Oldbob

Club 40 rules enforcement

The lack of diligent rule enforcement is a problem in any sport. Our sport of pylon racing is no different. So here we are at the beginning of a new year and new racing season with allegations of cheater engines having been used at races last year. Well this is a new racing season and I think we should start by looking forward and not by worrying who broke what rule. The positive side to this is that we now know how to tell the difference between a TT-40 and TT-46.

Ken Erickson has made a concerted effort to keep the rules as simple as possible and as few as possible so they fit on one page. Everyone should read them and know what they mean.

For those that may not know of the TT-40 vs. TT-46 rule infraction I will repeat a portion of what I posted on another thread

“A few days ago I received my TT-46 and all I can say is that it cost me $110, but now I know firsthand that the 46 piston, sleeve, crankshaft and head easily fit into the 40 case. Also I know how to tell the difference between a 40 and a 46 by looking at them without looking under the muffler for what is stamped on the side of the engine case. The space between the head and top of the case is a dead giveaway Although I doubt that you can see it from 20 feet, but at three feet, yes.

This is also true for the 46 as it comes in the box. So now we have a way of telling the difference between a 40 and a 46 just by looking at the gap. While this will make rule infractions easier to spot we may still have a problem with laidback enforcement. My thinking at the moment is that we should inspect the top 4 places at a race; this would include the guy that works up through the C & B mains to compete in the A Main.

It is up to each of us to know the rules and help enforce them, not just complain about them. The contest director can not do it all by himself, we need help. I hope this situation does not cause existing pilots to drop out, or discourage new guys from getting into Club 40 racing. This is a low cost, low key, fun event that has a minimum of simple rules, and I hope it stays that way, but sloppy rule enforcement may kill it.”

Let’s have a discussion.

Bob

BarryReade

My Feedback: (1)

All great points Bob.

What I see is the guys that are always complaining about a cheater or somebody that is bending the rules is that they are the same ones that scream the loudest that tech inspection is such a pain and takes so long and that they have to take the wing off their plane to be inspected and that that someone in tech stratched their covering or scratched something.

I feel that a complete and thorough tech inspection is paramount to not having the the problems that are going on.

JohnMcGowan

My Feedback: (15)

All good reading here Bob. And I am in agreement that there should be rules, but not so many that it would leave the governmental taste of poo-poo in our mouths. I have heard from from prior days that the 46 cyl would fit the 40 case ( before I started racing with Club40 last year for the first time) . My view is that if a guy wants to win THAT BAD that he would cheat by doing such as this, maybe he needs to find a different sport to enjoy?

We are all gentlemen here and for the most part a really nice group that will go to the ends of the earth to help one another. Why does a small percentage feel that they have to " have one up on all the rest" and cheat to do so? Human nature maybe? I dunno.

If a guy buys his C40 equpment( plane, engine,etc) ... all stock according to the existing rules, takes time to set his plane up and does some practice laps, is semi-cool and doesnt get too excited for 10 laps around the poles when the green flag drops, he has JUST AS MUCH chance of beating me or anyone else out there. When the day is done and he has beaten me, its just that, he beat me fair and square and I owe him a firm handshake and a 'attaboy -job well done! He gets to baske in the limelight and take home the First Place award... he HAS EARNED it.

Ok, let me ask this please,.. should a pilot show up at one of your races in Texas
( or anywhere for that matter) and lets say he's ran in 2 or 3 of the heat races for that day already, then its discovered that he is running the 46 cyl and piston in the 40 size case. What is the next step for the race as well as this "wonderful" person who is found out not to be legal?
Comments on my comments are welcome.
Thanks,
John

Edit... ( after reading Barry's comments above...) Barry, you scratched my covering! LOL
You know I am just messing with you man, I hope you are doing well. Get ready, D2 and his gang down at the Alabaster Club will be going live come March... lets race and have a blast that day!!

dnrocc

My Feedback: (3)

Bob,

While I agree with you totally, this makes putting on events even more difficult. As you have seen in the past, I usually don't participate in my own event as CD. This is mainly due to the fact that there is so much for a CD to do to insure the event runs smooth that he can't really concentrate on racing. This just adds another task to that list. We will have to develop the Tech Inspection guide and insure it is equally utilized at all of our events in Texas. If it requires any sort of tear down of engines we will have to develop the guidelines for that and provide specific engine details for each engine that could be utilized at our events. They all have slightly different bores and strokes as well as dimensions and we would need that data readily available at the race if we are going to use that as a guide. We will also have to provide measurement tools such as micrometers or some sort of gauging tool to validate motor specifications.

This was brought to my attention a couple of weeks prior to the last Georgetown race by one of my local racers, but at that time, I did not had time to completely study the situation. As with any other situation, no one wants to accuse anyone of anything without positive proof as this does nothing but cause ill will and tension beteen the parties. If this had been brought to your attention in the middle of your last race, could you have done anything about it other than look on the side of the motor for the proper markings without proper rules, guidelines, specifications or measurement tools?

We now have a fresh start and can adequately prepare for the coming season. It's going to be important to publish the requirements that will be adhered to prior to each event so no one gets suprised.

Don

dasintex

My Feedback: (10)

Change the rules; Allow 46 size engines; call it Club 46 racing; problem solved; LOL

dnrocc

My Feedback: (3)

John,

It would have to be decided prior to the event, but at minimum he becomes a spectator and all of his points are forfieted for that event. (Hopefully he has some points or that would be really embarrasing)

I agree with all of your comments about what this Sport is, but as with any competitive sport, humans will go to great extents to win, it's just human nature and it ruins it for the rest of us. While this is well beyond stretching the rules, it's one of the easist ones to do for the most performance gain and up until now was the most difficult one to detect without some sort of tear down. Hell if your events are run as laid back as ours, you could just strap on the 46 and not even disguise it and we would have never known. That's how little we cared because we are having so much fun.

Don

dnrocc

My Feedback: (3)

da,

I like your idea. For the TT engines, if you were racing 40's you would have lots of spare parts other than the crank, sleeve, piston and head. The rest of the parts are totally interchangeable. Now let's see, what will it take to get a TT61 piston and sleeve in a 46.

Don

stevelesl

I'm just catching up on this 40 vs 46 issue and as the CD for the Alvin races and having competed at other clubs last year, this is very concerning.
I have been concerned for some time that there was some sort of engine cheating going on (heck, the speed of some planes down the straights is incredible when compared to a good running well tuned standard 40), we really need to nip this in the bud. What is the answer to the problem ?, do we have to do full tech inspections on all planes ?, I can see that measuring the head to crankcase gap is one check that will help but what about those folks who will go to the length of machining the head to close the gap to diguise the modification....
I for one beleive that if someone on this forum knows who those persons were that had 46 parts in their 40 engine, they should contact those persons and tell them they are not welcome at the races.
Send me their names, I'll tell them.....[sm=angry_smile.gif]

JohnMcGowan

My Feedback: (15)

Better yet Steve,...come race day keep it to yourself ( if you find out the alleged perpetrator), then while doing tech inspection, bust him for all he is worth!
The look on his face would be as they say,... priceless!
Payback is a beotch aint it?

dnrocc

My Feedback: (3)

Steve,

The possibility of this occurring was pointed out to me after the last Alvin race. There were no names associated with the allegation and no direct knowledge or positive evidence of it occurring. Just an observation and only suspected. Unless someone else has positive evidence or first hand knowledge, it's only believed to have been occurring and positively verified as feasible at this point. By the time I was able to fully investigate the probability, the season was over. At this point, the cat's out of the bag and if it was occurring, we will do everything we can to avoid if from happening at our events in the future. I have no problem with any contestant participating in our future events provided they are playing by the rules. What they may have done in the past is in the past and I don't wont to create any turmoil over it to discourage further participation. Based on the allegation, we could lose about 25% of our participants if the allegations are true. Hell I would rather have them there racing with a legal engine and have the opportunity to beat them for a change if they were winning with illegal engines in the past.

Don

dasintex

My Feedback: (10)

I hate to say I told you so; last year I got in a heated debate here on RCU when I stated that too many people were cheating and/or tweaking; the response I got was that I was lazy, didn't do my homework, didn't go the extra mile to dial my plane in like everyone else, etc, etc; I furher stated that all this cheating and tweaking was taking the fun out of an entrance level, have fun class; I withdrew from participating from a lot of the races; some said I was a sore loser, not the case, I couldn't see traveling hours to race in a class where many thought it better and nessessary to cheat or tweak to participate; so now the cats out of the bag, and I guess I wasn't all that wrong after all.

Not trying to cause any trouble, maybe this is the wake up call we need to get Club 40 back to the class it was intended to be; hats off in advance to the CD's this upcoming season who will take on the challenge of enforcing the rules and keep Club 40 a great class, and shut down the cheating; lets hope it works; looking forward to participating again.

still4given

I just looked at one of my TTPro 46's along side a 40 and I see that the gap between the head and case is much larger on the 46. Very easy to look for when doing the pre-race safety inspection. There were a couple of planes last season that were clearly faster than the other planes running that day, and though I suspected there may have been some "special" work done to them, I wasn't sure enough to ask them to tear down for an inspection of the cylinder. If I saw a large gap at inspection I would instantly require it. We wouldn't get half way through the day before it was an issue. This is spec racing for a reason and that is to keep the price down and to give everyone an equal chance at winning. Other forms of racing have suffered in the past because the speed would continue to increase until only the guys with fat wallets could compete.

We have a good thing here, and the only way to keep it that way is to follow the rules and for the rules to be enforced. We have a safety inspection at the beginning of every race and it really doesn't take that long. Adding a line to the list to look for a gap at the head won't slow things down.

Unlike Don, I fly and CD our races. It is a little more work, but to be honest, the main reason I CD is to make sure we HAVE races, so I CAN race.

I would rather lose a contestant who intends to "cheat" any day if it means others will attend because they know we run a clean race.

Blessings,
Terry Yates
Victor Valley RC Flyers
Race Coordinator

vicman

My Feedback: (10)

This is the very reason we have the one engine one prop rule in our area. It's pretty easy to hear the difference on the starting line and in the air when someone is running a little too sweet. When there are a bunch of engine prop combos running it's anyones guess.
My other reason for limiting various engines is that the guy who wants to buy a pos cheaper engine (not naming a brand but rymes with GMS) I'm of the opinion they are more easily seduced to mod the engine to keep up with a decent one.

At my races I have a surface plate, mics, indicators, etc in case someone protests.
You guys make some really good points about the tech being consistant too. Keep up the good work.

Oldbob

This is a good discussion so let’s keep it going. However I would like to hear more about the PROCESS of rules enforcement. I would like to keep the process as simple as possible so this is what I propose. During the tech inspection the inspector will use a quarter coin. If the coin fits into the space (gap) between the head and the case, the engine will be challenged at that time. This will work for TT engines but not for all engines such as the GMS. The GMS 46 has the same stroke as the 40; this engine only has a larger bore. However in all cases the top 4 place engines will have the heads removed and the bore measured. This is a simple process and should take only a few minutes.

Any other ideas?

Bob

JohnMcGowan

My Feedback: (15)

Good points Bob,
the next thing we know the bad rule breaker guys will want us to use one of "their" coins out of their pocket that is his "lucky coin that his grandmother gave him 40 years ago" to check the cyl gap, LOL
I guess one can only try to cheat for so long before it will catch up to him eventually.

On Vicman's thoughts which are all great points,.. and these are just mine on the subject of props, my feeling is thats sorta what is fun , i.e., to experiment with different props during different weather conditions and to let the guy that has done his homework with how his plane performs do his thing. Its sorta like experimenting with different gears in a round track race car to see what you like your car to do. As long as the prop is not altered and commercially available according to the current rules, run what ya brung Some guys like their plane wound up all the way all the time , some favor more pull coming out of the corners, etc.... Does all my ramblings make sense to anybody ?

BarryReade

My Feedback: (1)

How many folks have used a plug gauge or other instrument to measure the venturi bore on a TT PRO 40 Carb?  Or other carb?? 

Vic has a valid point on the "one engine one prop rule" that he uses at his races.  It is very easy to to hear or see an engine that is out of line with most others. 

I personally like as much flexibility as possible so if I do my homework on my equipment It can help.   But, if it is at the expense of someone else being able to break the  rules easily and not get caught I would gladly give that up and find another class of racing that gives me that flexibility.

Has anyone actually controlled the fueling of the racers at their race.  Meaning one person fuels all planes by first defueling the tank completely and then only after it has been completely defueled and then fuel it with the approved brew??  The real way to do it is to fuel just before the heat and then the plane would stay in a controlled area before it went to the line so there was no possibility of  fuel tampering. 

I know, I know, would someone actually go to the lengths of putting 30 -40% fuel in their racer?  YES!! if they would mess with a displacement size or venturi size they would tamper with the fuel if they could.

Many would say it is now to complicated but, I know at every race I have ever attended there are folks there with the knowledge to be a great tech inspector.  I regularly ask those folks to assist me when doing tech inspections.

Also, if you have never had a real tech insp. at your races it takes about three races to get the competitors use to going through tech and the grumbling stops.  I have found over the years that most of the people that grumble the loudest about tech insp have something to hide!![X(]  Did I really say that? 

Most competent tech Inspectors can glance at the airplane and know for the most part if it is in accordance with the rules.  I have a check list and made the check list that is on RCPRO for tech inspection.  It isn't difficult and the only problem is if there is a variety of engines that I am not familiar with.  Knowing the stock venturi size of the GMS, Super Tiger, OS, XYZ motors isn't always the easiest to determine.  It isn't difficult to machine out a venturi .040-.060" and it will definitely help the engine run stronger.

I know someone is saying Barry knows all that stuff so he is using it.  No, I have the knowledge from olden days when you could cut your motors and it was legal.  There are a lot of old timers especially that can build a great motor but, I want racing to stick around so The Club 40 being an entry class event needs to be controlled so it isn't ruined.

BarryReade

My Feedback: (1)

I saw in another forum a guy saying if he is going to pay travel, stay over night and compete that he doesn't want the tech inspection to be at the end of the race for the top 3-5 racers. 

I say, you have to do that to deter racers from changing out their motor after the pre tech inspection and or carburetor or other illegal activity to make their planes faster.  If there is a known post race tech for the winners it is a STONG deterrent to illegal mods.  Especially if , like in NASCAR, the planes are immediately impounded after the last race.

BarryReade

My Feedback: (1)

Since we are talking about rules and keeping Club 40 fun but a level playing field>

I have been to a few races this last year where it trend it that area is if there is any contact between planes during a race that both planes are immediately told to land and they both get a "zero" for that heat.  All of these races where travel for me and included an overnight stay.  This is a local rule as the AMA rule is if there is contact and the airplane appears to be stable then it can continue racing.  If at the Starter and or CD's discretion they feel the plane is unsafe to continue then they can black flag that plane and told to land immediately.

If I do all my prep, travel expenses, and some other racer bumps me then I get a zero and it is very difficult to finish on the podium with a zero.  I am considering not attending these races this year because of that. 

Please speak up and tell me how contact/mid airs are handled in your area.

Alabama Racer

For some reason, there seems to be a downright aversion in Club 40 to looking at, borrowing
from Quickee, NMPRA and long established racing rules and procedures. Pylon racing has been
going on for close to 50 years and many C40 folks appear to want to re-invent the wheel.
This stuff has already been worked out from YEARS of trial and error and direct application.
Get a copy of the NMPRA Race Procedures guide and use it. Also, go to a big race, enter the
race and watch how everything happens. This stuff has already been worked out.
I do not intend to ruffle feathers, there are many folks working really hard and doing great
things putting on C40 races. No need to make it harder than it has to be.
brad

BarryReade

My Feedback: (1)

That is so true Brad.  I think that the Club 40 Crowd wants to be laid back which as far as racing goes is an oxymoron as the human id is very competitive and will push the rules envelope to the edge or over the edge just to gain a n advantage.  AMA/NMPRA Pylon racing has gone through all of these trials and tribulations and knows what works. 

At RCPRO we encourage promoters to use the AMA event rules to manage their Club 40 races.  We also encourage them to use the AMA safety code and to sanction their races to let the rest of the model airplane world know that Club 40 is a growing class of racing.

The AMA 540B Document spells out the course dimensions and set backs required to be in accordance with the requirements so you have your insurance.

Oldbob

Barry here in Texas we use the AMA rule. Come race with us.

Bob

BarryReade

My Feedback: (1)

Bob, I am trying to.  I just need the time.  It is at least 1K mi[X(] one way and I am willing to make the trip. 

Hopefully this year.

Ken Erickson

Gentlemen,

To all, no one in particular:

Go to the RCPRO web site, to the forums, to the RCPRO Club 40 forum. There you will see not only the one page rules for what goes up in the air, but also what we call the "Procedures" document. This was derived from Sections 1-15 of the AMA regulations. You will see the section on engine inspections and tear down, and lots of the rest of the procedures for racing.

Look a little lower and you will see the rules and procedures for last year. There is not much that is not there.

In the beginning we thought that the existence of the AMA rules was enough, that we did not need to have our version. In the posted documents, you will see references to the "Warbird Style" and the "AMA Style" of conducting races, as the RCPRO Warbird group is using Club 40 as an intro level racing class.

Yes, as a racing class gets mature, and the participants gain in skill, there are those who will want to cheat. We do not want them!!! There is also the fact that some people just get really good. We hope that they will help the newbies and encourage more new people to enter this sport. We do not want this fun sport to die from lack of new entrants!!!!!

Club 40 and its slower brother, Club 40 Sport, is for everyone.

Oh, well, here is a "For Instance":

5. Challenges to Legality
5.1. Challenge by contestant. Any contestant may have another contestant’s engine or aircraft inspected for compliance with the rules by posting a challenge fee of $25 cash with the CD. As soon thereafter as is practicable, the CD and at least one other person appointed by the CD shall inspect the challenged engine or aircraft. If the engine or aircraft is found to be legal, the challenge shall be dismissed and the owner of the challenged engine or aircraft shall be given the $25. If the engine or aircraft is found to be illegal, the owner shall be disqualified from the contest and the $25 shall be returned to the protester.
5.2. CD’s option. At any time, the CD or the CD’s designee may inspect an engine or aircraft entered in the contest without requiring the posting of a challenge fee.

That is from the RCPRO Club 40 Procedures document. Credit is given at the beginning of the document to the AMA Regulations.

Yes, where cheating is suspected, it must be investigated and punished.

So, please, everybody go and read the info. Oh, yes, I apologize for the typo and calling it the "20011 Rules".

Thanks,

Ken Erickson
RCPRO Club 40 Committee Chairman

Ken Erickson

So, we know that not everyone will use the National Rules and Procedures for Club 40 verbatim. However, to make it better for those, who might be coming to your race for the first time, or from far away, here is another section from the "Procedures" document:

11. Advertisements Advertising of an RCPRO Club 40 racing contest through any media should include the following information
a. RCPRO Club 40 classes that will be run.
b. Airframe and engine rule variations, if any;
c. Course length and number of pylons, if different from the 2-pylon, 400-foot, 10 lap course.
d. If fuel is supplied; the nitro content and makeup of the lubricant content.
e. Brand and size of propellers to be supplied, if any
f. Whether ROG or Air Start


For instance, that contact rule Barry mentioned is not in any of the RCPRO documents or AMA Regulations. Thus, we would ask that is be listed in the race flyer.

Good wishes,

Ken Erickson

dwaynenancy

My Feedback: (62)

HERE in Amarillo we race with OS46's because that was the one engine that all the people had in common. That is when we can get enough flyers to have a race. We have a hard time even getting them for a practice session. Dwayne