Blackie

Minnflyer your points are good points but after inspecting my arf/s and I do mean removing cover and such it seems as though the wood used is of high quality the glue lines all seem to have glue on them even the glue type seems to be of good quality the covering is very nice much better then I could do. I have heard of manufactures that do use poor wood and have poor glue lines but I have also learnt to stay away from them.

Randy

Tony Gonzo

Dear Randy,1 arf Tiger Moth tail failure,1 world models Mustang landing gear blocks ripped out on a gentle landing,1 Arf pitts cabane failure,1 arf fokker D-7 aluminum brackets holding the N struts failed in flight. These are just some of my friends at the field who have had it with ARF's. Just this season so far. Tony Gonzo

can773

My Feedback: (1)

I watched one guy lose a couple grand on a pattern model because he didnt read the instructions and missed a crucial building point, then blamed it on poor instructions, I have the same plane still going strong a couple hundred flights later, but I read the instructions.

Dave Bowles

My Feedback: (7)

Tony, I have seen everyone or similar failure to kit built planes as well, and not all planes built by new builders. I have noticed over the years that many airframe failures can be attributed to overloading the airframe with to big an engine and flying beyond what the aircraft was designed , poor wood in the kit but Many Kit builders will not make a new peace to replace it, Scoreing grooves in the wood while triming covering away , to little glue, wrong glue, Predamaged in transport , ignored damage , the list goes on to Human errors. from what I have seen the % of ARF airframe failures per plane built is not that much differant , perhaps less than the present % of kit built failures per plane built. There is on argument there are going to be good and bad quality ARF kits just as there are good and bad made CARS, TVS , VCRS , BOATS, Tranmitters, recievers , servos and Engines.

Volfy

My Feedback: (23)

How can they build ARFs cheaper than we can built from kit or from scratch? Well, it shouldn't take going through a course in microeconomics to understand the concept of Economies of Scale.

Just the other day, I bought a brand new 3.5" floppy drive for $9.00. Think about it... $9.00!!! Needless to say, they wouldn't be making and selling them if they don't make money somehow. Now try to fathom what it will cost you to build one from scratch. (It would be pretty silly of you to try that stunt, yes?) Now try to fancy what someone would charge for selling you a floppy drive kit with all the chassis, PCB an parts. (Not exactly a very bright business venture, is it?)

Mass production can be a wonderfully thing.

BTW, technically speaking the 4*60 kit I'm building is going to cost me a lot of money. Considering a very optimistic estimate of 60hrs to completion at $5.15/hr minimum wage - that's $309. This means I can do much better flipping burgers at McDonalds for a week - I can buy an ARF, an engine and still have money left for fuel. I think it's safe to assume most here can find a job that pays slightly better than minimum wage, yes?

Kinda makes that 4*60 ARF look like a steal at $199, don't it?

Build for the joy of it, but don't ever delude yourself into thinking you're actually saving money.

TomM

"How can they build ARFs cheaper than we can built from kit or from scratch? "

For years I built my computers from scratch. At first it was cheaper, then I just about broke even, but now if I had to buy all the parts, I'd come in a few hundred more than if I just buy a brand new Dell.

Blackie

Tom, I guess there are those that are just not willing to except change.

You are correct, I too am in the profession of PC hardware/software troubleshooting. I also remember building my puters from scratch as a matter of fact, I was just inquiring on an upgrade for my custom built computers at home but am coming to the conclusion of just buying a new one. Where I work at we used to custom build computers for our customers but times have changed and we are no longer allowed to do upgrades, all computers are now either leased or purchased, so once more thats a good appositeness.

Randy

SigKavalier

Well there are some advantages to kit's even though they do cost more. The base price of a kit is cheaper than a ARF. Also I don't have to buy all the covering and accesories today. So I can slowly build and spen a little here and there as needed and build a kit and have it by the same amount of time that I would have had to save for an ARF. All in all it really depends on what kinf of plane I want on whether I'll ARF it or build it. A sport plane I'd rather build, but for something scale like a P-51 or a Stuka I'd rather buy and ARF. For the simple reason that I can't cover that good and finding all the accesories to make it look right would be a difficult task. I can build good and strong but I can't match the looks of a quality ARF.

AirplaneDan98

How do they make ARFs so cheap?

It's called China!! AKA cheap labor. AKA slave labor in my opinion.

MinnFlyer

My Feedback: (4)

Yes, I've heard of them.

So are you saying that they get their wood cheaper because they are building the plane themselves?

Seems to me they have to buy that wood anyway.

You see, first they cut the wood into parts. Now they have a choice, they can throw those parts into a box and sell it to me, or they can build the friggin' thing and THEN sell it to me.

I don't see where they're saving any money.

Crashem

No I'm Saying they're buying enough wood for 100,000 planes!

That means they get a much better price on wood.

Same with covering they don't buy 10 ft they buy 10,000ft
Better Price.

Same with Glue not 10oz 1000 gals.
Better Price.

Used to sell computers years ago (Before market got to competitive) Distributor has sent volume pricing incentives 1-5 units, 6-20 units etc .. etc more a company bought better unit price was.

This coupled with lower labor costs (i.e. non-US labor) equals ability to provide finished product at lower per unit cost then individual/small builder/company can!!!!

Not saying Finished product is ALWAY Superior. Just pointing out FACT if you add up cost of components that a good ARF is constructed with and try and duplicate with similar kit and materials it will cost more!!!!

Even with manufactures - Distributors - Retailers profit margins factored in.

If anyone can build a .40 sized sport plane like the WM Super Sports .40 with a pilot figure for 99.00 (Not including Radio and engine of course)Please Correct ME!!!!

Volfy

My Feedback: (23)

Comparably cheap labor? Yes! Slave labor? I don't think so, Tim. Regardless of your opinion of the Chinese, no one there is holding a gun to anybody's head to work in those factories. The vast majority of workers there are glad to be working and making a decent living - just like workers here in the US. The only difference is the relative wage.

If you want true products of slave labor - look no further than your very own licence plate - proudly made in the USA by prisoners that don't much have a say in what they do or don't do.

Kraut

My Feedback: (1)

They had a choice not to break the law and go to jail didn't they? No sympathy here!

Volfy

My Feedback: (23)

And none were expressed or implied.

Mluvara

My Feedback: (10)

Yikes! What a huge thread!...... (I didn't read all of the posts, but skimmed most of them). Anyways, I wanted to chime in a few cents from my perspective. Our club is 400+ members. Every year, it seems like we have about a 60-80 member turnover rate, losing that many menbers and gaining the same in new members. That amounts to about 15%-20% of our membership. For each person that does not renew by March of the year, we send another renewal form along with a survey. The survey asks a few questions about why they are not choosing to renew with the club and some background on their experience in the hobby.

What we have found is this:

* Those that build their first plane stick around longer before leaving the hobby.
* Those that have built ARFs are more likely to try the hobby and then leave quicker.

Today's society is an instant-gratification one. People want to go to the store, grab something and try it out. ARFs have certainly helped this. This is not to say that some people wouldn't have gotten into the hobby without them, but the bottom line is that they have changed the hobby. Just look at the number of kits on the shelves today.

Michael Luvara
SCCMAS
www.sccmas.org

Blackie

One of the main concerns revolving around ARF's is the safety issue, but lets say I purchase a kit that was built by someone else unknown. Should I also treat this plane as a potential unsafe plane to fly?

Whats the difference?

My building one is not an option as I have already pointed out.

Randy

Mluvara

My Feedback: (10)

ARFs are in general pretty good. I treat any airplane that I did not construct the same way. That is, I look at it well, inspect potential weak spots, glue joints, etc. But, one can't obviously see everything behind the covering either. Being skeptical and checking things over doesn't hurt.

Michael

Jim_McIntyre

The difference may be that the builder has some experience with flying models... IOW, they may have more understanding of common weak points and modified accordingly.

When kit/plans building, I generally modify what I think are weak points. Some of the ARFs I've seen are simply assembled kits with all inherent flaws including sub standard hardware like motor mounts, clevis etc. etc. What really irks me is when I find unglued components, substandard material or incorrect grain direction (eg. shear webbing).

Then again, I would be suspicious of any aircraft I didn't build, less suspicious of one built by someone I know has some experience/skill/knowledge....

Taildrager-inactive

My Feedback: (11)

Seems to me if one installs the engine the manufacture suggests for their ARF's, their so called junk plastic clevises, etc. works very well for the purpose intended, but most are not satisfied and install motors that will stress these lightly built ARF's beyond the normal, then they say, crappy ARF's, well guys ya get what you pay for, if you want to overpower than build.

Jim_McIntyre

Overpowering is an issue, good point but, some of the stuff I've seen I wouldn't trust on a 1/2 A.

One in particular, I wish I had a picture of but, it relies on the elasticity of the cheap plastic used to make the clevis to keep it closed. The same cheap plastic that becomes brittle when exposed to UV rays... IOW sunlight!.... :stupid:

Crashem

If I remember correctly 15 or more years ago when the major model mags were reviewing kits sub-standard hardware included with the kit was often a criticism!!!

Times Change..... (or do they) ... Including a marginal at best or substandard component doesn't seem to be a problem associated only with a kit or ARF. Every manufacturer is looking to cut costs and increase margin unfortunately for us the consumer this can be passed on in the form of lower quality accessories.

When I Build Kits I replace most if not all the included hardware why should ARF's be any different?

Generalizations on which is better ARF or kit is impossible!!!

For every negative comment someone else has a positive comment. Also we are making judgments on quality of product based on an extremely small sample size for both ARF and Kits.

One thing this thread has shown is that most modelers have strong opinions on ARFs which is interesting.

I enjoy building and flying and don't pay too much attention to the other guy. If I'm flying one of my Kit planes I check it out same as I do one of my ARF planes.

I believe that alot of people don't want to take responiblity for their actions therefore alot of ARF horror stories we hear may not be as factually acurate. Two examples using engines to large for model without making structural mods and flying aircraft beyond its design envelope seem to me to be more common then defective workmanship. Getting certain people to believe or admit to this is next to impossible and I don't bother to try.

Jim_McIntyre

You make a lot of good points.

One of the points I've been trying to make, and it is admittedly a bit of a generalization, is, having building experience you are more likely to recognize and replace/repair substandard parts/pieces.....

ajcoholic

My Feedback: (10)

I have been into RC since 1983, and have built way too many kits, and also scratch built models and also design my own. I consider myself a good builder, and a good judge of others too.

This past week I bought my first ARF, a H9 Pizazz, for a few reasons, but mainly because I wanted to see what they were like and also I wanted another fun fly plane for an engine I had, but have too much on the go to build one right now.

I was impressed by the value for the money. I did replace a few small items (motor mount plate, clevisis and one push rod) but even if built as per the plans, I would think the plane would be very good, and have a long life.

I encourage newcomers to buy and build a kit, but I also see the ARF era has allowed many to enjoy the hobby too, for various reasons if they cannot build their own plane.

They are here to stay! We experienced modellers CAN and SHOULD watch newcomers who buy ARF's and check them over during their learning time, just as if a new guy shows up with a trainer HE built. Many times I have seen wrong things and suggested before he tries to fly it to "do this and that". Whether its an ARF or a kit, it shouldnt matter.

As for experienced guys buying ARF's and having failures, I think they should have enough knowledge to know what happens when you go outside the recommended range (be it flying style, engine size, etc) and dont account for it with reinforcements.

Just my opinions...

Andrew Coholic

Thuleman

Note: This is not in reply to anyone in particular.

I have read a good portion of posts and I have read a lot about "old school" modelers resenting ARF users.

Here is what I have to say. If you kit people feel that ARF cheapens your accomplishment of building a kit plane, then you can not be helped, and I don't even feel sorry for you.

Nonetheless, try some tolerance for a change. I am about to buy my very first R/C plane ever, and from the looks of it I am going to get an Avistar ARF. Why? Because I do not have the *TIME* or the *ROOM* needed to build a kit plane. I do however enjoy flying (used to fly gliders a few years back, real ones), and I figure that flying a model will be highly enjoyable.

I don't have the time or the place to build a plane, and I can imagine many other ARF users share the same situation. I do appreciate craftsmanship, patience, dedication, and precision required to build a plane from scratch. I don't think of kit flyers as idiots who do not understand that ARF is the cheap and fast way to go. I think of kit flyers as people who are fortunate enough to be able to dedicate themselves to something they like to do.

I like to fly, and I couldn't care less what others think about what I am flying, nor do I care about what other people are flying. I am doing this to have fun, for me this is not a "I-have-the-bigger-dick" contest, and ARFers are not the losers they are often said to be.

You can't handle to see ARFers flying? Leave! ARF is here to stay because there is a market for it. And if the only way that you can deal with ARF is to think of yourself as elitist kit builder, then so be it, who cares ...

-Peter

Jim_McIntyre

I think you're reading a bit into the posts that aren't there while skipping points already made 'Thuleman'.

I've seen no evidence of 'elitist' attitude, only concern for the impact of this latest trend on the availability of good material and kits as well as the stimuli for depth of conversation at the ole picnic table.

Enjoy the Avistar, it's a good trainer in my opinion. I just hope you can repair it when the time comes... and it always comes. I also hope you don't feel left out when the conversation turns to the other half of what modelling is about.... building.

And... there are 10 kinds of people who can read hexadecimal. Those who can and the other 15.