FAI Documentation ??
12-22-2006 | 07:29 AM
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FAI Documentation ??
I'm building an SE5a, 1/6 scale. When I started the project, I didn't intend to compete. However, now I'm being urged to compete in FAI. I have three black and white photos of #11 of the 25th Aero Squadron, that I want to use for the subject plane. I have several hundred pictures of other SE5as that I've been using for details. I've tried to use details thar are common to all the planes, but there are a lot of differences from plane to plane. I have no way of knowing which ones are accurate for # 11. So how can I document # 11's details. I'm thinking I should forget about competition, and just build the plane to please myself. Any coments from FAI competitors would be much appreciated.
Steve
Steve
12-22-2006 | 10:16 AM
#2
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RE: FAI Documentation ??
Steve,
I continue to encourage you to go the competition route. Yes it can be frustrating and the documentation part is about as frustrating as it gets. I built an R/C Curtiss A-12 Shrike a few years ago and I almost gave up due the the conflicting and erroneous info I had. I probably ended up at the point of just not doing anything that was most certainly wrong. After reading the rules you know you have more than the minimum amount of documentation required. The minimum is about all I have for my Hs-129 and that was enough to make the USA Team twice. My static scores were in the middle of the pack at those World Championships. You don't have to show all your documentation. The details can, and are expected to, represent the "generic" SE5. You can include the documentation for the details you really want to call attention to. Make sure you don't include any conflicting information. I would not include anything that would raise a red flag for the judges and make them wonder if that detail was "standard" on SE5's, ie., no photos of tailwheels! After having this competition experience I have asked myself what would be necessary to get better results, like perhaps a trophy at a World Championships. I think better documentation than I have put together would be a part of that. The top competitors, in R/C for sure, build models of a prototype that exists. Hence they can photograph it at a museum or their local rich guy's hanger and make the documentation 100% consistent and assure that their model is "right." Short of that probably none of us can build a model that we are really certain is accurate.
Chuck
I continue to encourage you to go the competition route. Yes it can be frustrating and the documentation part is about as frustrating as it gets. I built an R/C Curtiss A-12 Shrike a few years ago and I almost gave up due the the conflicting and erroneous info I had. I probably ended up at the point of just not doing anything that was most certainly wrong. After reading the rules you know you have more than the minimum amount of documentation required. The minimum is about all I have for my Hs-129 and that was enough to make the USA Team twice. My static scores were in the middle of the pack at those World Championships. You don't have to show all your documentation. The details can, and are expected to, represent the "generic" SE5. You can include the documentation for the details you really want to call attention to. Make sure you don't include any conflicting information. I would not include anything that would raise a red flag for the judges and make them wonder if that detail was "standard" on SE5's, ie., no photos of tailwheels! After having this competition experience I have asked myself what would be necessary to get better results, like perhaps a trophy at a World Championships. I think better documentation than I have put together would be a part of that. The top competitors, in R/C for sure, build models of a prototype that exists. Hence they can photograph it at a museum or their local rich guy's hanger and make the documentation 100% consistent and assure that their model is "right." Short of that probably none of us can build a model that we are really certain is accurate.
Chuck
12-22-2006 | 03:48 PM
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RE: FAI Documentation ??
Chuck, Thanks for the encouragement. I do want to compete,just to get together with other scale guys for a fun day of flying. It's when I start thinking about winning that the fun stops. Then I worry about what will look good to to the Judges and building seems like a job instead of a hobby. I'll continue to be as accurate as I can, and let the chips fall where they will. Jack will help me put together the docs,so that will help a lot. I really don't think there is a generic SE5. There are so many differences from one plane to the next. What do you think about the bomb rack? I have read several places that some SE5s were equiped with cooper bombs, but I can't find a single picture of such a plane. I have pics of the rack, the mounting lugs, and bomb release lever. #11 has the mounting lugs for the rack, but that dosen't prove it ever had one mounted to it.
Steve
Steve
12-23-2006 | 09:21 AM
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My Feedback: (20)
RE: FAI Documentation ??
Steve,
My experience, sample size of one with that amount of validity, is that the judges don't worry about whether the particular prototype was ever equiped with the bomb rack. If you can show, and you obviously can, that SE5's carried the Cooper rack then it would be an accepted option. I fly a Typhoon in Sport Scale and use a bomb drop. I have no proof that XM-M ever dropped a bomb. I do have documentation that states that Typhoons from that squadron at the point in time represented by the color scheme (oops colour scheme on the British plane) were working with 500# bombs. I've never been asked to prove any of this. There was an issue at the 2004 world Championships with one of the R/C models. It was a WWI prototype that duplicated a plane in a museum. The museum plane had a placard that prohibited aerobatics. The modeler duplicated the placard and declared his model eligible for the non-aerobatic flight routine. The judges disallowed that because the original type was a fighter and obviously aerobatic. Thus the generic was given precedence over a specific that would give the modeler an inappropriate advantage.
My experience, sample size of one with that amount of validity, is that the judges don't worry about whether the particular prototype was ever equiped with the bomb rack. If you can show, and you obviously can, that SE5's carried the Cooper rack then it would be an accepted option. I fly a Typhoon in Sport Scale and use a bomb drop. I have no proof that XM-M ever dropped a bomb. I do have documentation that states that Typhoons from that squadron at the point in time represented by the color scheme (oops colour scheme on the British plane) were working with 500# bombs. I've never been asked to prove any of this. There was an issue at the 2004 world Championships with one of the R/C models. It was a WWI prototype that duplicated a plane in a museum. The museum plane had a placard that prohibited aerobatics. The modeler duplicated the placard and declared his model eligible for the non-aerobatic flight routine. The judges disallowed that because the original type was a fighter and obviously aerobatic. Thus the generic was given precedence over a specific that would give the modeler an inappropriate advantage.
12-23-2006 | 01:28 PM
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RE: FAI Documentation ??
Thanks, darock. I put the thread in RC Scale, with good response.
Thanks, Chuck. I'm Worrying over s...tuff that hasen't happened. I must just be tired from moving.I'm enjoying this build, and so are a lot of other modelers. And I'll enjoy flying with other scale nuts,no matter how I place. I really don't have a worry in the world. Think I'll just take a nap and get back to building
Steve
Thanks, Chuck. I'm Worrying over s...tuff that hasen't happened. I must just be tired from moving.I'm enjoying this build, and so are a lot of other modelers. And I'll enjoy flying with other scale nuts,no matter how I place. I really don't have a worry in the world. Think I'll just take a nap and get back to building
Steve
12-23-2006 | 06:34 PM
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RE: FAI Documentation ??
Steve,
I hope the R/C Scale guys can point you to a link to the FAI Rules. FAI is usually detailed about documentation needed, equipment limitations, flight options, scoring, etc.
That kind of info is interesting in itself, and sure helps get into your mind how your SE-5 will be judged.
Warning, if they do the CL Scale rules anything like they did the recent CLPA set, they can get pretty wordy... Still, they expect their judging panels to follow what's written.
Go for it! It's great to enter a competition, if only to see how others have tackled the same challenge, and to see how they solved, or didn't, some of the sticky things that always make our hobby a joy (yeah, right...).
Most central advice I can offer a Scale modeler is, FLY the model! Don't get so wrapped up in the construction and detail that you lose your flying touch. I've seen too many beautiful scale models either poorly flown by a rusty builder - or worse, not flown enough to trim to where it is pleasant and dependable. Don't let that bite you in the empennage.
I hope the R/C Scale guys can point you to a link to the FAI Rules. FAI is usually detailed about documentation needed, equipment limitations, flight options, scoring, etc.
That kind of info is interesting in itself, and sure helps get into your mind how your SE-5 will be judged.
Warning, if they do the CL Scale rules anything like they did the recent CLPA set, they can get pretty wordy... Still, they expect their judging panels to follow what's written.
Go for it! It's great to enter a competition, if only to see how others have tackled the same challenge, and to see how they solved, or didn't, some of the sticky things that always make our hobby a joy (yeah, right...).
Most central advice I can offer a Scale modeler is, FLY the model! Don't get so wrapped up in the construction and detail that you lose your flying touch. I've seen too many beautiful scale models either poorly flown by a rusty builder - or worse, not flown enough to trim to where it is pleasant and dependable. Don't let that bite you in the empennage.
12-23-2006 | 07:07 PM
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RE: FAI Documentation ??
Hi Lou. I found the FAI site and downloaded all the scale rules. They seem to be very detailed, both for the competitor and the judges. And you're right about flying. I'm just an old stunt pilot,and I do love to fly. Learning how to fly the SE5a has really been an eye opener. I have the Top Flite 1/6 scale to learn on.If this scratch build flys as nice as the Top Flite,it's going to be hard to beat .
Steve
Steve
12-25-2006 | 11:27 PM
#9
RE: FAI Documentation ??
Steve,
Indianapolis, eh? Land of Jack Sheeks and Jim Vornholt?
You do realize that Jack Sheeks has been, I believe, a USA Team member in CL Scale at FAI World Championships?
You want some great advice from a great guy, who's usually happy to help everyone, try Jack!
And wish him the best into 2007 and belated Merry Christmas from the guys at Tucson, AZ. We enjoy the heck out of it when he can make our VSC's in March!
And, don't forget Stunt, either, please? It's the mountain that can never be completely climbed, but is a lot of fun going as high as you can, any time.
\BEST\LOU
Indianapolis, eh? Land of Jack Sheeks and Jim Vornholt?
You do realize that Jack Sheeks has been, I believe, a USA Team member in CL Scale at FAI World Championships?
You want some great advice from a great guy, who's usually happy to help everyone, try Jack!
And wish him the best into 2007 and belated Merry Christmas from the guys at Tucson, AZ. We enjoy the heck out of it when he can make our VSC's in March!
And, don't forget Stunt, either, please? It's the mountain that can never be completely climbed, but is a lot of fun going as high as you can, any time.
\BEST\LOU
12-26-2006 | 06:39 AM
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RE: FAI Documentation ??
Hi Lou. I don't know jim, but Jack and I have been friends for 25 years. He helped me build my first Stunter and taught me how to fly it. He really is a great guy. I've ordered a doc pac from WWI Areo with Three views and color chips. When it gets here, Jack's going to help me put it all together. Hope to see you at Tucson.
Steve
Steve
