Handwriting on the wall?
08-01-2013, 06:20 PM
#76
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RE: Handwriting on the wall?
I'm sorry that I don't lament the eventual loss of glow. I flew glow engines when I first started flying. If you fly a lot - like I do, the cost of glow fuel, and how much flight time you get per ounce it was a pretty easy choice to switch to gas on larger planes, and electric on smaller planes. Have not missed it one bit. The cost, the oily mess, the smell, the constant wailing of a motor at full rip while someone tweaks the needles endlessly with their fingers inches from a prop turning high rpm, don't forget your starter, don't forget the glow igniter - happy to have that a distant memory.
And an .049? When one of the old timers (I'm 53 by the way) shows up at the field with one of those and let's it rip full throttle until it sucks the tank dry - I'd just as soon go home and pull weeds. I hate pulling weeds. A perfect candidate for electric conversion and it will look more scale. Let's face it, a glow engine or a gas engine, even the so-called sweet sound of a 4 stroke, sounds nothing like the real thing - unless we are talking about a radial or a flat 4. So is electric not a great alternative? And gas engines sound closer to the real thing if you dig the IC sound like I do.
You can get gas engines that sip $4/gallon fuel, as small as 10cc or .60 size and fly 2-3 times as long on the same size tank. Adjust the needles, and for some inexplicable reason YOU DON'T HAVE TO TOUCH THEM AGAIN! Stuff you need to bring to the field: Your plane, your transmitter, your gas, your glove. So you get to spend more time building and flying (as opposed wasting time needle-fiddling at the field) - which if I am not mistaken is why we enjoy this hobby (the building and flying part, I mean).
And an .049? When one of the old timers (I'm 53 by the way) shows up at the field with one of those and let's it rip full throttle until it sucks the tank dry - I'd just as soon go home and pull weeds. I hate pulling weeds. A perfect candidate for electric conversion and it will look more scale. Let's face it, a glow engine or a gas engine, even the so-called sweet sound of a 4 stroke, sounds nothing like the real thing - unless we are talking about a radial or a flat 4. So is electric not a great alternative? And gas engines sound closer to the real thing if you dig the IC sound like I do.
You can get gas engines that sip $4/gallon fuel, as small as 10cc or .60 size and fly 2-3 times as long on the same size tank. Adjust the needles, and for some inexplicable reason YOU DON'T HAVE TO TOUCH THEM AGAIN! Stuff you need to bring to the field: Your plane, your transmitter, your gas, your glove. So you get to spend more time building and flying (as opposed wasting time needle-fiddling at the field) - which if I am not mistaken is why we enjoy this hobby (the building and flying part, I mean).
08-01-2013, 07:34 PM
#77
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RE: Handwriting on the wall?
Robert, you missed one thing. Some of us dig glow just as much as you "dig the IC sound". I get it, you like gas. Guess what, not everybody does. And if you would rather be at home pulling weeds when I fire up a nostalgic 1/2A because it gives me joy, then by all means, go home and pull weeds. But remember, I have as much right to fly my 1/2A or large glow as you have to fly your gas as long as I have paid my dues, met the pilot requirements and have my field pass. After all, I sat through your glow, electric, gas, tow launched glider or whatever while waiting for my turn in the pilot box. And what I pay for fuel is my own business. Burn what you want, but tolerate others.
Good gosh folks, when will all this discrimination end? Let's just all go out and have fun in whatever form you find enjoyable and affordable and let others do the same!!! Heck, I even enjoy watching forms of flight other than what I choose to fly personally. I'd even prefer watching you fly a loud, stinky gasser than pulling weeds!
Dave
Founding Member of Peace in the Pits
Good gosh folks, when will all this discrimination end? Let's just all go out and have fun in whatever form you find enjoyable and affordable and let others do the same!!! Heck, I even enjoy watching forms of flight other than what I choose to fly personally. I'd even prefer watching you fly a loud, stinky gasser than pulling weeds!
Dave
Founding Member of Peace in the Pits
08-01-2013, 08:42 PM
#78
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RE: Handwriting on the wall?
Someone took their sensitive pill today! I don't think anyone has said or even insinuated that glow flyers of any variety aren't welcome or valid in the hobby. Some have waxed nostalgic, while others have welcomed the progress that good performing electric systems have brought. I'd have to agree with Robert Ellis that in the smaller planes, electric just makes more sense. I totally get the nostalgia factor, but for simple practicality you'd have a hard time making a case for glow over electric in anything smaller than a .25.
Myself, I don't think glow is going to go away because there are enough guys who really like firing up an IC engine and gas simply isn't ever going to produce the same power in anything under 1ci. I'd run gas in my .40 size planes if it were practical, but gasser can't turn the RPMs that glow engines can with the same props. So I'd have to go to a bigger and heavier engine in those planes, and I don't want to do it. Glow won't be the dominant power system that it was for so long anymore, but I don't expect Saito and OS to go out of business anytime soon either. Under .25 and it's all electric going forward except for a few niche applications where guys just really love the little glow engines. Over .90 and gas will rule. But between those, there is nothing more economical than glow (at least for the airplane cost) that can beat the power to weight ratio.
Myself, I don't think glow is going to go away because there are enough guys who really like firing up an IC engine and gas simply isn't ever going to produce the same power in anything under 1ci. I'd run gas in my .40 size planes if it were practical, but gasser can't turn the RPMs that glow engines can with the same props. So I'd have to go to a bigger and heavier engine in those planes, and I don't want to do it. Glow won't be the dominant power system that it was for so long anymore, but I don't expect Saito and OS to go out of business anytime soon either. Under .25 and it's all electric going forward except for a few niche applications where guys just really love the little glow engines. Over .90 and gas will rule. But between those, there is nothing more economical than glow (at least for the airplane cost) that can beat the power to weight ratio.
08-01-2013, 09:04 PM
#79
RE: Handwriting on the wall?
The hobby is changing. Pick up a Tower catalog from 15 years ago. 15 pages of kits, 2 of ARFs. Little different today, huh? I'm totally okay with that. If it weren't for ARF's my club would have 2 members, rather than 175. I'm old school scratch or kit, but I have NO problem with the ARF, gas electric thing. Not for me...but fine. I just can't stand to see a beautifully built scale warbird that sounds like lawn equipment.
08-01-2013, 09:59 PM
#80
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RE: Handwriting on the wall?
ORIGINAL: freddy s
My local flying field,which is operated by the city parks and recreation dept.Has bowed to local pressure and high price lawyers,has seen fit to cut the hours available to fuel powered aircraft(glow and gas)by 50%.Seven hours a day have been eliminated,no flying on sundays or holidays.However electric powered aircraft can fly everyday from 8am to 8 pm totally unfettered.As this is a public facility,requiring an inexpensive park pass and an ama card,there is no supervision and you fly on your own and take your chances.I am unable to fly during the allowed morning hours and have always done my flying during the mid afternoon.All my planes are .60 to 1.20 size glow,none of which were designed with electric in mind,therefore making conversion to electric wholly impractical besides prohibitely expensive.I am retired and this was to be my pleasure,now it seems I either go electric of forget it altogether.Please excuse my childish rant but I just needed to blow off a little steam.Thanks for your patience.
My local flying field,which is operated by the city parks and recreation dept.Has bowed to local pressure and high price lawyers,has seen fit to cut the hours available to fuel powered aircraft(glow and gas)by 50%.Seven hours a day have been eliminated,no flying on sundays or holidays.However electric powered aircraft can fly everyday from 8am to 8 pm totally unfettered.As this is a public facility,requiring an inexpensive park pass and an ama card,there is no supervision and you fly on your own and take your chances.I am unable to fly during the allowed morning hours and have always done my flying during the mid afternoon.All my planes are .60 to 1.20 size glow,none of which were designed with electric in mind,therefore making conversion to electric wholly impractical besides prohibitely expensive.I am retired and this was to be my pleasure,now it seems I either go electric of forget it altogether.Please excuse my childish rant but I just needed to blow off a little steam.Thanks for your patience.
Your planes are larger than these but I can attest to them being great fun to fly and costs peanuts to buy and operate.
1. Hobbyking Spitfire - cost me $69 in 2010 and now has over 1000 flights - even with a few 1300 Mah Lipos and a charger this will cost under $150 to put in the air.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUr81q8hqpg
2. Durafly P-51 - $140 - includes flaps and retracts. Mine now has over 400 flights. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nWQVlry9xg
Once you have made the initial outlay, flying them all day cost only a few cents of electricity.
Cheap fun that you can fly at your club outside the normal "Glowhours"
And this little E-flite Sbach is great for keeping the reflexes and eyesight young.. (I'm 48)
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGnbcYZkOqY[/youtube]
08-01-2013, 10:43 PM
#81
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RE: Handwriting on the wall?
Dave - I really wasn't saying glow engines aren't welcome in the hobby. I was just trying to say that the alternatives have a lot of benefits that one might not see until they try them out. Change is inevitable. I am a photographer by trade and grew up in the film days. I miss some of the films that are no longer available, especially Kodak High Speed Infrared (HIE). But about 6 years ago I switched to digital when the finally came into their own. Better than film in so many ways, but maybe not for B&W purists. I even had one of my cameras converted to infrared - and guess what I like it better than Kodak's HIE. With progress you will lose some things, but gain so much more overall.
I get the nostalgia aspect. I have a 67 Sunbeam Alpine that I love - it's rough around the edges. Drive it every day? On freeways with huge trucks? In pales in comparison to the comfort of my every day driver. But I still drive it now and then.
Maybe the 1/2A thing is not for me - OK it's not. Probably because I got into the hobby 5 years ago and there isn't that nostalgia connection. But it's an airplane and that's cool and I love seeing the 30 year old models that the guys bring to the field and fly. I just wish they wouldn't pop it in a stand and run the engine at full tilt for 6 minutes straight. I can however see as homes and businesses spread closer to flying fields why sound can become an issue. 1/2A engines have open exhaust and it's really loud. Gas engines are loud (on cans they are sweet). Glow engines are loud. We might be faced with having to choose. If you can't fly with an IC engine would you choose to quit the hobby? I hope not.
And if you're worried about glow engines disappearing - just like with film cameras, you can get them dirt cheap nowadays - used (and a few companies still make them). And for glow engines I would foresee a time when there will be far fewer being made. OS now makes electric motors - good ones. And gas engines (looks like they at least are figuring out the carb shouldn't be in the front). They are in business to make money, if electric and gas sales are increasing as glow sales are decreasing... well you can do the math.
While glow engines might have a better top end RPM and speed, gas engines seem to have more torque and consequently more thrust. So don't rule them out even for a .40 size plane. Drop a 10cc motor in there and I bet you'd be pleasantly surprised. I think the old school rule of .90 - 1.20 size as the threshold for gas is no longer valid. You can run one battery with an ignition battery elimination filter for the ignition and be able to kill it from the Tx if your throttle servo fails or the linkage comes loose (try that with glow). Maybe a couple ounces heavier, but fly for 20 minutes if you want.
And for the record, a DA100 sounds in no way like lawn equipment. ;-)
I get the nostalgia aspect. I have a 67 Sunbeam Alpine that I love - it's rough around the edges. Drive it every day? On freeways with huge trucks? In pales in comparison to the comfort of my every day driver. But I still drive it now and then.
Maybe the 1/2A thing is not for me - OK it's not. Probably because I got into the hobby 5 years ago and there isn't that nostalgia connection. But it's an airplane and that's cool and I love seeing the 30 year old models that the guys bring to the field and fly. I just wish they wouldn't pop it in a stand and run the engine at full tilt for 6 minutes straight. I can however see as homes and businesses spread closer to flying fields why sound can become an issue. 1/2A engines have open exhaust and it's really loud. Gas engines are loud (on cans they are sweet). Glow engines are loud. We might be faced with having to choose. If you can't fly with an IC engine would you choose to quit the hobby? I hope not.
And if you're worried about glow engines disappearing - just like with film cameras, you can get them dirt cheap nowadays - used (and a few companies still make them). And for glow engines I would foresee a time when there will be far fewer being made. OS now makes electric motors - good ones. And gas engines (looks like they at least are figuring out the carb shouldn't be in the front). They are in business to make money, if electric and gas sales are increasing as glow sales are decreasing... well you can do the math.
While glow engines might have a better top end RPM and speed, gas engines seem to have more torque and consequently more thrust. So don't rule them out even for a .40 size plane. Drop a 10cc motor in there and I bet you'd be pleasantly surprised. I think the old school rule of .90 - 1.20 size as the threshold for gas is no longer valid. You can run one battery with an ignition battery elimination filter for the ignition and be able to kill it from the Tx if your throttle servo fails or the linkage comes loose (try that with glow). Maybe a couple ounces heavier, but fly for 20 minutes if you want.
And for the record, a DA100 sounds in no way like lawn equipment. ;-)
08-01-2013, 11:39 PM
#82
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RE: Handwriting on the wall?
ORIGINAL: turbo.gst
This hobby is so great that it will survive. I like glow the best, and have taken on mixing my own glow fuel to make sure I will always be able to fly them. I have over 200 engines. so I don't have to worry about availability. I also have an expanding number of gas and electrics that definitely have a place in my hobby. Building / designing my own is every bit as much a part of my hobby as the power plant. I pickup kits / plans to make sure I always will have that as well. I have balsa everywhere to make sure I can build when ever the mood hits me. I think each one of us have the ability to make sure your individual hobby ( whatever that is to you) can continue with just a little fore site.
This hobby is so great that it will survive. I like glow the best, and have taken on mixing my own glow fuel to make sure I will always be able to fly them. I have over 200 engines. so I don't have to worry about availability. I also have an expanding number of gas and electrics that definitely have a place in my hobby. Building / designing my own is every bit as much a part of my hobby as the power plant. I pickup kits / plans to make sure I always will have that as well. I have balsa everywhere to make sure I can build when ever the mood hits me. I think each one of us have the ability to make sure your individual hobby ( whatever that is to you) can continue with just a little fore site.
08-02-2013, 01:01 AM
#83
Senior Member
RE: Handwriting on the wall?
As an electric power preference modeller, I would not discriminate against gas or glow.
My local club has one restriction on gas and glow, due to a neighbor. No gas or glow until after noon on Sunday.
I have observed some discrimination against electric power from a few of the "old timers".
Mainly has to do with organized club events and contests.
My local club has one restriction on gas and glow, due to a neighbor. No gas or glow until after noon on Sunday.
I have observed some discrimination against electric power from a few of the "old timers".
Mainly has to do with organized club events and contests.
08-02-2013, 06:08 AM
#84
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RE: Handwriting on the wall?
Fear not:
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_11...m.htm#11584305
This new engine from NV Engines is covered in both the gas and glow engine sections. I have one and it's impressive. It's a bit pricey, but it has the best of both worlds...it runs on gasoline-Benol mix but uses a glow plug.
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_11...m.htm#11584305
This new engine from NV Engines is covered in both the gas and glow engine sections. I have one and it's impressive. It's a bit pricey, but it has the best of both worlds...it runs on gasoline-Benol mix but uses a glow plug.
08-02-2013, 06:19 AM
#85
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RE: Handwriting on the wall?
Noon? Wow my club s limit is 8 am, I usually start flying at sunrise which now is 630am so I'm switching to electric, all sizes. Love em
08-02-2013, 06:26 AM
#86
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RE: Handwriting on the wall?
Fear not:
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_11...m.htm#11584305
This new engine from NV Engines is covered in both the gas and glow engine sections. I have one and it's impressive. It's a bit pricey, but it has the best of both worlds...it runs on gasoline-Benol mix but uses a glow plug.
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_11...m.htm#11584305
This new engine from NV Engines is covered in both the gas and glow engine sections. I have one and it's impressive. It's a bit pricey, but it has the best of both worlds...it runs on gasoline-Benol mix but uses a glow plug.
08-02-2013, 06:28 AM
#87
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RE: Handwriting on the wall?
oops..posted twice for some reason. I forgot to add that this motor uses about 25% less fuel than a glow engine but is more powerful. gotta go to work now 
08-02-2013, 07:17 AM
#88
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RE: Handwriting on the wall?
ORIGINAL: psgugrad
Fear not:
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_11...m.htm#11584305
This new engine from NV Engines is covered in both the gas and glow engine sections. I have one and it's impressive. It's a bit pricey, but it has the best of both worlds...it runs on gasoline-Benol mix but uses a glow plug.
Fear not:
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_11...m.htm#11584305
This new engine from NV Engines is covered in both the gas and glow engine sections. I have one and it's impressive. It's a bit pricey, but it has the best of both worlds...it runs on gasoline-Benol mix but uses a glow plug.
Would you just run through the basics ... does it have Walbro-type carb? ... does it need special plugs? ... does it use special fuel additives? ... how much oil is in the premix? ... any chance of a bit of video?...
Looking at the pic, the carb seems to be essentially similar to the usual glow-type carb ... no pumps or regulators?
08-02-2013, 07:37 AM
#89
Senior Member
RE: Handwriting on the wall?
As a .010 to .15 glow flier (primarily, I am also into high performance electrics and DLG's), I'm about 10 years ahead of you guys in this decline in the availability of engines and components..... I started out flying 1/2A and got away from it to fly electric pylon, but now that radios are so small and affordable I like the challenge of building small airplanes that make the most of the power available from a small glow or diesel motor.
What you guys aren't seeing is that this is a golden era for you and you all need to see it for what it is and take advantage of it. Components for glow flying are getting scarce and expensive-where are you guys going to find fuel tanks in 10 years? The prices have doubled already in the last 5 years.... How easy will it be to find that special glow plug your favorite engine likes, 15 years from now? It's 2026 and you just broke a needle valve on your Enya/Saito/OS..... where are you going to find a replacement? How about spinners for glow airplanes? None of my hobby shops stock them anymore...
Things are (relatively) cheap today. Go get a stash to cover your modeling needs for the next decade or two-if nothing else they will be good trade material if you don't end up needing them..
What you guys aren't seeing is that this is a golden era for you and you all need to see it for what it is and take advantage of it. Components for glow flying are getting scarce and expensive-where are you guys going to find fuel tanks in 10 years? The prices have doubled already in the last 5 years.... How easy will it be to find that special glow plug your favorite engine likes, 15 years from now? It's 2026 and you just broke a needle valve on your Enya/Saito/OS..... where are you going to find a replacement? How about spinners for glow airplanes? None of my hobby shops stock them anymore...
Things are (relatively) cheap today. Go get a stash to cover your modeling needs for the next decade or two-if nothing else they will be good trade material if you don't end up needing them..
08-02-2013, 08:13 AM
#90
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RE: Handwriting on the wall?
True, parts and supplies will become harder to find. In 2026 I'll likely have to buy what I need online from some specialty supplier. But I am confident that there will be such suppliers. Today there are small businesses that sell black and white photographic film. Kodak dropped the products and several small businesses took them over. Their sales may be 1/100 as much as Kodak was selling in the 1960s, but there is enough business to make it worthwhile for them.
I don't see any impending parts/fuel/supplies crisis for those of us who like glow. I am more worried about the furture availability of fileds for glow and gas.
I don't see any impending parts/fuel/supplies crisis for those of us who like glow. I am more worried about the furture availability of fileds for glow and gas.
08-02-2013, 09:37 AM
#91
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RE: Handwriting on the wall?
So, here's the thing.
I just bolted an OS .30 two-stroke to the bench...connected it to a petroil mix and ran it on a standard glow-plug.
Buuuuuut, don't get all excited. There is a minor problem, which is the metering of the carb. Needs a finer taper on the needle. Not an insurmountable problem. I may be compelled to experiment.
I just bolted an OS .30 two-stroke to the bench...connected it to a petroil mix and ran it on a standard glow-plug.
Buuuuuut, don't get all excited. There is a minor problem, which is the metering of the carb. Needs a finer taper on the needle. Not an insurmountable problem. I may be compelled to experiment.
