RE: Deception Build
 

Hi Greg,
Take your time setting every thing in place, so you won't have the same problem I did. Using the dowels did make it easier to set the fin in place. I'm now doing fillets[:@]. It is a slow process of masking, filling and then waiting for things to set, sanding then refilling to refine the curves. The wing saddle is now flat and true. Spring is in the air in NE Ohio and it is hard to stay in the "Man Cave". I'm looking forwasrd to going to the Toledo Show in a few weeks. I be stopping by Klass Kote to place my order. Will be stopping by Mac's for a black muffler and adapter for the Webra .61.

RE: Deception Build
 

Something is up w/ RCU. The pics and post are coming out huge. I read they are having the same problems in other forums.

RE: Deception Build
 

Yes Ed,

it's all over the place. It's been about a month that I have to log in every few hours too. The site keeps booting me off.

I'm too lazy to put a post in the appropriate forum but this picture stuff is rather annoying.

Perhaps Dean could help?

David.

RE: Deception Build
 

Ed,

Let me know what that MAC's muffler and adapter cost. I'm gonna need at least one. I did like your rudder dowel idea when you first mentioned it. I adapted a couple of golf tees for the job. They should also work well. Another question, did you shape the fuselage before or after installing the stab and rudder?

Greg

RE: Deception Build
 

After I mounted the tail feathers. This way the fin gave me a good guide to carve the tail section and leave a lip for the fillets. I will have to sand the canopy to fit the fuselage but that will be easy by taping down sandpaper to the nose section.

RE: Deception Build
 

I'm still working on the Deception, just a slow process of the fillets plus tired of being in tha basement. We had 2.5" of snow last week and 80 degrees this week. Welcome to NE Ohio.[:@] The tail feathers are done and so is the top of the wing. I just laid in the pan fillets and am waiting for them to cook. I'll pick up steam after the Toledo Show like I normally do.

RE: Deception Build
 

Good to get another update Ed. My Deception is going slowly too. I'm about to get serious about mounting the tail surfaces. I have a canopy question... did you carve yours or order a "kit" canopy, or make a "glass" canopy?

Greg

RE: Deception Build
 

I have the glass one that came w/ the kit. I work 14hr days so I'll shoot a pic Thursday when I'm off

RE: Deception Build
 

Hey Greg,
I just got back from the Toledo Show. Mac Mufflers were not there as well as several manufacters. Must be a sign of the times. I did get my paint from Klass Kote. I'll just order from my LHS. I did find a few old pattern kits like the original Bridi Dirty Birdy, Platt Duelists. and Kraft/Bridi XLT's in the swap shop. No, I didn't pick any up.

RE: Deception Build
 

Greg,

if you want a quick and fast approach, you can order a canopy from Scott (RCfoamy). I'm not sure but I think $25.

Otherwise you can have fun carving one from foam and glassing it like I did... :) Can't say I wouldn't call Scott in your shoes. I also think Scott's canopies are quite light compared to the bulletproof Bridi's.

David.

RE: Deception Build
 

Did you see the classic Pattern planes in the Vintage display section. Some very nice there, including a "Canoli" which I hadn't heard of before.

Andy

RE: Deception Build
 

YES I DID:D I liked Dave Platt's silk and dope work. Now that's old school.

RE: Deception Build
 

:D Finally. the fillets are done. This is why I like FG fuselages. My Dad and friends were giving me a lot of grief for taking so long.

RE: Deception Build
 

The next step, to sand and mount the canopy. I will sand it to profile for a clean fit. Here is all the Klass Kote paint and primer I will need. Those guys and gals were real helpfull and friendly to deal with at the Toledo Weak Signals Show.

RE: Deception Build
 

It’s looking good though![sm=thumbs_up.gif]

RE: Deception Build
 

Ed,

As slow as I am, I may catch up with you soon. I've got the Deception canopy carved and somewhat hollowed from balsa block. Stabilizer and fin are mounted. Fillits are roughed in. Working on the cowl currently, and starting to shape the fuselage.

The engine (Webra Speed .61) sits so low in this fuselage, it looks too small for the airplane. Only the cylinder head sticks up above the fuselage top. Will probably see a little more when the fuselage top is shaped.

Are you painting yet, or are you going to plastic-kote your plane? I'm going to use Coverite (cloth) on the wing and paint the wing trim, then paint the rest of the airplane.

Where are you???

Greg

RE: Deception Build
 

I'm still alive. Work has gone crazy w/ new hires and overtime, and now it is flying season. I'll post when I start to glass. Keep having fun with your build and post some of your pics. Maybe that will help ME to get fired back up. I need to set up my Duelist for some pattern work

RE: Deception Build
 

I really like the "Dualist". Got to know how it flys...., but let's get these Deceptions finished.

Below, a few pics of my current status. Working on the belly pan now, then hinging the control surfaces.

Greg

RE: Deception Build
 

Hey Greg,
Thanks for the motivation. Yours is looking great. I wonder what the difference in weight is between my foam and your built up wing. It is so hard to go down into the basement these days. Here I just started to glass today. I'll mount my canopy after I glass the fuselage.

RE: Deception Build
 

Ed,

Thanks for the nice words. I'm kind of liking the way my Deception is coming along too. Won't be able to tell you what my wing weighs.... (no scale). It doesn't feel particularly heavy or light. It is what it is. The belly pan is pretty much done except for the bottom sheeting. That's coming along; will probably glue the bottom sheeting in tomorrow. Since my canopy is wood, I decided to glue it on and glass it along with the rest of the fuselage. The plane still needs final shaping and hinging (but not glueing) the control surfaces before glassing. Still haven't decided which engine to use. I have two Webra Speed .61s - one pumped, one not pumped. If I choose the pumped engine, I'll have to order the Perry carb 9100 for the Webra pumped engine. I set up the engine mount for the pumped engine so either will now fit.

Let's git 'em done.... I'm ready to stop building and fly.

Greg

RE: Deception Build
 

He, he...

nice truss wing construction Greg! It reminds me of some other build...

Since I also found it to be much better than the usual sheet shear webs, I used it too on an another wing. I bet it's really light!

Keep up the nice work guys.

David.

RE: Deception Build
 

Thanks David..... ya see a good idea, you use it again - and again. I think the trusses make the wing stronger and lighter than shear webs. What the heck is that that you showed us? I can see that you're REALLY going for light....

Greg

RE: Deception Build
 

David. I must think about Gauss when I did see your pictures.

The geometry of the wing is very important, especially the shape and construction of the D-tube, not only for torsional stiffness, but also the shape of the surface of the first part of the airfoil. It has to do with the acceleration of the air along the surface in that three dimensional space over there. (edit ***)

For that reason it is not a good idea, making such big holes in the D tube, and if you have to, as example wheel wells!, we try the find a solution to distribute the forces around the hole and after the wheel is "in" cover the hole with a plate with the right three dimensional curve.

Shear webs are to withstand the shear forces and these are very strong, also in the (diagonal!)sheeting of the wing. That’s why they call these “shear webs” and we have to glue them careful in place, grain square on the ribs.
So using something else instead of shear webs isn’t a good idea, and who gives you the guarantee there isn’t one glue joint broken? I think you cannot fly one more nice looping with that wing after that!!

Not good idea? But, not wrong?

No, not good idea, but not wrong , but if you want to built really light you better can leaf it all away when using the right covering, you probably have a better shape of the airfoil on the nose. But I aware you for flutter!!
BTW the Taurus normally has no shear webs, the thick wing is torsional stiff as result of the silk covering anyway.
Cees


*** During flight the highest differential pressure we can measure over the sheeting and covering of first part of the wing / the D tube.

RE: Deception Build
 

Naah,

I don't buy any of it Cees - sorry (although it's hard to follow what you are trying to say exactly).

As far as aerodynamics goes, once the wing is covered, wind sees nothing but a continuous surface. Also, while the LE sheeting holes do remove some torsional stiffness to the wing, since it is the interlocking continuity of sheeting that provides the stiffness, this wing is no weaker than one built with no LE sheeting and merely an additional spar between the main spar and the LE. You will find many many wings built like this, particularly extra light designs aimed primarily at electric power. Take a look at any of the "extreme light" wings from GP or Precision Aerobatics. Granted, they use laser cut rounded rectangular holes between ribs rather than circular holes which is a touch more elegant but round holes are actually stronger for the same reason that arches are - not that it matters. I know, they use CF in their wings but this model is not for 3D or for pulling 8G's. Besides, this wing is extremely stiff (especially for it's weight) and,... it also contains CF.

Wing construction using the shear "truss" technique with hard stick balsa is very stiff and lighter since you use about 50% of the material of typical shear webs. Since most all the bridges in New York, Paris and Rome are built like this (not to mention my house and just about every other interior frame wood lodge) and have been around for several centuries, I'm sure my wing will last a few seasons :). Further, the wood may fail but my glue joints won't - a combination of aliphatic and CA ensures that.

Finally, and also to answer Greg's question, this is an electric Super Pacer - 600W - almost zero vibration. The original is somewhat overbuilt in my view using stock for the fuse which is too thick and especially spruce spars in the wing. Mine has balsa spars, half span doubled and CF sandwiched in between and retracts. It also has a 1/8" ply dihedral brace which spans two ribs either side. It is flex and torsion free - uncovered - from the retract rib inward. The original is designed around a 48 oz (3 lb) glow 25 target weight. This electric version (which also has a 48" rather than 46" span) stands, uncovered with retracts and 5 servos (1 standard retract), at 27 oz all up sans lipo (~7 oz) so I expect an AUW of less than 40 oz ready to fly. It was an exercise in "extreme light" building for e-power.

As a final point, while I respect early designers (actually, all designers) and their models, I should point out that the Taurus and the Orion are not the holy grail in either construction or aerodynamic design - they are merely vintage classic low wing models, which to me, today, qualify as "sport" designs (just like this SP). That is not to say they aren't good fliers or capable of aerobatics. However, keep in mind that 40 years have elapsed since they were designed and there are plenty of fine wing designs that happen to not be Taurus wings. Although I would likely favor a 40 year old wine over one that was bottled last year, we have learned a thing or two about designing and building since the Taurus. There, I've said it.

So, with that said, this is Ed's Deception thread and I don't want to contaminate it with SP or Taurus trivia. I just wanted to post a picture of the wing since I saw that Greg, smartly, also used truss construction in his Deception.

David.

P.S. I shouldn't ask but what does Gauss have to do with any of this!@? Are you making a comment about curved geometry!? If you want to reply, please send me a PM, not here on Ed's thread.

RE: Deception Build
 

David,

Not fully sheeted wings does have the problems of the distortion of the airflow over the airfoil. Round holes in the LE does generate two more points and curve of distortion on different areas over the part of the wing with the highest differential pressure.

Better is cap strips (or square holes as you write) so there is only little distortion near LE and Spar and less on the critical locations.
For this reason in a lot of open wing constructions even the spar does not touch the covering. Look the WW1 planes.

When you want safe weight with the shear webs, give them less surface, for example 50 % of the normal distance between the ribs and more less in direction to the tip of the wing (hope you understand).

In all cases, fully sheeted is more accurate for the airfoil and that was the reason we already see this in 1964 also on the Taurusses.

Cees