Hey guys,

I'm saddened that CL is losing its popularity to R/C. I'm sure this has often been the case, but moreso now than before, in my opinion. I learned the basics of engine maintenance, kit building, etc., on a PT-19 CL and a Lil Wizard CL. I find that experience invaluable. Besides, CL can be fun! People think of it as "it sucks, because the plane is attached with strings," but I think there is still room for fun, innovation (generally speaking), and competition. I know small groups of people still compete, especially in other countries, but I'm saddened to find that so few shops even carry common CL planes or parts. For example, I was unable to find a CL handle for my plane from Hobby People (formerly Hobby Shack, I think), and they had just ONE kit, that was probably left behind from god knows when.

Feel free to contribute this thread. I'm just venting. [&o]

Welll...

'Way back in the dark ages it was c/l or free flight. Granted, there were some nuts (like the Good brothers) playing with radio control. What they had really was more misdirected than it was controlled.

In late 1952 or early 1953 I got my first radio kit. No, not a kit for a radio controlled plane, a kit to build the radio. A very modern circuit, the rx used a "Gas" tube, no "A" battery required. Just one 67 1/2v "B" battery, and using a resistor in circuit you didn't have to have a separate set of cells to operate the escapement. It was good for its day, but what was good then would be execrable now. Still had to remember to wind the rubber for the escapement, though.

With the quality of "Affordable" r/c gear in the early 50s, c/l and free flight were still safe.

At the Nats in Grand Prarie, Texas, 60 or 61, I saw my first full proportional rig. It was the "Space Command" seven or eight channel, I had to have one. Then I found how much it cost. EIGHT HUNDRED BUCKS!! And this was when $100/week was really high pay.

With the lack of "Affordable" r/c gear in the early 60s, c/l and free flight were still safe.

When we got into the 70s, though, the numeric price of a good reliable radio set had gone down from the $800 of 1960, and the average wage had gone up, so the real price was a lot lower than it had been.

With the quality of "Affordable" r/c gear in the early 70s, c/l and free flight were going away.

And now, with a four or five channel rig, absolutely reliable, going for no more than $300, it is no surprise at all to me that r/c is taking over almost all sport flying. And the real price of the $300 rig, expressed in 1952 dollars, is about the same $10 I paid for the POS single channel rig with the gas tube back then.

Consider it another way.

Your r/c park flyer is in the back seat. Lunch time. Want to fly? Just park, get it out, start the engine, and fly. Wipe the plane off, put it in the back seat again, and go get a cheeseburger for lunch. Then back to work.

Your u/c plane is in the back seat. Want to fly? Get the plane out, run the lines out, (including the third line for the stooge) and anchor the stooge. Start the engine, run to the handle and pull the stooge wire. Now you're in the air for a nice time. Fly again? No, remember you're on your lunch hour. Wind up all the lines, clean the pegs for the stooge, wipe the plane, put everything back in the car, rush back to work. No time for a cheeseburger.

The convenience. Real or not, r/c just seems to be a lot easier, in addition to the true freedom from the hemispheric possible flight of control line.

Don't misunderstand. I still have some u/c planes. But 99% of my flight time goes to r/c. And when it's building time, I have to admit I'd rather build to have no strings attached.

Bill.

>>edit: misspelled word. wr.

Still, within that hemisphere you can do things that stress models way beyond what RC usually encounters...like fly combat at 110 mph - 60 feet from you, fly a precision pattern while trying for the elusive five foot radius corner in a square maneuver, etc.
Each has its good and better (no bad) parts.
CL is not going away. As a matter of fact it's still growing. The numbers are small compared to RC, and some of us fly both.
Since many hobby shops will not carry CL stuff, we rely mostly on cottage industries and mail order. Sig still has CL equipment, and Brodak's has CL exclusively. Even Tower offers some CL equipment including a couple of CL ARF's and some CL engines.
If you can't find CL stuff locally, I would suggest getting a Sig and Brodak catalog.

George

CL lost to the flash of cheap RC. But in an ever shrinking and litigious world where people are not apt to put up with a remotly controlled cruise missle, CL has started a come back. Park flying is fine, but I only need a 200 foot circle which is still pretty tight for most RC ships that can handle a breeze more than 5 mph. Also, you don't have to worry about the occasional glitch that can send your darling little model off to a point of destination unkown.

Going away, no more than any other aspect of the hobby, in fact our portion of the hobby has been growing for the last 10 years. Of course, at our numbers adding 1 or 2 hear or there is a markable increase!

Lord knows what the future brings, but I usually chalk this discussion up with the 'Where are all the young people' which of course if you've ever looked at an old magazine circa 40's and 50's was the lament back then as well. Along with, 'where are the true craftsman now that CL is so readily available' really cracks me up.

I fly RC and FF as well, though not as much FF thanks to this being a part of Kansas/Missouri where there is too much wind and too many trees! As for RC, I'm headed out to the Midwest Slope Challenge tomorrow for some slope soaring competition so I hope the wind actually DOES blow. Hadn't flown RC since New Years day otherwise, but that's due to the CL field being 5 minutes away and not 20 minutes away. Gotta have open spaces with those RC planes. And don't get me started with those behemoth IMAC planes who seemed damned and determined to get us ALL banned. Whoevers idea it was to have an airplane with half a Volkswagon engine in it for power and then to fly it in what must be viewed by the general public, (and most of the sane RC public) as out of control needs to be shot. Impressive, yes, but Holy Jesus would you guys get a grip! And where oh WHERE are the AMA DB restrictions when it comes to those things. You cannot planly port the exhaust of one of those things and expect it to be quite. The prop noise alone carrys more than a mile! Keep it up, and then CL WILL be making quite a large comeback. If townships will actually make the deferation between RC and CL when they go about banning.

And I always thought that winding in/out Control and stooge lines was always more than made up for never having to charge your transmitter, receiver and flight packs. AMA LI/ION emergency notice? Who cares, I'm thinking about going a step further and just flying diesels. Then I won't even need that Ni-starter.

gcb is right. It seems to be growing slightly at least. A couple of years ago Tower had no C/L equipment except for a couple of Cox 1/2 planes. Now they have two ARFS, engines, handles, and line. They wouldn't have bothered if the numbers weren't there.

To make it short Flying sites and money. Back whenI flew CL trees were planted in the park where we flew to stop us, then they said that the brown spots on the grass were caused by our planes, The cost has made a difference ARF ARF.
My Heath kit 8 channel was $469.00 in the 50's now you can buy radios from $40.00 UP!!!!!!!!!!
I rented a full scale 150 in the 60's $12.00 hr wet try that now.

Scuby,

Check out Brodak.com. John has numerous kits available and a number on the drawing board. I'm helping him with setting up his laser cutter. The last few kits and all of them from now on will be laser cut. He's coming out with 6 different ARFs within the next month or so. I have two of the prototypes and they are as good as you can imagine. John has a flyin over the fathers day weekend that has hundreds of participants from nearly every state and at last count, 5 foreign countries. CL is alive and seems to be growing. Keep the faith.

Thanks for the replies, everyone. It's good to hear that it is not going away as fast as I thought it was. [8D]

I read a comment somewhere in an RC article some years ago to the effect that one day all modeling would be reduced to electric CL because of space, noise, etc. etc. Hopefully that is far in the future.

The fact is that competition stunt and sport flying are much healthier than they were 20 years ago (at least in my experience). Other aspects of CL are not doing so well, but still hanging in there. It will be interesting to see what the increasing numbers of quality ARFs will do for CL. I'm really waiting to see who will put a fully stunt-pattern capable electric on the CL market.

Jim

Cos people like you are saying it is!

The control line sphere (pun intended) is more lively now than any time since the late 60's/early 70's when it was supposed to have died!

Tony

Just to throw my .02 in, RSM is also a plus in my book. Check out RSM for some very nice C/L models www.rsmdistribution.com and Eric Rule is a very nice person to deal with. My daughter is still flying one of the first, if not THE first, production Mark One kits. Flies great with an old Stallion 35 screaming on the front end, and can do the full pattern, but can still be tame enough for beginners.

Rick

They are presently working on cells that you fill with alcohol and run. The prime market for this is your laptop, never run out. But with this technology it won't be long before we refuel and fly till the alcohol runs out, ie you'll need to have an on off switch. Electric control line is already here, just not widly known. It will be the norm in the future, but it will be a while. Many of us will always love the sound of the engines.

Sooorry Bossss. Thass not boozzzee, thass for my llaaptoop!! Hic!!

Can someone support with numbers that UC is indeed growing. I doubt it. The majority of those practicing this part of the hobby are old - very old and starting to die at a high rate. The newer advocates are usually people returning after many years - retreads - also old and not young people.

With the advent of cheap radios, park flyers, indoor RC, and ARFs, RC will continue to attract the younger set and continue to significantly grow. It can now be flown in very limited areas and areas that are noise sensitive.

UC has one degree of freedom (elevator) and is buried in the past that most middle age people were never exposed to and could care less. RC has usually three or four degrees of freedom (elevator, rudder, throttle, and aileron - some or all) which leads to more interesting flight for the advocate or the newbie.

I recently tried UC again after being away for 35 years. I found it dull - very dull!


Paul

Well Paul,
Looks like CL is not for you...

George

Well, I belong to a CL club which was down to about 6 members in the early 80's. That club now has over 60 members. I went to a stunt contest about that time and was the only entrant. Last year I went to a stunt contest in the same area and there were about 30 entrants. I counted up the total individual entrants in the various CL stunt events at the 2002 Nats. Total was 126; almost exactly the same as the total entrants in the (fewer) stunt events at the 1970 nats. The annual Vintage Stunt Contest (now held in Tucson) has gone from a two-day to a four-day contest.

CL is adding a few young people, as is RC. But no aspect of model aviation is overrun with youngsters. CL is a much smaller group than RC so we get a pretty high percentage increase out of a few new faces. Here in Austin, between 2000 and today, we have had about a 600% increase in participation (started out with 2).

Jim

Wrong!

RC adds tons of young, middle age, and older people to its roster daily.

UC adds old men to its roster who die quickly.

UC will be like Wakefield in 10 years - still here but who cares.

If it wasn't for Brodak's - which for the money puts out a crummy kit - UC would be failing even faster - but with a little time, it too will go. GP was a flash inthe pan.

UC fliers are living in a dream world.

It is dull, very dull, with a few very inflated egos. I thought RC pattern was dull but at least the pilots know more than one control!

Paul

Ps

I started in UC at a very young age - then I matured to RC!

Well Paul,

I have to wonder why you come here if you've "matured" to RC. Some of your comments could have been seen as good observations had you not insulted those of us that have apparently lost our minds and backslidden from RC back to CL.

The comments about John Brodak's kits was a little over the edge too.

It's the typical old R/C is better than C/L argument, and is always brought on by an R/C person being better than a C/L person, since they perceive R/C is more "mature". Paul, ever notice how the C/L guys are having fun instead of arguing? Look at all the arguments in the R/C forums and on their fields. If arguing is fun for you, then this may not be the forum for you. Come back when you "mature" some more.

Rick

Nice try at a troll Paul. Maturity is a relative term. Started Ukie in 54 and RC in 57 and never totally abandoned Ukie and still do it even though I have to do it in a wheelchair now.

John

Two thumbs up to you John.

...try that while flying RC, Paul.

George

I think it's simply attrition. You spin around in a circle, get dizzy, fall down, hit your head [sm=spinnyeyes.gif] ...

I feel very offended by some people here!

I'm 23 years old, so I think I'm still a youngster I fly since my 12 year Free Flight (mostly sport) and since a few months I really enjoy flying CL too. I did try RC but it is not my cup of tea.

So this means that I am old and dull?

A very frustrated Stijn

Paul,
Going around and around in a circle, not being able to do anything but climbing and diving is dull for anyone. I suspect that you are one of the many who have tried control line and couldn't do anything other than a wingover before you crashed. You're probably not much of a builder either so lacking in both flying and building skills for control line modeling you have taken up the far less challanging RC modeling, where it doesn't take but a day to learn how to fly if your anything but a complete spaz and the ARF's abound for those twits that glue their fingers together more than pieces of balsa. If you want numbers on the increase in CL activity look at contests like Brodaks annual Flyin, the VSC, and even the NATS. Lets see who Homeland Security comes after first...RC or CL. Paul you're dull just like RC.

catdaddy

You really haven't matured at all!
We've gained 6 members this past year to raise our total CL only membership to 28. All in good health and not likely to die before you do.
Our Website gets over 1000 hits per month from all over the world. If you don't believe it read our guestbook. www.tulsaCL.com

BTW
ALL MODELLERS LIVE IN A DREAM WORLD!!!