Do any of you know anything about a Caravel model? There is one ARF Graupner is selling ($229) Their ad states it's a 1960's plane, thus legal for SPA. Mickey knows nothing about the plane and can't approve it until he is given more information. It sort of looks like a Sr. Falcon but much sleeker.

Skip,

In 1963 World Championships in Genk Belgium, Mister Bignon did fly the Caravelle, kit model, and placed 18th.
See the red square.

Cees

Edit: Original name is Caravelle, look on the right side wing!

That's got to be a Falcon with a tapered wing and stab and a nose cowl. Looks identical from here.

David.

Objection, David! You could call Fritz Bosch's model a Falcon look-alike as well. In fact, the Caravelle (French name, you will know) was Graupner's top-selling aerobat till the advent of Kwik-Fli Mk III in 1968 (and even a few years later). They are bringing out their old goodies again, now as ARFs. Unfortunately, I can't attach a picture right now because my brother has our old catalogs.

Caravelle was the competition model of Gustav Sämann, maybe kind of a German Kazmirski. He competed at the 1962 Worlds in England with his Caravelle (no 7 in the list below) and - I'm quite sure - at the first worlds 1960 in Bern (placing second behind Kaz). Dieter Meier, who knew Sämann well, built the new ARF with a dummy engine and an electric motor behind (picture).

The German vintage model society specifies the year 1961 and 1800mm (71") wingspan.

Hi,

I have some old Graupner cataloges, in 1963 catalog (18 FS) it is listed (see grayscale picture below). It is possible it was already in Graupner catalog 1962 (17FS) but I do not have that so I do not know. In 1961 catalog Caravelle was not listed as a kit yet. I checked also in some newer Graupner catalog from 1967 (20 FS) and in that catalog it was a color photo of the orginal Caravelle, see pictures below (two pages). All pictures below are from Graupner cataloges in German so maybe you do not understand what is writtenbut the pictures are nice to look at. I once saw an orginalGraupner Caravelle NIB kit from the 1960th on ebay and it was sold for 400 Euro = US $540 (expensive...).

/Bo

He, he...sustained

It seems like every decade has it's period of "very similar" models. I just remarked that that was the case for the '80's (at least Hanno's models) in another thread, it seems to me true back in the 60's and definitely true today in F3A. I think what has sprung in the last 10-20 years is the vast growth of easily built (bought?) scale and semi-scale models. This has enriched our modeling options.

But I must be too young as it still looks like a Falcon to me... (I flew plenty of those in the '80's).

David.

Here's some more info. The Caravelle is from the early 60's.

FB

Thanks guys. I knew you all would come to my rescue on this one.

Hi,</p>

This will convince it is SPA legal. From American Modeler March/April 1963, article from "FAI radioplane championship" 1962 (I madePDF files below). There is a picture on Caravelle with Gustav S&auml;mann who designed and flew this plane. Gustav S&auml;mann placed 2nd in 1960 WC after Ed Kazmirski by the way but I do not know what model Gustav used then.

/Bo</p>

You could as well say you can't tell Chinese people apart because they all look the same. (Nothing against Chinese people, but for me it's really hard to tell them apart, I'm just learning...) Every period of time has it's "type" of models (as well as cars, ...), and maybe only if you grew up in that period you see all different models, but if they are vintage for you they all look the same. You must have quite a desistance to see all current F3A planes the same (or current cars). I do, but in my case that desistance comes just from age.

Should be a validation for SPA, but won't make a competitive model out of Caravelle. I mentioned above that Sämann was second at the 1960 WC and can add that he likely used the Caravelle prototype. Just as likely, his second place prompted Graupner to kit the model (like later the Kwik-Fli Mk III). Seems they brought it out only 1963 when the new Variophon/Varioton R/C (with Bellamatic II and ServoAutomatic servos) was successful in the market and Caravelle was redesigned for it (as shown in the drawing FreeBird posted). It was a model for bang-bang R/C (the Graupner R/C had no reeds).

An interesting side note: Graupner has a nice picture at his 75th anniversary website showing Dr. Walt Good, Bob Dunham, and Ed Kazmirski visiting Graupner on their way back home from Bern. Ed has one of the new Variophon transmitters hanging around his neck and seems to check it thoroughly, but obviously he kept using Dunham's Orbit. I guess Graupner didn't kit the Orion because that was Top Flite claim, so they kitted Caravelle instead to have a top model to boost the new R/C. Only with Phil Kraft they got in agreement for a Kwik-Fly (and Ugly Stik) license.

Hi,

SPA legal ARF's:

I want to add that there has now in 2010 came out an old classic European F3A machine again, but now as ARF:

M&auml;xi (kitted by German manufacturer Robbe).

It was orginally designed by Heinz Els&auml;sser who also wasin German F3A team for World Championship 1969 that was held in Bremen Germany. So this new Robbe M&auml;xi ARF should qualify for SPA also. Some pictures below from old Robbe catalog (1970 and 1977) and also some photos of orginal M&auml;xi drawing that I have.
Orginal Robbe M&auml;xi kit was an all balsa kit and later it was also a version with glass fuselage and foam wing-stab (it was named M&auml;xi F) and a version with glass fuselage with traditional built up balsa wing-stab (M&auml;xi FH).

Video of the new Robbe M&auml;xi ARF here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SL-SDGKyxXY

/Bo

Could you post a link to the photo of the US team visiting Graupner?

Thanks, Alan

Not really, but try this: Go to the [link=http://www.75-jahre-graupner.de/]75th anniversary website[/link] and just wait till you're redirected to a new window with "running" catalog pictures. Click on one of them to get a new display with a vertical timeline on the left. Move the actual year marker to 1961 (with the mouse). In the slide show starting in the bottom right corner of the window, it's the 7th picture I think, you will recognise it even though it's tiny.

The text reads (my translation):

"The winning American 1960 R/C-model world championship team chose their route home from ZĂĽrich via Kirchheim/Teck to visit the Graupner factory and catch up on the latest regarding the German model building products. (From left to right: Dr. Walt Good, A.M.A. president; Bob Dunham, multi-year American R/C-model champion; Edward Kazmirski, winner of the 1960 world championship in ZĂĽrich.)"

Other pictures there show the then actual Bellaphon transmitters, but the one Ed is holding looks boxy and not rounded, so I think it's a prototype Variophon. All a bit strange since it came out only 1962 (and pictures are shown for that year) and the WC was 1960, but they arranged the picture in between.

Added a screenshot. They seem to wear the same shirts as on a picture shot in Bern ([link=http://www.modelflight.regheath.com/mf137/airspaceset.htm]here[/link], scroll down). Maybe the Graupner people selecting the pictures for the anniversary website didn't know much about that picture and the caption is just nonsense. Maybe Graupner had their products in Bern to boost them.

Edit: have to correct me, must be a Bellaphon because the antenna is on its left side (Variophon had antenna centered).

It is my intention to fly something unique in the SPA antique event in the fall. That is : pre 1965. They banned electrics which is a shame because this plane would be a great subject with some modifications. Hopefully there will be more choices soon. The ARF 's make life easier because, as was previously mentioned, this plane is really not competitive in todays environment. It would be fun to fly an "oldster" just for nostalgia. Not having to build one is a plus.

In that case, you could follow Bo's suggestion and build the new Mäxi ARF. Both, the Caravelle and Mäxi ARFs, are prepared for glow engine or electric drive, see pics above and at the Graupner website for the Caravelle. Seems you could even interchange the drive later. Good luck!

Thanks for the link to 75th anniversary Graupner website, lots of interesting material there. Thanks for the translation of the small image of the US team visiting Graupner (pity it is so small)

Alan

Mmm... not quite. At least not for me - I'm good with faces (not with names). But yes, every period does indeed have it's crop of similar designs. Case in point, when did Goldberg design the Falcon? Before or after doesn't really matter. One or the other was influenced by the design concepts of the time.

But to paraphrase Ray's wife (hopefully Ray won't mind), which is probably quite common among the "less RC enlightened", Hanno's Sensation is just a Super Sicroly Mark 12 (give or take)... Not that I agree.

David.

David, your way,

Caravelle ? It must be a plane of the period of much noise!

I always work with fact and date, not face and era, see the difference, my first post (2) of this thread and the added picture now.

Cees

Added:

I hope you know they did not use mufflers in 1963!


You write in post 18
But to paraphrase Ray's wife (hopefully Ray won't mind), which is probably quite common among the "less RC enlightened", Hanno's Sensation is just a Super Sicroly Mark 12 (give or take)... Not that I agree.

Take a close look!
http://www.trentonrcflyers.com/pattern/patternt2.htm
Taurus, Photo from RFJ (RCU ID), Added 8-12-09

I guess it's a case of "form follows function" with a dash of "follow my leader"

These models were designed for one purpose and as each new FAI schedule came along subtle changes would be made to best fly the required manoeuvres.

Looking at the full size world, I often think that Boeing and Airbus are using the same design program.

Ray

Ray

Take a close look!

http://www.trentonrcflyers.com/pattern/patternt2.htm
Taurus, Photo from RFJ (RCU ID), Added 8-12-09


I know about 13 variants of “Taurus” and none of them is a Nimbus.

Cees

Perhaps you should look at

[link]http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_8913724/mpage_13/key_/tm.htm[/link] Post #315

I'm not responsible for other peoples mistakes - I make enough of my own.

Ray

Cees,

I'm convinced that there is a more serious miss-communication between Dutch and English than I first thought. I confess, I really don't follow your train of thought or how one thing relates to another in your posts.

But speaking of faces and eras, as a good scientist I always follow the scientific principle - emotions, expressions and periods... using facts and dates is like assuming a square cow. After all, geometry really is Gaussian (or Reimannian, if you prefer) not Cartesian.

How's that for joining in the folds of confusion?

David.

Ray,
I did not write you make a mistake and I did give CAsniffer already a message.
I only want to show most people do not see the differences, they look at too many planes.
Because I am only interested in Taurus, it was possible for me to show you Ed Kaz did mix up his two planes of the crate in 1963, Belgium, Genk. You know, the step program!
Even with the same paint scheme I recognize the differences because I know the individual (Taurus) planes and moment in development scheme, not only models.
Cees

Skip, the Caravelle might be quite well suited. I found a German [link=http://www.graupner.de/filerootdir/downloads/20090225114112_9388_graupner_caravelle__fmt.pdf]review[/link] which has many pictures showing engine or electric motor installation. Besides, it says Graupner modified the wings to plug-in construction with less dihedral (compared to the original) and modified airfoil and ailerons as well. The review says the ailerons are even crisp now so they set 40% expo. Knife-edge is possible with nearly full power and rudder, but the plane turns out. It's set up quite neutral like a modern model but lands trainer-like. The owners love it. Found a rather simple [link=http://www.rcmovie.de/video/a860cf8e33b114369b92/Erstflug-Graupner-Caravelle]video[/link], but better than nothing. And more pictures [link=http://www.rc-network.de/forum/showthread.php?t=121334]here[/link].