Old wise and skillful
 

Okey guy's.

I have been thinking alot about this topic, I'm a member in a small Swedish modelairplane club with a lot of older dudes.
And with all this new hype of buying ARF's the skills of building your own plane is getting lost.
But we are a few younger guy's out there who wants to learn.
For example.

*Sheeting foamwings.
*fibreglassing wings and fuses.
*Paint.
*Messuring proper thrust, wing and stabilizer Incidence

But how about a locked topic here so the older guy's can put up information to use who don't have a clue[:o]
This is a world wide problem and I will take this up at our club meeting also, we don't want this to become a lost art.

Thanks, and take care.

RE: Old wise and skillful
 

There is a series of booklets on construction techniques, published by RCM, a few decades ago. I'm sure that these booklets are still around and available used. They contained exactly the kind of information that you are looking for. Keeping an eyeball on RCU's classifieds and the 'Bay would be a good idea. If I still had mine I would give them to you.


Ed Cregger

RE: Old wise and skillful
 

I think that you have a great idea there. I had a ten year break from R/C. When I went to the hobby shop to pick up some stuff, I asked "Where are all of the kits?". The stock consists now mostly of China ARF's. Today's "Modeler" is really an airplane buyer. Arf's have their place, especially in the trainer market. I have a few, they were timesavers for me.
I recently overheard a conversation at the local flying field wherein a gentleman was telling the other that he had bought the RTF version of his plane instead of the ARF version because he didn't think he could handle putting the hinges in. Pathetic. You are correct, the basic skills that we older hands take for granted are rather scarce today. Thank goodness we have the internet, and sites like this one to communicate and make these skills available for all.

RE: Old wise and skillful
 

I'm not much of a handyman, but balsa doesn't really require 'woodworking' skills. It cuts like butter.

Tom

RE: Old wise and skillful
 

Further to Ed's post, another book I can recommend is called "Building a Pattern Airplane" by Bruce Thompson and Don Atwood.

I have the 4th edition published in 1999. I don't know if there have been further editions or if it is still available. The author's e-mail is (was) [email protected]

It has "build threads" for a typical all wood model (Typhoon) and a typical glass/foam model (Prophecy) as well as chapters on engines and radios.

Well worth having if you can find a copy.

Ray

RE: Old wise and skillful
 

Wow, don't even get me started. Try being a builder in a section of the hobby where there aren't many builders....you come across every personality type there is.

I can totally relate to the guy who has a zillion dollars but no time, and he'd rather pay to have his super duper model because he likes to fly, but not build. if you take these guys out of the equation, we are MUCH smaller in numbers. I always wondered though, if we HAD to build like the old days, how many of us would there be? I agree that as a modeler, those were better times. The field wasn't as full as today, and every plane had it's own personality. There were the hack planes that were crooked and ugly and barely flyable, but the guys that built them were still very proud of them. Then you had the average planes that flew well and looked decent. THEN you had the REAL jewels. You know the ones....gleaming in the sunlight, hand rubbed, not a spot on them, when it came out of the car everyone on the field came over to drool....

All of this I can respect, understand and relate to. Now let me tell you what I ran into, and what I can NOT deal with.

People that think because they have a few dllars, and you agree to build them a plane, you are thier slave...or b*tch. They have NO concept of what it takes to build a competetive competition model, and do not understand why you can't drop everything in your life and spend 24 hours a day 7 days a week on thier plane alone. You have no time to eat, no time to sleep, no time for family, they think that for a few dollars they own you. And not if but WHEN something doesn't work out exactly like they want, they have the right to degrade you and talk smack, and pee upon your reputation. if you're sick, too bad. if someone in your family dies, too bad. If you spend 4-5 days straight without sleep to try and get thier plane done and you end up taking about one day longer due to utter exhaustion, too bad, you suck and are somehow "screwing them".

Trouble is, you can't distinguish this guy from the others until it's far too late. And he'll destroy you in the process. Thankfully he's a rare breed.

Hence why I don't build for hire anymore, ever, no way, no how, let them buy ARFs and THAT's why I'm glad they're out there. because they wouldn't just go away, they'd just find someone else to harass. It's obviously in thier nature. trust me on this one.

Now I build for me and a few others that I know well and they know ME well, and that's all. I don't charge them much of anything and I like it that way. This way it's still fun. This way it's still modeling. When they win a trophy I share in thier happiness. But I will never build a plane for someone who has never built one themselves ever again. With a couple of noticable exceptions, but they have a proven history with me already.

So to the topic of this thread (sorry needed to vent LOL) I do my best to share every technique I know. Look in the regular pattern forums under the Black Magic build threads, pretty much everything you need to know is already there, but some of them are thousands of posts long. I love build threads because every time I do one, someone learns something and appreciates the time and effort. I love reading other's build threads for the same reason, I learn something every time. It's like paying it forward. I used to get my enjoyment out of just building my own stuff. Now I get it from many different angles. Most noticably, when someone else builds a plane that I designed, completes the project successfully, and then flies it to trophies in a contest somewhere. Does it get any better? not for me it doesn't.

I dunno maybe that sounds self indulgent. I suppose it is to an extent, and trust me a few people hate me for it. but without exception they seem to be of the type I described above, because they just don't "get it". The core of RC planes is modeling...it shares just as much if not more enjoyment and achievement as flying. They are related but different. To those that have never built thier own plane, I think they are missing a HUGE part of the enjoyment of this hobby. What happened to the kids glueing model P-51s together in thier bedroom floor, or the dining room table covered in newspaper? What happened to the kids glueing sticks together and covering them with tissue and flying them? What happened to the kid out on the garage with Dad sanding on a new plane, learning how to mix epoxy, glueing his fingers together with CA, getting half stoned off of orange ambroid and T pins? (LOL) For that matter, what happened to kids going outside and doing anything PERIOD???

Now let me tell you the good news my brothers. We are not alone, and we are growing. Look around. When I started making wood/foam kits for modern pattern competition a couple years ago, people said I was nuts. I was wasting my time, nobody builds, and DEFINITELY nobody wants a wood plane. I had NO idea what I was getting into. Now a few hundred planes later, can I laugh yet? Well, not really but....Honestly I believed them at first. But then it seemed like every time one showed up at a contest, I got a phone call or 2 the following Monday or Tuesday. The interest is there. Then it swelled fast....really in hindsight too fast to keep up with. After a breakdown or 2 I managed. LOL It was apparently enough that a top level sponsored FAI pilot felt the need to go online here under anonymous names and try to slander and destroy me, and others. (I'm sure there was a personal element to it, this guy is a real piece of work). Until then I always wondered if I was doing this all wrong. Now I am convinced I MUST be doing something right by serving a need that isn't supposed to exist.

My point? We're out here, and we're growing daily. Check out Mark Hunt's insight and Pentathlon, and you haven't seen anything until you've seen Harrison's new 2 meter wood/foam kit bipe. Some days it feels like an all out war. Some days it really is/was. And there is probably more to come, but hopefully not. We're steadily making progress though, and it's mostly due to forums like this, guys like us, who just are not going to go away and admit defeat by the Chinese ARFs. they have thier place, and we WILL have ours. There is currently a grass roots groundswell that we haven't seen in decades. Notice places like Tower re-introducing kits? If someone wasn't asking for them they wouldn't be making them.

Some fear this economy will be the end for us all. I vehemently disagree. If I recall the 30s were some of the most active modeling years in history, am I wrong? Nope it'll just change....hopefully for the better, as people have less money and more time, and need the distraction from every day life again.

But then again who knows, I could be totally wrong. but I hope not. We just need to keep doing what we do, and be even more open to sharing and helping others. the ARFs aren't going anywhere, but neither are we. I hope we can continue to move this forward again until people stop looking at our planes and thinking "I could never do that", and it changes to "I want to learn to do that".

This forum in particular holds some of the most accomplished and gifted modelers in model aviation. The other place is scale if you want to see some sick modeling skills. The difference is they pay MUCH more attention to detail, while we pay much more attention to the overall picture and the flying qualities. if a scale model actually gets off the ground, it's good enough. That's never good enough for us, we want the total package. We pay ridiculous (but necessary) attention to alignment, weight, engineering, symmetry, that sort of thing. the scale guys are natural born engineers and are the poster children for OCD. Which is why sooner or later I want to get around to a couple of HUGE scale projects. I have a Ziroli P-38 in particular that I think I could do some innovative justice to. But first, I need a bigger shop LOL

Pay it forward gents....

-Mike

RE: Old wise and skillful
 

According to Bruce it's out of print with no plans to ever release enother. Trust me, I twisted his arm almost out of socket. The co-author posts in the regular pattern forum under the name "woodie".

That is one heck of a book, I have a copy myself. Many of the techniques I use were taken from that book, and either expanded on, or I still use them today.

One day I may do up a series of DVDs covering everything from start to rubbing out the clear. I have already thought about it but I'd need 6 months to a year of time with a lot of hard work. But I think maybe people would appreciate it? I dunno, just a thought.

-Mike

RE: Old wise and skillful
 

Mike...

How can I put it...? That is deep !!

It couldn't have been said any better and I feel, despite our undoubtedly different modeling backgrounds, very much the same way.

On a related subject, I'm sending you a PM.

RE: Old wise and skillful
 

i'm ready for any economic slowdown. i have enough wood, glue and fiberglass to build several models. i even sold most of my kits. there are so many plans available here, it's a matter of choosing which one for my next project.

david

RE: Old wise and skillful
 

Martenson,
I like the idea of sharing building skills to people who want to build from a kit or scratch. It is a dying skill/art and should be preserved so there will be a market for kit cutters and kit designers.
I have learned a lot from following the large number of build threads here on RCU. Putting them all in one place would definitely be advantageous.
Thanks
CAsniffer
[link=http://www.trentonrcflyers.com/pattern/pattern1.htm]Classic pattern plane database[/link]

RE: Old wise and skillful
 

Mike. I concur with doxilla. Well said and deep.

I experienced the same thing KLXMASTER14 did after a 20 year break. Walked into the LHS and could not believe it. Barfs everwhere. Hobby Shack, before they became Hobby Clones, used to have a great selction of kits, Pilot, SIG, Topflight, Marks Models. I used to spend hours looking at the kits. I had just seen a Curare and serveral pattern style planes fly when I took that 20 year break. :(

One other part I miss about our Hobby is the great build articles in the MAN and RCM Mag. I had a subcription to Model Airplane News from my mid teens to early 20's. RCM Mag had Clarence Lee and the "For What it's Worth" tip articles. I collect them now and every time i get a new one, it's read cover to cover, even the ads.

I stopped and looked at a MAN Mag on the way out of Hobby Clones recently, good place to get fuel when on sale, and it floored me about the content. What can they write about. No real build articles to speak of. I know, how bout an article on how to beef up the fuse of your BARF. HEHE.

My first flying experience after the 20 year break was a barf glider I picked up with a prebuilt Sophistacated Lady with an electric power pod.

I had two launches, flights, and mediocre landings. Not bad for a 20 year break I thought to myself. On the third launch though after it left my hand it pitched a little down and about twenty feet away broke completely in two when the nose hit the ground at about a 15 degree angle. Could not believe it broke that easy. I had a Midwest Das Little Stick I built and used to cartwheel that thing on landings. It got dinged up pretty good, but I could usually get a couple more flights out of it before it needed major fixing.

I've been doing my part as far as saving stuff on my compter. My Radio Control directory is 12 gigs. Lotsa build tips, scanned plans, design articles, just about everthing I read offo the net I try and save a copy for future reference and sharing.

martenson.

There is still a lot of info on the RCM Mag website even though the Mag is not published anymore. The have a REQUESTED ARTICLES PAGE that consists of four sections Columns, Construction, Features, and Reviews. Lots of free articles from over the years.

Here's the link.
http://www.rcmmagazine.com/issues/re...txo7HIlTs3m1E5

Bryan

RE: Old wise and skillful
 

Can't say I've ever been accused of being shallow.... LOL

Melodramatic, yes. It's just that this is my passion. I've done about everything there is to do, and all my life I kept coming back to this...why? Because for me it's very centering. Challenging. If it was easy it would bore me to tears. Which is why I was about ready to give up flying before I truly discovered pattern. I could hot dog with the best. 3d didn't exist yet, and even now it's not even close to pattern in terms of being challenging. Fun? Yes it can be, if you're in the right frame of mind. but say I had a total of 10 minutes of time to fly....I would much prefer to work on my skills as opposed to flopping around trying to make that look good. Don't get me wrong it DOES take skill. but really it takes a lot more guts than anything else, there's nothing really all that hard about it except between your ears. Which is why I can 3d the hell out of a cheap POS and wouldn't dare do it with a plane that cost $1000 or more. Generally speaking of course, I've done worse though....

I enjoy the BPA/classic style of planes every bit as much as the modern 2 meter stuff. It's similar, yet different in a lot of ways. the "style" is really all that is different. In the older classic planes a lot more went into the engineering and rigging aspects, like the retracts, fitting everything in that tiny space, getting the most out of yoru engine and things of that nature. Now it's more about the aerodynamics in general because the patterns are SOOOOOO demanding of the plane and the pilot.

I CAN tell you I am ready to design a new plane though, I've built so many of my current design it's all like work and not much else. But when you have something new, it's very exciting. That's one thing I love about these older planes....what's old is new again!!!!

-Mike

RE: Old wise and skillful
 

Mike,

right on target,... again!

I've said it before... there must be something about modelers. Many of us probably think and feel about things, RC related, in very similar ways. It's just that, at the field, things are manifested in different ways. Basically because of personality which, to a large extent, is a result of our youth and upbringing.

It sounds like that new design is starting to gather shape... May the challenge begin !:D

Bryan, maybe this is the beginning of a grass roots movement! May the designers and builders have a long, passionate and prosperous future!

David.

RE: Old wise and skillful
 

you haven't seen anything until you've seen Harrison's new 2 meter wood/foam kit bipe.

Mike, Is there anywhere I can seem Mike Harrison's Bipe?

RE: Old wise and skillful
 

One other comment. I've been in this hobby a long time, and there has always been builders and buyers. There are a lot of people I've known over the years that have gotten their planes from swap meets, not from building. them. The arf's have helped these buyers by giving them more choice and allowing them to have something new. I've built a few arf's and probably will in the future. But I also enjoy building, what kicks me over to arf's is finishing. Painting and covering. Sometimes I spend as much time covering and painting as I do building the plane! $13 for a roll of covering and if you want mulitple colors, you can end up with 70-80$ just in monokote.

RE: Old wise and skillful
 

Jeff,

As in everything else, variety is the spice of life! I think that some of the new ARF offerings are quite simply amazing compared to what used to be not so long ago. In this sense I'm grateful for the greater options one has as a modeler. ARF's certainly have their place, especially with less experienced modelers. They provide a chance for the average person to have a go at RC flying without investing heart and soul.

With that said, I still feel that the concern is the increasingly fewer options for the experienced modeler. The expert modeler will always make do no matter what - meaning that provided a table, wood, glue and imagination are available, these people will continue to produce exceptional models. So the gap broadens keeping the experts and novices apart from each other with little middle ground.

Plastic film (especially certain brands...) is overpriced. Reason being, competition is pretty slim. However, if you want to produce a beautiful model (rarely are these ARF's), you need the best there is in terms of finishing materials. A model which cost $100 in materials and $100 in equipment shouldn't need $70-80 worth of covering - this is disproportionate. But a model which cost $250 in materials, $500 in equipment is well deserving of ~$100 in finishing, whatever that may be. Personally I would like to see the return of companies producing different finishing products. A broader selection of types and techniques, as it were. These day's we're essentially down to 2-3, hobby related, companies producing 5-6 finishing products.

Time spent on a model? That's an ethereal thing. It's entirely up to the modeler whether one spends "2 hours and you're up in the air" or 200-300 hours and "I'm not quite done yet".

David.

RE: Old wise and skillful
 

Mike - I agree with you. What about the guy that wants to fly the big stuff ? I am not defending the ARF Chinese latest gadget plane, but to build one of the 102" Extra's, or Yak, could really take some time. Then there is Carden Aircraft. Are they making them in the states ? What about engines ?

When I was still working, in a pressure packed career of marketing, etc., I did not have time to build or fly anything, as family only on weekends, etc. One thing I always had with me during moves and transfers, my last unfinished Phoenix VI, from 1973. I took it everywhere, and it did not go with the mover's, it went with me in my car or truck. Treated it like a member of the family, and if it came to having room for the Phoenix or the dog, the fleabag would have been sent to the nearest dog pound.

As you guy's know, I have the build thread going on with that P-6 now, and I also have several more glass and foam kits here. I have a couple of World Model's Intruder's. They did get me back into the air, but I had to take off the bad covering, and monokote. I would like to thank the kit maker's today that are making these planes available again, and thank the guy's that are putting the engines we need for them, up for sale.

Mike, you say, 'What is old, is new again'. I agree. Being able to put the latest radio's in these classic pattern planes, is good for everyone.

Vince

RE: Old wise and skillful
 

good point vince. i like big, i can pick a rtf 85" ws arf for 7,8 or $900 and have a blast. i have no interest in building an aerobatic plane that big but they are fun to fly. crash it and buy another although i'm still flying the 1st big arf i bought.

david

RE: Old wise and skillful
 

Get yourself a Sig Kougar kit or any Sig kit that has a foam wing. Finish with fiberglass and paint. That will cover everything you asked about here. The instructions in Sig kits are fantastic and you will be guided step by step throught the entire process. It is available all day long from Tower Hobbies for $79.99. The older Sig kits are known as "Craftsmans kits" for a reason. When you get done building one you will be well versed in model airplane construction and set up.

RE: Old wise and skillful
 

Agreed, I have a Sig King Kobra in my attic and one day I'll drag it down and finish it.

One thing though: the directioncs still say to use contact cement and 'roll" the panels on a table. Uh....no.

Sure it works, but it's heavy and unpredictable. It's better to sheet wings with either epoxy or polyurethane and weights in the shucks. The trick here is the amount of glue. It's amazing how little glue it really needs. just a few grams is plenty for a complete wing skin. Anything over 10 grams of resin per skin is dead weight.

Other than that...the fuse, capping out, stabs etc are pretty common and transferrable for a one piece wing with no adjustments.

-M

RE: Old wise and skillful
 

How do kits compare to scratch building, from a weight prospective? Vic Koening builds Dirty Birdies from scratch, which enables him to select balsa carefully.

Tom

RE: Old wise and skillful
 

I'm not all super old at 45 (although it's funny how your definition of "old" changes as you age) and I'm firmly in the camp that enjoys both building and flying. I started with Guillows kits as a kid and never really stopped. I have the cash to buy ARFs but I build because it's enjoyable for me. Beats sitting on the sofa watching beer and drinking TV, not that there's anything wrong with either of those. I bought my first ARF this summer because it met a specific size and performance need and the price was right. But it doesn't feel like "my plane" and I've finished 2 other scratch built planes since I bought it. Go figure.

Funny how even the older guys at my club are more likely to buy than to build anymore, although they do appreciate my dope finishes!

The Airfield Models site has good info on many aspects of building: [link=http://www.airfieldmodels.com]Airfield Models[/link] It's worth a few hours of your time.

EG

RE: Old wise and skillful
 

This really turned out good, alot of good information and fealings.
I like ARF's and I have had several of them.
But I have a drive in everything I do to improve and get as good as I can.
Now I'm really good on assembly ARF's and master that:)

I have built 3 kits one RCM(bridi) trainer 60, one old Svenson high wing kit and one midwest zero fun scale.

I'm building(trying) a mach 1, I got the foam cores for the wings and stab from lasercutting company(don't remember there name)
And I have sheeted the stab and will soon do the wings with balsa.
The mach one was a gift from an older and wise guy who has lost almost all his eaye site, it had sheeted wing but the sheeting was thin plywood and painted heavy.
I found out the the glue was bad and the sheeting was not glued hard to the foam cores, so I ordered all this new.
I only have the fuse left so it's allmost as a new kit.

But back to this excellent topic, we need help from the more experienced guy's.
I have searched the internet for good books but I can't find any, I can read so thats not the problem it's the lack of information on these things.

I like the idea of more pattern kits, information videos and things like that.

More power to the people:D

The west world need better economics, and we need more kits, problem solved:):D;)

Sorry for the spelling[:o]

RE: Old wise and skillful
 

There's a picture of Mike Harrison's bipe in the main pattern forum under the Cajun Nats thread. No detail of the building, though.

RE: Old wise and skillful
 

Hey martenson.

On the first page of the pattern forum is a list of build threads. Those build pages are some of the best sources of tips I've ever seen. I've spent hours upon hours reviewing the expert craftmanship of those builders. Really should be called artists. These guys really know there stuff.

I had an art teacher in college that once told me you have to be a craftsman (know how to utilize the tools of your trade before you can be an artist.) Those guys are definitly inspired.

Here's the link in case you missed it. http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_6794295/tm.htm

Bryan