Guys. I find two conflicting scenarios here. See pictures at the bottom. The question is which is the up line ?

Is the line closer to the LE an upline or is that the down line ? Does it matter as long as the down line is perpendicular to the fuse ? Perils of a newbie ! I know, when I fly, that pulling my wrist back or raising my arm , the elevator must go up and pulling my wrist down or lowering my arm the elevator must go down.

So if the bellcrank is at the bottom of the wing and the elevator horn is at the bottom of the eleavtor, the line closer to the LE is down line. If you put the elevator control horn on top of the elevator it becomes a up line.

For a trainer which is better. Or is that just immaterail as long as elevatot corresponds correctly to the wrist action ?

Thanks again for your advise.

Sorry. I did not plan to put up uch large photis. The upload program did it. Do not know how to shrink it. If a moderator can shrink it , that would be a great help. Thanks in advance.

It really doesn't matter much as long as raising you arm (or rocking your fist back) gives UP elevator and moving the opposite direction gives DOWN.

As you've noted, moving the horn from one side of the elevator to the other reverses the direction of the elevator. Moving the bellcrank from top to bottom doesn't matter. Moving it so that the pushrod is outside the fuselage doesn't matter.

What DOES matter is that you have a little bit of sweep back in the leadouts - the leadout guides should be somewhat behind the center of gravity.

Here is a free program that makes reducing picture size easy. http://bluefive.pair.com/pixresizer.htm

Yes as stated above it doesn't matter which line is the up line although usually the rear one is used for up. Do keep the line guide exit behind the CG and don't try to fly a tail heavy plane!!!

Have fun.

John

Heck I even know a couple of flyers that were self taught that picked up the handle upside down the first time... and years later still fly that way. Makes me crazy to watch them fly!
Bob

Thank you all. I feel confident now. Cheers !

For a trainer plane I don't think it really matters which is up and which is down, but for anything else you want your "up" (aerobatics people refer to it more as "top" for 'top of plane') line toward the TE, and your elevator control-horn on the bottom - so you've got max line tension for "top-side" maneuvers.

Excellent points made already about positioning of the belcrank - slightly behind the CG is best. Your tip-line-guides definitely want to be a bit behind the CG, just a bit more than the belcrank to allow for line bow in the wind while the plane is flying. Adjustable lead-out guides are great too. That way you can adjust just exactly where the lines come out of the wing after a couple flights.

The #1 rule in CL flying is, and always will be, KEEP YOUR LINE TENSION POSITIVE !!!!

Dave

[X(] The handle has an upside and a downside? .. When I fly it's hard to tell if I picked it up right or not ...

For a trainer plane it doesn't really matter if the "up" line is at the front or the back but for stunt planes it's always the front line for "up" because that arrangement helps counteract gyroscopic precession in a hard turn which tries to yaw the model in or out depending on which control direction you give it. "Up" yaws the nose out and "down" yaws it in.

Icolor code the leadouts at both the handle and the plane so that Idon't accidently get the wrong ones connected. Don't laff, I've been doing this for over thirty years! and I've seen folks with as much experience lose planes for the same reason; miss-matched lines.

A couple more things to consider:

Make sure your control system is installed so that if you pull on only one line you do not push or pull the control horn to the limit so that all of the weight is transferred to the stab/elevator.

If possible, you want the leadout positions adjustable. Different diameter or length lines will require different positions because if the amount of bow caused by drag.

It does not matter where in or on the wing the bellcrank is positioned, only where the leadouts exit the wing.

George

I fly with a safety thong, as required in CL stunt competition, attached to the bottom of the handle. Years ago I learned to fly clockwise. Took up flying counterclockwise with the handle upside down, and flew that way for over 50 years. I accidentally built a clockwise airplane. I very carefully took up flying clockwise with the handle right side up. I can now fly almost as well clockwise as I do counterclockwise. Try it if you are getting bored.

E3D,

What determines which line does what depends on both the location of the elevator horn and the side of the bellcrank used to move the pushrod.

Jim Walker, probably, established the traditional layout, in which the pushrod connects outboard of the bellcrank pivot. In that case, if the elevator horn is above the elevator, pulling the front line causes UP elevator. Vice versa, if the elev horn is underneath, the front line causes DOWN elevator.

Downunder mentions gyroscopic precession effects. Think of a toy gyroscope. Spin it up and try to tilt the axis. It tries to turn as if it were pushed on the side 90° 'later' in the direction of flywheel rotation. The faster you try to tilt the axis, the more force it generates.

For trainers, or models less maneuverable than fun or contest stunters, this is usually no problem. For stunters with large, hefty props turning considerable RPM, often with fairly heavy spinners mounted, it can be a problem. The gyro effect - for standard rotation engines, flying counterclockwise when upright - UP gyro 'tends' to swing the nose out, and vice versa.

When we apply control motion at the handle, we want to overcome airloads on the control surfaces. That takes a shift of the pull force. In level flight, the lines each carry half the total pull. A sharp corner needs the loaded line to carry more force than the 'other' line. Half the shift is added to the 'pulled' line, and half eased off the 'other' line.

This shifts the point the 'middle' of the total pull force aims into the model. In level flight, it's like two kids who weigh the same on a seesaw, as against one heavy kid and one light kid. With unequal weight kids, the heavier kid sits closer to the pivot, and the lighter one further, than when the weights were equal.

So, with UP line forward, this pull shift moves forward, and partly counters the gyro tendency to turn the nose out. Works just as well on DOWN control - shifting rearward , opposite to the gyro tendency to swing the nose in...

Again, this is important for very maneuverable stunters, and much less so for planes that fly less demandingly. The complication is that to get UP-line forward, you DO have to either take the pushrod to the top of the elevator, or flip the bellcrank over so that the pushrod connects inboard of the pivot. Most stunt models keep the elev horn under the tail surfaces, so the bellcrank gets flipped over.

E3D, The guys who have posted before me have given you good advice though some is possibly far more advanced than you need for now.

There really is no written rule that I know of to follow and at the time the picture you supplied in your first post was printed the usual arrangement was to go with what was simple. Typically most half A models as you showed us have the up line at the rear and the down in the front.
I also believe the model shown in that picture was designed to have the elevator horn on the underside of the elevator. Since the stab and elevator are mounted higher than the wing, this would mean a simple straight pushrod with no bends in the middle and would make the rear lead out line the 'up' line.
Look closely at the pictures I have modified and you will see that the picture has been changed to show the elevator horn and its enlarged detail more clearly to the reader.

One could argue that the plane just needs the slight bend shown to link the push rod but I really believe it would be best to have the elevator horn protrude downward for simplicity.

Robert

Terrific Guys. Thank you all very much. Robert thanks for the explanation in pictures. i will print this thread out as future refrence. I am going with the elevator horn on this tariner below the elevator as the kit pictures show that. Will try the other way too and try and get an understanding of your explantions as I fly. I fly anti clockwise. Clockwise, I will have to give it a try.

Again, thanks everyone helping me to make it on my own. Maiden this weekend if the wind stays low.
Caio !

On a stunt or racing airplane, I have the leadout guides as close together as possible, so am not much concerned about which line is up. I have four trainer airplanes, and they all have the leadouts well separated.

Years ago when I flew controline many of the older guys flew with their handle flat or parallel with the ground. They always had their up line leading or toward the leading edge. This was explained to me as whether upright or inverted the the lead line was always up! These guys never rolled their wrist and kept their handle flat from start to finish.

Bob Harris

Had a great flight today. My maiden on the trainer ( Black Hawk, American scout) I (just as a personal prefrence) choose for the front line (closer to LE) as an UP line, so moved the elevator horn on top of the tail. It seemed to give me more postive up control in flight, maybe my imagination. The plane just pulled good and level flight from tip to tip, end to end. It pulled good towards the outside circle, I just was turning around, hardly any control input.

Thanks for all your input and support, I was very happy today. A success today after 25 + years and I loved every minute of its flight.

Cheers !

On flying with the handle level to the ground... combat guys learn to avoid that as bumping into another set of lines or into a person gives you full up (or down) control until the back set of lines also touch whatever you bumped... not a good thing with a very manuverable plane
Bob Furr

I think that when learning to set-up and fly C/L models the idea would be to use the best and most advantageous ways to do so. There is no reason not to.

Bellcrank position should be around the middle of the fore/aft chordline. Simple and the most room to mount it.

The leadouts should be a little bit behind the CG. More for traing, less for more advanced flying.

Outboard tip weight should be so the outboard tip drops nicely to the bench when inside with no wind blowing on it.

The bellcrank should be mounted so that the "up" elevator leadout is in front. With a simple model with no flaps the horn of the bellcrank toward the outside of the circle and the elevator horn on the top of the surface.

The handle should be held as vertically as possible so that when full control is necessary when flying inside and outside maneuvers the hand has more or less equal. This is more important later, but you'll have the experience of trying to fly with the handle that way.

All of this is from years of stealing others great ideas about Stunt model set-up and since they fly the easiest and most stable, it's a good way to go from the start.

If you don't have your first couple of models this way, no big deal at first, but it'll begin to help as you start looping, flying above the 45 degree elevation and doing combination inside/outside maneuvers and inverted flight.

Good luck,
Chris...

What Chris said!
My only difference is that I lay my handle over flat when inverted. It (for some unknown reason) helps keep me from getting "up" and "down" confused.
Happy circles!

I do the same thing, FlyGuy.
It takes me about 200 flights to begin to hold my handle vertically through the whole pattern. It's been a long time since I flew that much in a season and so I seem to go back to my early ways! I can get more control input when I need it, with more precise movement through the range with the vertical handle. When I "go back", I hold my hand palm up, my dad holds his palm down. He never did feel the need to change but the Champs all try to get the handle vertically throughout the flight.
Chris...

Actually, this weekend at our contest, I noticed that about 1/3rd of the "Expert" flyers laid their hand over to horizontal during the inverted flight portion (palm up). During maneuvers, most tend to follow the plane with the hand also but that masks the actual direction they are pointing the handle. Very few keep the handle vertical at all times.

I have consciously tried to keep my hand vertical at least during the inverted flight portion, but I end up having to concentrate on the handle instead of the plane, and the actual flight sucks so now I just figure that my hand belongs wherever my brain subconsciously tries to put it and my attention belongs on the plane.

I was never taught (or shown) how to hold the handle when inverted so I simply did whatever felt natural and comfortable for me. The end result was that I lay my hand over palm up when inverted and it's now instinctive for me that when my hand is palm up then controls are reversed. I say do whatever feels right to you. Never concentrate and what your hand is doing during manoeuvres either, that's a recipe for disaster . A friend of mine once videoed me closeup doing square eights and I couldn't believe the hand/arm motions I make .

When I learned to fly in the mid nineteen fifties, I was taught to go palm up when inverted so that if I forgot which control was up I could just freeze and the plane would pull up by itself.

I never did freeze in position, but I gave it the wrong control many times. [&o]


George