GeraldRosebery

My Feedback: (14)

The more electric kits (ARF's) I buy and build and also read about in reviews, the more I am perplexed about kit manufacturers' recommendations and supplied hardware. In general, I think it safe to say my own experience and most reviews agree that the models actually do fly. but usually rather poorly with supplied or recommended power systems. The question is why? Sure the manufacturers want to keep them cheap, but why disappoint your customers all the time? If a brushless configuration (or bigger motor) is the way to go, then sell the kits without a power system at all and let the customer provide one. I for one am getting bored with doing the recommended installation and finding out the model staggers around for perhaps five minutes before it gives up. What gives here? We never went this route with glow. The glow RTF models fly great with the provided engines. Why now, why electric? It is a sure fire way to turn off newbies.

U2Steve

A sure-fire way to turn off the N00bs? Tell 'em their easy, all-in-one, open-the-box-and-fly outfit is gonna run $300 or better. How many kids would get one for their birthday then? I'm guessing a lot fewer than get $50 Firebird Outlaws, which actually do fly, and fly well.

You can't get the same power as a .40 glow engine, or even a .15, without a serious brushless motor and Li-po batteries to keep the weight reasonable. That, right now, costs a few $$$.

And there are some Electric ARF's that fly without expensive upgrades. The Outlaw, as I mentioned. The Hitec Sky Scooter (and its replacement Space Scooter) is another. The GWS Slow Stick. The Multiplex Easy Star. In suitable conditions, they all fly fine. They're not fast, and not safe in 15 MPH winds, that's all. If you want that kind of performance, you'll pay extra, or go glow.

And while you're at it, find a glow-powered RTF for under $200. If you were willing to pay the same for an electric model as you were a NextStar, I bet it would perform as well.

/Rant off.


Steve

Knighthawk2100

When I firsy started the hobby I got suckered in with the Megatech. I have yet to see a megatech plane fly. I spent $1000 of dollars on **** planes before I found the local club and got set straight. Ya the slowsticks fly great and the new slow-v's, but new people want cool looking planes. Not knowing anybetter I bought a cessna from megatech. The power system bairly had the power to pull the plane around the ground never mind in the air, but I assumed it was me so I bought another one. Destroyed that one is about 5 min too. So I was $400 in the hole and still had not seen a plane fly. I was going to a less than reputable hobbyshop (now I know that). I though glow was $1000's of dollars. He was happy to let me keep thinking that and selling me $200 electrics. I went though about 8 electric planes before I finally found the club and got a Sig Lt-40. I wasted a whole lot of money, and have never gone back to that hobbyshop.

Todd_J

My Feedback: (-1)

Well I'm just starting out, and was going to get a GWS SlowStick with a brushless motor and a LiPo. are you saying I'm going to be dissapointed? I don't want to go down the road of a lot of $$$ spent without having a capable flyer!

Knighthawk2100

We have a bunch of people who fly slow sticks and slow-Va's they fly awesome. I never got into them cause I wanted a "Cool looking plane" If i bought one of those first I would be a lot happier and a lot richer We have one guy that flys his higher then I fly my glow. He gets it to the point where it is only a dot then sales around till he gets tired. You will be happy plus there are lots of mods you can do.

Matt Kirsch

My Feedback: (21)

I believe the original poster was commenting about the lackluster performance of STOCK power systems. Brushless and LiPoly on a Slow Stick is certainly not stock. As long as you pick a brushless/LiPoly power system that's appropriate for the Slow Stick (i.o.w., check the threads on brushless Slow Sticks and use one of those power systems), you'll be fine. In fact, the Slow Stick's performance is more than adequate with the stock (included) power system.

I've noticed quite the opposite about stock and recommended power systems lately. Plane designs and "stock" (read: cheap brushed can) motors are more appropriate for each other. Both manufacturers and end users are learning how to better take advantage of the capabilities of these power systems (i.e. batteries with enough voltage and better gearing/prop choices). More and more often, brushless power systems are becoming the "recommended." Yes, there are some planes out there that are poorly designed, but as a general rule, things are quickly improving across the board.

One thing you need to keep in mind is that it's not always bad design. In the case of cheap can motors, it's not unusual for one to be bad out of the box. Bad batteries, wrong batteries, undercharged batteries... None of it has a thing to do with the design of the plane or its power system. All are easily remedied and turn a "bad plane" into a wonderful flyer. Even if the power system is a bad design, it can often be tweaked to provide far more power.

R/C FLYR

My Feedback: (1)

gws slope kit,everything you need minus motor, lots of choices avail able to choose from, one site has them for 27.00

Tweet

My Feedback: (1)

I guess the way I am looking at things now is I buy an airplane I like. At that point you select the power system. For now all I fly is electric so I select eletric power systems. The point is you aren't necessarily stuck with an "electric" ARF.

However, a good manufacturer can take advantage of the low vibration etc. of electics and design airplanes that are lighter because of that.

My next airplane is a Kadet Senior. I also really thought about a Big Stick 60. Neither were designed with electric power in mind.

There are great choices out there.

GeraldRosebery

My Feedback: (14)

The point I was trying to make is that most (not all) stock ARf's have dismal performance when set up as recommended. This is not just me, it's many reviewers as well. At the end of the day they all seem to drop in a suitable brushless motor and LiPo and "Hey Presto" that lackluster performer is transformed. What I say is that, if this is going to be the case, then let's do it up front and recommend a suitable motor/LiPo combo that will cause the model to fly "well". I don't say "fast" or "3D", I say "well". There is nothing harder to fly than a severely underpowered airplane. It's almost impossible for beginners. I have seen many kids with el cheapo kits really disppointed when the model they have spent their hard earned money on doen't fly very well, or sometimes at all. I really don't think that it is productive towards getting people into the hobby to sell them something cheap that doesn't work properly. To say that glow RTF's cost more than a poorly flying electric ARF is a gimme. Let's not fool ourselves into believing that this hobby can be done cheaply. It can be done inexpensively, but not cheaply. Cheap never satisfies.

Tweet

My Feedback: (1)

Gerald,

I agree with you. In most cases it would be better for them to sell an ARF sans motor. The performance with the stock systems is often abysmal and the people who try to stock systems first are usually the newbies who can least handle the marginal performance. First thing I do when I get an electric ARF that comes with the motor is toss it. Another weak spot is the landing gear. Sometimes I wonder if the company actually flew their finished product and deemed it worthy. This includes some fairly reputable companies.

My guess is the very low end stuff that includes a radio, etc. can do a lot to turn people off on the hobby. In my case it got me interested.

-pkh-

My Feedback: (2)

I thought about doing this, but are the slope versions identical to the powered versions, just minus the motor? Are they still molded to accept a stick mount? Have cowls? etc.

gwright

what did you get flying Gerry?

bdavison

My Feedback: (1)

Guys its all just a marketing gimic.

The manufactorers just include a motor for the guy that wants to have "one-stop" shopping, and isnt concerned about maximum performance. The manufactorer just puts a motor in there that will get it airborne, not make it do ballistic verticals.

NO plane comes like that. Not even the gas ones. If you go buy a glow trainer RTF, it comes with a .40. That engine will fly it around, but if you want AWESOME performance, it might recommend a .60
You'll never see a glow RTF with a Saito Golden Knight in it. Its always going to be a low end motor like a thundertiger or magnum motor. Can you imagine what a RTF glow kit would cost with a SuperTiger, Saito or Webra in it?

The other reason electric planes come with small underpowered motors, is so that people can get their plane flying while they save up for a brushless motor. Electric foamy pilots are predominantly 15-20 year olds, with little money.

Take a shockflyer for example.

The kit sans motor runs around $39.90.
Now if they put a good motor....say a AXI 2204,
Now the price of that kit is going to be $103.85 based on average street price of the AXI.

Its all in the marketing.

Trogdor the Burninator

I agree with what you said except this I think. A lot of people in my club fly foamies and I think I'm the youngest at 33! Plus if you watch a lot of videos on the web, they're all 30-70 year old guys with the gws and alfa models and the teens through 30s with the 300 dollar 3d foamies... 5 bucks worth of foam but brushless, small servos, lipos, etc!

Anyway, I think the GWS class planes in the 50ish dollar category come with motors to entice all types of flyers from total noobs to glo guys who want to fly in their backyard or local park. If its really cheap and flies ok they can get into it and learn about upgrades later. GWS is moving toward lipos and brushless now as upgrades for this reason but simplify the build process by including most gear and having the rest available.

The next step up don't include motors or maybe include a gearbox only like the MiniFuntana and say realistically you need brushless and lipos to fly like it was designed to fly.

But maybe I haven't had experience with some of the brands that may still be difficult to fly these days stock because of being underpowered and other issues. I bet those days are gettig numbered though, so much competition!

Matt Kirsch

My Feedback: (21)

Trog, that's kind of what I was trying to say. In days past, I would agree that most planes that recommended/included cheap can motors were underpowered, but not any more. I'll agree to SOME planes still being underpowered, but the vast majority fly just fine with stock motor when due diligence has been paid to the rest of the power system. Are they ballistic, MACH 2, unlimited vertical, 3D performers? Nope. They're not meant to be. Do they wallow around barely above stall speed? They shouldn't, and if they do there's a problem, but not necessarily a problem with the design or choice of MOTOR.

DAAdood

Hello guys while you guys are in the subject I like to ask a question.

is anyone of you tried to fly the Super Sportter from the GREAT PLANES. My experience was terrible to start with. After I figure with help of other how to charge the battery correctly. I took it to the field thinking that with the force it was giving it would be enought to take off on the grass. I found out the hard way that the plane act like a car. It would not even try to pickup its tail to take off.

There at the field they advise for me to get a LIPO battery less weight but they I found out that I had to change the SPEED CONTROL also to go LIPO battery. So anyway I just spend another $ 243.00 to upgrade the plane I bought a brushless motor Speed Control and Battery. The plane with the motor speed control and battery that is include cost me 115.00. Anyway I like to share my disappoinment wityou guys.

My second question how do you install a brushless motor to a exist motor mount made of plywood of course. Let me explain, there is about 1.25 inches from the firewall to the supposly firewall of the motor that is already screw in to the motor. ( I put it togehter) What would you suggest for me to fill that space in between? I block of wood? build like a box big enough to fill in the space?

if you have any suggestion or link to take me to the right place to solve the problem pleae reply to me.

Thank you
DAAdood

flyingace451

It's not even best to start out with an ARF. If you are a beginner, it would be best to go with an RTF. I started out with a Firebird Scout, totalled 2 of them, and finally tought myself how to fly the 3rd. I only burned 150 bucks teaching myself how to fly. And I am very happy that I went with the inexpensive stuff first.

cyclops2

There is a ABSOLUTE safe way to pick a GOOD first glow or electric plane.
JOIN A LARGE FLYING CLUB!!!
It does NOT get any simpler!![sm=thumbup.gif]
You get to see actual plane combinations flying.

Adam G

My Feedback: (17)

I think that RTF's and ARF's are getting better as lipo and motor prices come down, and technology improves. I started out like many people, with the Park Zone line, and was very happy with the performance. There V-tail models (Firebird Commander, Firebird Scout, Etc.) seem to have decent power and performance. I have since moved on to ARF's, and I tend to go brushless right away. As a person gains some experience, they realize that more power equals more fun, more speed, and more manueverability.

I think the key is keep them cheap, but give them enough power to fly well. Many companies like e-flight are offering a brushless upgrade right out of the box. You can choose to spend the extra $60 and get a brushless preinstalled, or go cheap and start out with the brushed. Now that to me is the answer. Let the consumer choose what they want. I bet the second time around they opt for the brushless!

Bottom line, nothing gets people into the hobby easier than a $100 RTF plane with decent power, and spare parts readily available!

stockdaddy

RTF planes generally have problems of bad RX's, low cell batteries and poor motors. Also some are just too light and can't handle wind very well.

You can get great flight performance with even a cheap $10 mutiplex 400 or 480 can motor. However if you only run it with a 7.4 volt lipo or 6 cell NIMH, you won't get max performance as you would using 8 cell NIMH. A lot of RTF kits like to save that extra $1 or $2 by providing a 6 cell pack.

The only time you need brushless power is if you want to hover and need min 1.5 to 1 power ratio. Even then you can still get by using cheaper NIMH's instead of Lipos.

I have been victim of a cheap Cox Gas RTF kit ($250) and several electric RTF kits. Now I only buy ARF and put in my own gear that I can trust.