fryfly

My Feedback: (8)

I'm on unemployment right now too!! I know exactly how it is and I have child support taken out of mine on top of it $200.00 a check( 4 months to go for that and I'm done whoooooooppppppeeeee!!!).That being said.I saved through the year when I was working because I knew the hard times come during the winter months.My stuff is lined up by the time the snow fly's that when when the money is not there I atleast have everything together so I do have something to work on.Here again it all comes down to planning and what you want from this hobby and where you want to go.
Sorry your unemployed right now but so am I,I know exactly what it's like not to be able to have enough money to buy a simple can of paint,but like I said where there's a will there's a way.Thank God for my health because I'm running pretty short on everything else until the warmer weather comes to town!!!! Has anyone seen it heading this way yet?It's too cloudy and cold to go outside here and look!!

pinball-RCU

Point being? Aren't all business men fueled by the desire to make more money? Our economic system (in the U.S.) is sort of based on that concept. Fortunately, it's balanced by the just as strong desire on the part of consumers to spend less money.

Show you what? You seem to be suggesting that there is some kind of conspiracy among all the manufacturers to stop selling kits so they can all make more money selling ARFs. To me, this is so far-fetched that response is difficult. (You think Hobbico and Horizon get together to collectively decide how to shaft the R/C consumer?) If the markup on kits is smaller than the markup on ARFs, the business response should be to raise the markup on kits. If the consumer will not buy at that price, then the business man has every right to invest his capital in the items that have a profitable markup.

But all this is exactly the same as simply saying consumers prefer ARFs. They are willing to buy them at a price that provides a decent markup for the seller, so the seller produces more of them. It doesn't take a conspiracy for this to happen.

I think your real question is why kits aren't a lot cheaper than ARFs (given equivalent markup). Until someone from the industry breaks down the costs for us, we don't know, but my speculation is that mass-production helps. In other words, using low-cost labor, you can build something cheaply if enough people will buy it. There was never enough demand for kits to produce the volume that would achieve this cost reduction.

P-51B

My Feedback: (5)

Imagine how much Hooter would know if he had built the other four!

HOOTER

P51-B

You are missing my point. If I had for instance bought a kit and spent the time ahead of time trying to learn everything that is involved in a RC airplane (everything from CA joints to engine tuning) I would not be as involved in this hobby as I am now. When I started I knew nothing but I had a Superstar 40 that is supposed to fly. With the help of my LHS, a very good club, an excellant group of trainers, and a lot of time on the internet I started flying. Guy's I am a firm believer in the fact you learn by "doing". But you do not go out and buy an Extra 300 kit and start flying for the first time. (Sure somebody did it but it is rare)
I went from a Superstar 40 to a H9 Ultra Stik 60, to a Spacewalker (boring), to a Magic Extra, to a soon to be flying rebuilt Ag Wagon.
I am not the best flyer but I am a "SAFE FLYER".

The whole purpose of this sport is to have "FUN" how you get to this point is a mute point.

P-51B

My Feedback: (5)

Hooter,

I got your point.

I am not knocking arfs, I have several, but I didn't own one until well after I had built a variety of kits. I am not even knocking using one for a first plane.

My point was this; had you taken the time to build your first aircraft, then the second, then the third, your building skills would be much more advanced (unless, of course,you are a profesional woodworker) than they are now. You would also be MORE involved in the hobby than you are now because your skills would be advanced to the point where you could build more advanced aircraft and pursue your interests more readily.

Incidentally, most people who learn to build their first plane and fly usually use a trainer not an extra. Those that insist on the extra are probably part of the modern "gotta have it now" crowd...

Live Wire

At the end of a bad day who is going to no what it was. The trash can will have kit and arf , I love to build, some do not have the time or talent, kits are not going , It is the way they are rekited.

tdelaney

I converted the third garage to my shop. That is my get-away place. I set out there and whittle cut and saw for hours. I think I am getting addicted to the CA fumes. The epoxy smells like dog pee. But don't mind it any more (keeps the wifey out). I got to put in a dust collector or I am going to get a blast. I just set out there and whittle listen to Mike Savage on the radio and play my Italian Opera and space out. Every once and a while a finished plane appears. I say "NUTS" and start a new one.

I like the smaller size kits (.061 to 60). One of my favorites was an small cub .061 with carb. I built a few "gassers". Fleet Biplane 1/3 scale. The old BUSA Fly baby(monster). And that big Sig low wing(?). The biggies work the hell out of you. Takes a lot of time to build plus it takes two to fly them(might as well join the EAA). I don't like to mess with gasoline. I don't like fiberglass and carbon fiber. That stuff is dangerous. Carbon fiber flakes will kill you.

Well if kits disappear then I will get a pile of lumber and some plans and keep whittling and listening to my OPera. Might start building bird houses. I wonder how big a hummer house is??

rookie8

I think kits will be around for a while because I along with most have tried the ARF thing, but also found out that I am tired of rebuilding, recovering,etc due to poor craftsmanship. Vertually every one I have had, I had to almost rebuild them. They look nice, and have a decent price, but I am getting to the point that it is not worth it. At my flying club, in one week, we had four Lanier giant scale planes that the landing gear came off during the first or second flight. The wood was the worst quality crap that I have ever seen. At least with kits, we know what we have when we go to the air. I hope kits stay around for a long time.

JimTrainor

tdelaney - Can you provide more info, i.e. a link, about the danger of carbon that you mentioned?

redrocker

I like to scratch build and have never had an ARF. But- from observations at the flying field, I think ARFs are pulling people into the hobby.

If indeed kits are disappearing from the market, and it looks like they are, possibly is it because there is more perceived value in ARFs? When I look at the price of a kit and compare it to the price of an ARF of the same or similar plane, it looks like the kit is overpriced, or the ARF is being sold cheap.

Example in a recent Tower Hobbies advertisement: Goldberg Tiger II Kit: $99.99; same plane as an ARF: $159.99

When I consider all the labor I put into building an airplane, it is hard to believe that for just $60 bucks more you can get the ARF.

fliers1

I've trained possibly, well over 400 people over the years and many stated that they would like to or even have built kits, but they were assured that they would crash, so logically, why would they spend so much time building when everyone in the know all but guaranteed that their creations would wind up in splinters?
This may be the main reason ARFs are so prevelant now.

Take care,
CCR
http://www.kites.org/rc_instructors

fryfly

My Feedback: (8)

I agree with fliers1,but I also believe that there are many things that are not emphasized in kit building or is even overlooked by many first time builders is , washout,and incidence!! these 2 things alone if off by a fraction of an inch will undoudebtly put an aircraft in jeopardy of the trash can.Even with the built in jigs on some wing formers these days once they are cut off after sheeting one side of the wing are useless! many times when lifting a wing from your building tables after sheeting one side the washout on a wingtip is usually compromised,and if you don't know what to look for and check you can inadvertantly sheet the other side of the wing and put washout in the opposite direction,I have seen this many times in the past with new builders.
Most guys who spend hours and days and months to build a plane and put it in on the first flight won't do it again,so therefore it is just alot easier to buy an arf.
I personally don't believe building is on it's way out,I think it is actually at a level that will ultimately grow, once a modeler starts to understand aerodynamics and how these things affect flight,(that is if they are true airplanes lovers) then they usually ultimately want to build/create something they can take pride in and call their own. Building is definately not out,it is just that arfs are increasing in popularity faster than the already established building side of the hobby is growing.This doesn't mean building has slowed,it just means the arf's are becoming more and more abundant,that's all.

fliers1

I guess it all depends on what kit manufacturers think. If they can't sell kits, they won't make them. Economics 101.

Take care,
CCR
http://www.kites.org/rc_instructors

tdelaney

I just retired from a Government testing ground (Area XX). Carbon fiber is used in all of the new war planes and tanks. We were told that due to super hardness of carbon fiber, that if you got it on your skin it will work its way into your flesh and finally into your heart. The AMA put out some articles in the 1980s when it appeared in the modeling world warning of the danger. A major bru ha ha resulted.
The crash site of modern jet fighters is extremely dangerous due to carbon fiber. I noticed that the word was put out to not touch Shuttle parts in Texas. The Shuttle is mostly carbon fiber.
If you step on this stuff it will go through your shoes and into your feet. and finally your heart. We had special shoes and suits at the test station for cleaning and working with this stuff. IF you get it in your house carpet you must treat the carpet as hazardous waste.

I don't know that if the stuff they sell in the hobby business today is the same stuff as the military uses. But I am not about to find out the hard way.

JimTrainor

Thank you for the reply. I'll have to some reading on the subject.

therotund1

Hooter is being modest, he is an excellent flier. He does however, have a problem backing his truck up at a 90 degree angle to the pit area !!

The wind is your freind!

rookie8

Sorry Kevin about the attempted suicide statement, I thought you said it was almost terminated at one time. It seems like you have one heck of an airplane, but I don't think I can afford quite that much at this time, so don't go to any pains to bring it. Thanks anyway, and hope to meet you at the show.
Don

Damnathius

Wow... All the way to your heart? Kinda like the Morgul blade Frodo was stabbed with? What keeps it from going "through" the ground it's sitting on?

All kidding aside, your body has a tendancy to EXPELL (reject) things that have penetrated the skin, such as splinters, cactus needles, fiberglass, etc. etc. Sounds like the "Gov" fed you some, uhm... Doo doo. Don't feel bad though, since it's pretty much the same meal it feeds everyone.

I believe the reasoning behind the "shuttle warning" was potential toxicity of the debris, not carbon fiber.

Granted, much like fiberglass, carbon fiber dust is not a good thing when inhaled, ingested or absorbed through mucus membranes, and requires necessary caution and care when being used, but I'm really doubting the government on this "works it's way to your heart" bit. After all, they said there was no problem with Columbia... God rest the crew's souls.

Good day.

GrnBrt

My Feedback: (5)

Your body won't always expel objects from your body and that's where the problem comes in, and I have had to have my Doctor on more then one occasion cut open a fingertip because I got the smallest piece of balsa in it. It's the kind of sliver that you can feel but cannot see with the naked eye, even with a magnifier and usually he has to make the cut bleed a lot to flush it out. Now a fellow modeler I know posted a picture of his finger that had a small piece like this in his finger (carbon fiber) and it was the most terrible thing I have ever seen!!! He was told that if he hadn't had it taken care of when he did the complications would have been real bad, and if memory serves me right he almost loss the finger. Trust me when I say the finger was terrible looking!!! BTW, my doctor told me to get another hobby but I'm to old for bull fighting!!!

Damnathius

GrnBrt, that is why I used the word "tendancy". For example, a cactus needle might take 2 weeks to be "expelled", and it might hurt a lot, but it's nature's way. Also, infection is part of the process.

I'm not recommending this method of healing at all, but was just pointing out the body's reaction to foreign objects that have penetrated it, regardless of how small.

As for a new hobby, I've heard pottery is relatively safe, but they sure don't fly well more than once!

flapbreaker

My Feedback: (1)

I think alot of people are miss interpreting the hobby of r/c flight. It is really rather unique and is actually a combination of two seperate hobbies.

1) Hobby one is people who like to build things by hand and get real satisfaction from it. In this case it happens to be airplanes.

2) Hobby two is for people who like to fly R/C aircraft.

Now some people like both hobbies and some only like one or the other. Not everyone can have an engineers mind and patience to build a plane from a box of wood. And not everyone who can build an awesome plane can be and excellent flyer. I find it rather humerous to see posts that refer to people the buy ARF's as lazy, or lost generation or what have you. People always think they had it worst or had to do more work and now somehow that is more honorable. No it's not it is just different. I just think with the hobby of r/c flight we have to keep in mind that it is a combination of interests and doesn't represent one single hobby with some lazy people and some "more honorable" types.

Take for example R/C Cars. I really doubt anyone gets into that hobby for any other reason than to actually drive the cars. I am sure plenty of people enjoy assembling their ARF cars (Do they have anything else?) more than some but they all do it to drive the cars. The old timers aren't standing around thinking how lazy the newbie's are. Just my .02 cents.

cheers

hilleyja

My Feedback: (3)

Lets face it. I bet more than 75% of us are mainly interested in Hobby 2. We want to fly. In order to fly we have to build or assemble. Its a lot easier and less time consuming to assemble.

You die-hard builders have your place in the scheme of things and I certainly wouldn't begrudge you your hobby -- just don't begrudge me mine.

BTW, when I spend 50+ hours assembling an ARF and getting it ready for flight I feel like I have accomplished something and rightfully am proud of my accomplishment.

adrian-RCU

i think we cover the spectrum, i am 15 years old my dad 48 i love to fly and he loves to build, compromise i just don't crash to many to fast.

flapbreaker

My Feedback: (1)

Hey adrian, it is good to see that people in Isreal get to have fun with a hobby like this. Our news media only show the bad things that happen over there never things like people flying their airplanes. I would rather see the later.

flapbreaker

My Feedback: (1)

I second that point. It's still quite a feet to "ready" an aircraft for flight between the radio gear and engine setup ect... Sometimes I feel like that takes more time than building the plane or "assembling" an ARF.