay fuel pressure regulator in order to use the fuel tank mounted over the wing.

I put a 12 oz. Sullivan tank in my Utter Chaos and barely had room for enough foam rubber to damp the vibrations. A belly mount nose gear would be one solution. Robart makes those. Or, like others have said, just build it with conventional retractable landing gear. If I went that route, I would obtain a set of foam cores for the wings. That is a much stronger and longer lasting solution than a built up wing.


Ed Cregger

Thanks Ed, a cline or iron bay fuel pressure regulator is a prodict I have no knowledge about. Where would I obtain either and would you recommend one over the other. I have some old retracts which I think are spring air. They were my sons about 10 years ago and they seem to work ok. It takes about 1 3/8" for the stearing gear nose. That only leaves about 1 1/2" height in the nose. As to Robart, they do not mention "belly mount" there is the standard rail mount and fire wall mount. The ones I have are the rail mount. Is that what you mean "belly mount". Over the last almost 30 years I have built a lot of kits but never a pattern. I am thinking about entering the elderly pattern group, if they have some meets around Okey City.

-


Yep, I'll bet the rail mount is the same thing as the belly mount (Rom-Air term) that I'm referring to. While I've never used Spring Air gear, I've heard so much good about them over the years, I'd use them without hesitation.

The Cline Regulator and the Iron Bay Regulator are produced by two separate groups of folks. One or both copies the Walbro carburetor's diaphgram fuel regulating method, but doesn't include the carb body that such regulators are usually built into. Where to get them is another matter. I bought my last two several years ago. The first ones I bought were Cline units, the latter two were Iron Bay (less expensive). Perhaps some of the other readers can fill us in on the present status of said units and where to purchase them.

Rainedave is usually right on the money with his suggestions. I would pay attention to his comments, as well as all others that have contributed here.


Ed Cregger

I finished my Super Chaos (short kit from Lazer Works) and built from the original Bridi plans and installed the old B&D pneumatic retracts. All I did was place a 1/4" thicker block under the engine and tank compartment and did more sanding. I was able to really round out the nose section and fair in tht spinner very nicely. The nose wheel when retracted sticks out into the airstream approximately 3/8". Other than that it a good set-up and no problem. I also have a 12oz standard Dubro tank and a floor between the tank and retract compartment. The nose gear is a belly mount set up and not a firewall mount.

Orlando

Thanks Crashlander I think your idea is what I had in mind and the way I am thinking of going. By the way where did you get the B&D retracts. I am not familiar with that brand. I have some old springair but I need a control valve,which will probably go with a robart. I have robarts in my P-47 and Ultra Sport. Had these springair laying around and thought would use them in the new chaos, if I can get them to work and you have given me the answer. Thanks.

B&D retracts are about 1960+ vintage and are no longer made. The only set I have is in imaculate condition thus I using on my Super Chaos, prior they were on my former MK Arrow (sob, sob).
Getting control valve should not be a problem and springairs should not be a problem.

I had to hollow out the thicker block I installed quiter a bit in order to clear the steering cable and let the standoff clear the surrounding areas.

Crashlander.

Crashlander,

B&D Retracts are still in production in both mechanical & pneumatic versions. Please send a PM for details.

Leo, aka glockguy

Here are a couple of links that may be helpful...
cline regulator:
http://www.billsroom.com/pcfs/produc...uelsysdesc.htm

Here is the link I had for the Iron Bay regulator but it's not working at the moment?? I know it use to work but haven't used it in a long time..Not sure if it's a temporary or perminate thing??
http://www.ironbaymodelcompany.com/i...es/Page438.htm
http://www.ironbaymodelcompany.com/

Webra has one too..I have one of these for my Speed 61 which will go in my Curare:
http://webra-engines.com/motor.php?f...ESSORIES〈=EN

A decent write up on the Sato website with an overview of pumps and regulators:
http://saito-engines.info/body_pumps.html


B&D Retracts:
http://bdretracts.com/

Thanks to all you guys for all the great info in helping to turn a sows ear into a silk purse. Although I have not finally decided how to handle the fuel tank with the nose retract, current plans are a slimline 12oz tank and extend the heigth of the nose to accoumidate the tank and gear. I don't think it will be over 1/2". According to the plans the nose is 3" deep and retract takes up just over 1" I don't think the slim line will be over 2 1/2" so it all should fit, tounge in cheek!!! I'll keep all posted how it comes out, whether it stays a sows ear or a beautiful silk purse.

Somewhere in my vast knowledge of retracts is to make the nose wheel swivel so the nose gear wheel will go flat in the fuse. Jet Hangar Hobbies in their f 86 kit has a description and illustrations on how to do it. If you know someone with a set of old plans, you could see if it would work for you. Picture of my Dirty Birdy with Hobbico
mechanical retracts. Nose wheel sticks out about an inch

Hal Peters
Old time pattern flyer

Hal
Did you ever live in CT ?

Hi Chuck
I Have been also looking at these regulators and was interested in the Webra version. Did you get any instructions/Diagram for setup? I see that it uses silencer pressure to regulate the fuel. Have you had a chance to run it? I understand that all three do basically the same thing but the webra and iron bay seem more refined. I'll be using one or the other on a Jett RE in the Atlanta and Beetle.

Yes I did. From 1970 to 2000. I went bigtime into jets from 1990 on. Just got back into the old time pattern stuff last year. I lived in Norwalk on and off during that time.
Hal Peters

I have found the B&D site, but no email address is given for inquiries. Any info in regards to an email address?

Thanks,

Hal
PM Sent

I have not run it yet..I do have the instructions but haven't read through them..Haven't even opened the package till now..he he

I could probably scan them if you wanted a copy?? I have to get to bed now but sometime this week I can do it..

I thought you just used crankcase pressure but like I say I've not studied it yet...

It's pretty small..Here are some photos..

Chuck

Thanks Chuck
When you get a chance. Can you also get the weight?

a King Kobra plan shows an actual spring air retract nose gear installation. that would be a good place to get measurements. i can post a photo if needed.