Flying Scotsman

I've been flying glow since I started flying RC 8 months ago. Until recently, I have not been interested in electric however I have started watching the Zagi's flying around the field. I thought it would be fun flying the Zagi's like combat planes and chasing each other around the sky - something that you can't really do with glow with out increasing the chance of piling your glow into the ground. I've seen the Zagi in the LHS however I have been put off with the thought of getting into electric is just more expense after starting in glow; batteries, motors, chargers etc....

How much would it take to get into electric planes?
What in addition to normal field kit for glow engines would I need?
Is the Zagi a good plane to train somebody who is scared of flying glow (my wife -who helps build all my planes and who is a member of our local RC club)?

Thanks
Flying Scotsman

mumblety-peg

My Feedback: (3)

Hi FS-

The cost to get into electric for someone already flying is the cost of batteries and a charger and some kind of tool to measure current and voltage. The exact cost depends on what kind of model. For a Zagi you can get away with a $60 charger and a roll of packing tape for field repairs. I don't have a Zagi right now. But I plan on buying another one soon.

For measuring current and voltage nothng beat the astroflight wattmeter. I think it was around $60.00 You can use a VOM with a shunt. But i don't think it's worth the hassle. You don't really need this for Zagis and such though. Here's the astro link.

http://www.astroflight.com/promo.html

Chagers run from $60 to better than $700. Figure on around $120-$150 for a fully functional charger. You can spend less. But a charger in this price range would cover just about all youir charging needs no matter what u fly.
www.fma.com has a nice one around that price range. Also http://www.rc-dymond.com/. I look for a max. charge rate of at least 5 amps. But smaller cells, such as Zagi cells don't need that high a charge rate.

The painfull part of eflight is the batteries. Zagi cells are fairly cheap though. Around $2.25 * 8 cells per pack. Plus a couple of bucks for connecters and wires. But the large, sub c cells can be pricy.

You really should plan on 3 sets of batteries. One to fly, one to cool between flights and one charge while flying. But don't forget when looking at cell prices that u don't need to cough up the cash for glow fuel.

You asked about a field box. And that depends on the plane. But u really just need to add the charger and charger battery to the box. For a zagi battery I just use my glow starter battery. For the larger cells I need a bigger charger battery. One neat thing about eflight is the ez lunch time flight.

For Zagi batteries try some of the new NIMH 2/3 aa size cells. Here is one site that carries them. http://www.edogfight.com/

After a few flights on a traditionl trainer I finished training by flying a Zagi at a local park. It's not the best trainer because it can be a a bit twitchy. But it's do-able if u turn doen the throws.
*But*, the Zagi is just about impossible to break. So I say go for it.

Wright Flyer

Hi,

I'm not sure you have to have a Whattmeter to get involved in electric flight. I've been flying electric planes for about two years and I'm only just expecting the delivery of my first Whattmeter this week!

One thing you WILL need that isn't used for glow is an electronic speed controller, which is what varies the voltage to the motor based on the throttle channel from the Rx.

Also if you've been flying glow I kind of guess that any servos you already have are going to be full size (maybe 25-30g ?). For electric flight everything must be kept as light as possible and so most people use mini/micro servos that weigh just 6 or 9 grammes unless it's a really big aircraft.

Similarly I'd guess that any receiver you have is probably going to be full size. Again, for e-flight it's more usual to use a featherweight receiver (like a Hitec Feather say).

As for a charger - you can pay $100-110 for a really good one like the SuperNova 250 or Astro 110D but a lot of people have been saying good things about Hitec's recently released CG-340 which costs a lot less than those really high spec. chargers.

The Zagi is not a particularly good training plane (except that it's qiute crash resistant). A much better bet for teaching someone is a much lighter, slower flying plane like the GWS Tiger Moth

Cliff

mumblety-peg

My Feedback: (3)

Wright Flyer-

I agree that a watt meter is not a must for a Zagi or most speed 400 size planes.

As to reciever and servo size, a smaller plane will need smaller servos and RX. I'd consider the Zagi on the small size. So HS81 size servos and a 555 RX would do. Nothing larger. But I think a feather reciever is looking for trouble in a plane as large as a Zagi. The feather is single conversion. So it has limited range and noise rejection ability. I've seen some problems at my local field with a Zagi using a Feather.

Also, the CG-340 looks perfect for a speed 400 plane. If I ever need a small charger I'd buy it in a heartbeat.

Thanks for bringing up the speed control. And I guess a Tiger moth could be a good trainer. That is unless u live near Boston, the other "Windy City"

I just bought a GWS SlowStick. That would be perfect , I think, for a trainer. And dirt cheap at around 40 dollars. And tough, I had a radio hit (feather rx... sigh). Went nose in from about 20 feet. No damage... Nothing. Just picked it up and flew again.

Flying Scotsman

Gents,

You have given me a good insight into electric powered flight and it's much appreciated.

Thanks for your input.
FS

mpj220

No longer support RCU

Matt Kirsch

My Feedback: (21)

If you've been flying glow already, the costs involved in getting into electric are minimal.

To be able to fly both planes, figure on a receiver and two servos for the Zagi. http://www.servocity.com has a good deal on flight packs and individual parts. Get HS-81 servos for the Zagi.

The only other thing you MIGHT need is a battery charger. Do you have any sort of field charger for your radio? If so, you can use the transmitter charge function to charge your Zagi packs!

There are also plenty of inexpensive chargers out there. One highly underrated charger is the relatively new Hitec CG340. It's a great value for the money! $35 gives you the ability to charge ANY battery, NiCd or NiMH, up to 16 cells. This includes your transmitter and receiver batteries! Just think, you can charge up your glow plane at the field while you fly your Zagi. You can charge your Zagi while you fly your glow plane. The possibilities are endless.

049flyer

My Feedback: (18)

I flew glow for many years and decided to switch over to electrics about 3 years ago. I sold all of my glow stuff and I built a Lazy Bee.

I bought:

Astro 110 Charger $110.00
Inexpensive Speed 600 motor $20.00
Speed Control $75.00
3 Battery Packs (cheap car type) $45.00
Gearbox $15.00
Electric props $10.00
Extra light wheels $5.00

Total (not including the kit) $280.00

Within days I found that the performance was so poor I needed to do something. There are just too many variables with electrics, battery count, batter capacity, gear ratio, motor type, engine tuning, prop size and pitch etc. So I bought a computer program to help analyze all of the above. Another $50.00 plus & 60.00 for a Whattmeter.

Now that I have spent $340.00 to fly a .15 powere plane I felt better. Problem is the performance was still terrible about like a cox .049 on a Lazy Bee. The best part of the flight was the first 2 minutes. During this time I actully had enough power to loop from a shallow dive! And roll without losing too much altitude. After two minutes I just had enough power for level flight.

I soon learned that to get really good performance I would need at least a cobalt motor $90.00 or even better a brushless motor and controller $200.00. Also I would need SR battery packs at about $60.00 each.

At this point it just got too expensive and I gave up and went back to glow. It's hard to beat the economy of a glow engine. The best parts about glow is the cost and the fact that from the first minute to the last you have the same amount of power available.

Performance can be had from electrics but you better be ready to spend quarter scale level bucks for .15 sized flying.

mumblety-peg

My Feedback: (3)

2Fast-

I fly both Glow and Electric. Each has it's place. My 60 size Extra wouldn't work for me cause it would take too large a pack to make it fly. But I have some smaller electrics I just love.

In the past electric may have been too much of a hassle to get right for most. But today good performace can be had for a fair price. I think the only way really is a plane designed for electric from the start.

I'll agree, the best bang for the buck is still a glow engine. But U can come pretty darn close though, if u hit the "sweet spot" when designing an electric. Some things work with electric and some may not. A lot depends on the individual. But you don't need 1/4 scale bucks.

One thing about electrics that bothers me is the initial cost of batts. But if u compare the cost of glow fuel for lets say two seasons and the cost of cells for a few sesasons I think the cost is less of an issue to some. *But*... the initial cost *is* high.

Anyway, If u want to see some examples of fair priced electrics check out the E3D and Qwick-E. I think both will find there way into my winter building list. Along with a Diamond Dust and ... something big.....


http://gwmp.net/

http://gwmp.net/images/video/e3d_2.mpg

http://gwmp.net/images/video/Kwik-E-1.mpg

049flyer

My Feedback: (18)

While I agree that reasonable performance can be had with certain "custom" combinations of airplanes, motors, speed controls etc, like the zagi. Once you are finished with the zagi however you are either forced to develop a whole different setup for a new plane or buy another zagi.

In other words the power package is not easily transferred to another plane like a glow engine. The gearbox-prop-battery combination that worked great in the zagi will very likely fly another similar sized plane with dismal results.

I still think that to get good performance from electrics one must spend big bucks for the high tech stuff. Motors and batteries especially. Electrics are still very marginal in performance compared to glow, particularly when power to weight is concerned. Electrics are terrible when you consider the Horsepower per dollar spent! If you hope to minimize the handicaps inherent with electrics you must spend the money.

Reasonable performance can be achieved through aggresive weight control (plane designed for electrics), proper equipment (expensive) and proper matching of components (complex).

Buy a zagi if that will be your sole interest in electrics, most of the variables have been figured out for you.

Plan on spending over $500.00 if you want components that will easily transfer to other planes.

mumblety-peg

My Feedback: (3)

The power package for the Zagi can be used in any speed 400 sized plane. Nothing special about it at all. Just an $8.00 motor and ~$35.00 controller. But it's suited for smaller planes. And I'd consider the motor a throw-away at 8 bux.

As to special purpose ships designed for eflight... you are right. But you'd be just as correct saying that my glow extra 300 is special designed for the vibration and oil mess of a glow engine.

2fast... you are talking about ancient history when u equate eflight to high dollar equipment. But, as with all things high tech, ancient history is 3 to 5 months ago.

In the past year brushless motors have come way down in cost. It started with the Jeti motors. But several inexpensive motor sources are around now. Yes, still more expensive than glow up front. But, unless u land like me , an airframe can last just about forever. No vibration to shake the airfram apart. No oil to wilt the balsa.

However, if u think a 40 size plane is small then electric can be a hassal. Also, many times flight times > 10 mins are hard to reach. That's why I fly both glow and electric. But I'll tell ya, when we reach 4 amp/hours in a sub c cell I'll sell my 4 stroke.

mumblety-peg

My Feedback: (3)

Of course, if u wanted to spend the big bucks. $500 should just about buy the power system for this twin. Absoluutly the coolest hover I've seen.

http://www.espritmodel.com/video/dia...twin_hover.wmv

049flyer

My Feedback: (18)

Dear mumblety-peg:

You may be right, I could be slightly behind the times as I sold all of my electric stuff about 10 months ago. However I will tell you this: I would have to see a 10 fold increase in performance of electrics and a corresponding decrease in price for me to feel compelled to try it again.

Prices have come down but are still high. What is the price of a good speed 400 brushless motor and controller these days anyway? And how does that compare to the cost of a comparable glow engine like a norvel 1/2a? Don't forget the SR batteries!

Electrics are interesting and fun to experiment with. A few even perform with some authority for a short time. But they will never be "mainstream" untill performance improves dramatically, prices approach that of glow engines and the power packages are rendered less complex. Progress is being made but in very small steps.

In short my experience has been: Not worth my time or money.

Just my opinion of course.

And to you electric guys out there My hat is off to you! We need you to keep the electric end of the hobby moving in the right direction! Someday they may surpass glow!

mumblety-peg

My Feedback: (3)

Stay away from SR batteries unless u have money to burn. The ezone had a really hot discussion on them a ways back. Way over priced.

Brushless 400 sized motors are still expensive. About $80 for the motor and the same for the fontroller. But 400 sized brushless are far from the sweet spot in electric. The 05 size is really very affordable. An MM for $50 is a very nice power source. I think of models that size the same way I think of 40 size glow engines. Namely a real bargin. Not all combos work. If u want to fly pattern for 15 mins on a charge I think u are out of luck. But a slower plane, such as the E3D or any of the dozen of so copies out on the market will yield 8 to 9 mins or flight time on a ten cell pack.

You may be right about complexity. I have a bit of a background in enginering. So I may just tend to over simplfy it. But u don't need to understand this stuff to make it work. You just need to know what works. Problem is that in many areas it's hard to find electric fliers to ask what works.

This time last year I'd just about givin up on electric for the same reasons u mention. But things have changed a lot since then. And continue to change. I'd stopped flying speed 400 planes because of the short flight times. But just this summer, batteries made a quantem leap in energy density. The 2/3 size aa cells are now packing 1100 mah in. Compared to the 500 to 600 of the older Nicads. This brings speed 400 pylon into the plus 5 min time range. With speeds aproaching 100 mph, 5 mins is plenty for me.

My CP2400s are looking to be old hat with the new 3300 mah Nimh cells looking so good.

And my 800 AR have been replaced by CP1300s. Which have been surpased by 1700mah NiMh cells.

But, when I have the time and energy to clean the mess, nothing beats the amazing power of my 91 FS. I just don't always have the time for clean up and set up.

BTW, did u check out the twin hover video? I wonder how long it takes to dump the cells in a hover. It's still an amazing sight though.

Matt Kirsch

My Feedback: (21)

2fast,

I'm sorry your experience with electrics was dismal. Knowing what I know now about electrics, I can see that your choice of power system was almost completely wrong. Hindsight is always 20/20...

Nowadays, there are inexpensive power combinations that would fly that airplane for 10+ minutes. Even back then, I believe a suitable power system could have been easily assembled, for less than you spent on the whole works.

As you're probably woefully aware, 6 cells is not enough for anything larger or heavier than a GWS park flier. You see, Volts and Amps are what fly the airplane, not the physical size of the motor. It's a concept that many glow fliers can't get their mind wrapped around. They're thinking that if the airplane doesn't have enough power, you put a larger engine on it. That ball of copper wire and magnets at the front of the airplane is NOT the engine. On a glow plane, the engine is a power source. On an electric, the motor is a power SINK.

On an electric plane, the BATTERY is what generates the power, not the motor. If you need more power, you add cells to the battery. The battery serves a dual purpose: It's the fuel tank. It's the "displacement" of the "engine." Even though people describe their power systems starting with the motor, the motor is the LAST thing you choose when powering an E-plane.

With the power system you had, you probably would've been happy had you simply removed three or four cells from one of your packs, and added them to one of the other packs. You'd see an instant 50% performance boost and since you could now throttle back, flight times would be increased. Unfortunately, you probably would've gotten hit by the "Seven Cell Trap," that is, most chargers of the day could only charge up to 7 cells from a 12V power source. Nowadays, you can get a charger that will do up to 16 cells for less than $40.

049flyer

My Feedback: (18)

I started out on 6 cells for the Lazy Bee but soon ended up with 7. Performance improved but still WAY below that of glow. I also had a Master Airscrew gearbox. I selected components based on a computer progaram named "Electricalc" (I think that is right).

Anyway I still maintain that Eflight is much more critical than glow. One must be very selective in choosing motors, batteries, gear ratios, props and planes. It's still not a bolt in and fly affair like glow is.

Because Eflight is so sensitive, the best way to extract the most performance is to purchase the best equipment. The difference in power and power handling capacity between a $8.00 can motor and a $100.00 brushless with $100.00 controller is astounding.

If you guys still disagree with me, I'm OK with that. However I have been modeling for over 35 years and gave electrics "the old college try" with marginal results for the MONEY I SPENT.

Had I spent more for brushless motors, speed controls and battery packs I probably would have had greater success.

The subject of this thread concerns the cost of Eflight. I still believe that if the averag glow flyer wants to give it a try and be HAPPY he should be prepared to spend serious coin on the good stuff. Can motors and typical car battery packs aren't goin to cut it!

I just looked in the latest magazine and a brushless 400 sized motor is close to $100.00 and the controller close to $100.00 as well. Gearboxes run between $40 and $75. A good charger is between $60 and $125. Batteries who knows.

You add it up and it's not cheap!

mumblety-peg

My Feedback: (3)

>

I agree that more variables exist. Namely cell count, cell size and type and GB ratio. When first beginning in eflight it's best to chose a combo known to work. After some time, the choices begin to make sense. Two examples of well known working combos would be the Zagi and the E3D. Speed 400 Pylon models are also simple to outfit.

>

I agree in reference to the power difference between brushless and brushed. But a brushed motor is perfectly capable of flying in an acceptable manner. Comparing a brushless to a can is unfair anyway. A cobalt to a brushless would be more correct. The Astroflight motors are fair priced and run forever with minor upkeep. You'll see perhaps a %10 to &15 difference in motor efficiency between a cobalt and a brushless.


I think, had u started with a better motor, (really anything other than a can motor) you would have been fairly happy with the outcome. U don't need big money to fly an electric Bee.

Matt Kirsch

My Feedback: (21)

Like I said, your problem was not with the motor, but with your choice to use typical 6 and 7-cell car battery packs! If you had combined those packs into a 10, 9 or even an 8-cell pack, you would be singing a different tune right now. Reasonably phenomenal performance can be had in a low-cost setup. You don't need expensive brushless motors and controllers.

If you had spent the extra money on a brushless setup, you'd be even more miserable now, guaranteed. A brushless motor would've only been a slight improvement over what you had. The plane would've still flown like crap, and you'd have been out $300 more...

It ain't about how much money you throw at the technology, my friend.

When figuring the cost of glow vs. electric, keep in mind that you also have to figure in the cost of fuel over the life of the airplane, plus the cost of a glow driver and fuel pump.

mpj220

No longer support RCU

bmwbob

My Feedback: (1)

I have set up 4 planes now ( 2 Hangar 9 Aspire Ep's, one Omega 1.8, and one FVk Impulse 2 LMR ) with Trinity 19 turn Chameleon Pro R/C car motors ( $35 from Tower ) running through MPJ 3.8:1 planetary gearboxes ( $24 from Hobby Lobby and Aircraft World )
using a range of ESC's, and 6 to 8 cells.
Performance in every case has been GREAT, and the cost, MOST reasonable.
Of course, these are all basically electrically- boosted gliders. For the aerobatics types, the E3D serves as the standard of comparison with a similar power setup.
I now have brushless setups, which I've worked my way up to.
Battery cost can be held down SUBSTANTIALLY by making your own packs from cells and supplies purchased from either Robotic Power Solutions, or Dynamo Electrics.
A computer program like Motocalc or Electricalc is helpful when prospecting for a good setup. The Astroflight Whattmeter is a REALLY handy tool for testing the results of your efforts, when used in conjunction with a tachometer.
IMO, if you want the best performance from your batteries, you really should consider one of the cycling type chargers, which can charge, discharge, and give you a readout of the capacity of your batteries.
The Dymond Turbo, and the charger from FMA ( actually made by Simprop) are both good values. I use the Robbe Infinity 2 Pro, but that's more $$$, and I'm not sure it's really any better.
YES. There are startup costs to electric, but after that, only the inevitable desire for more/bigger/better, and/or a propensity for crashing drives the costs!
Bob Cowgill
Cocoa, Florida
E-mail:[email protected]

049flyer

My Feedback: (18)

Okay Okay mumblety-peg:

I give up! You and your Eflying buds are too much for me. So let me see if I have it straight for the record:

Electrics have progressed to the point where equal or better performance is easily obtainable at a cost on par or less than glow.

Furthermore you can now fly around full throttle, do as much aerobatics and 3d that you want for 10 minutes or so just like the glow guys.

You can do all of this with $8.00 motors, $20.00 speed controls, and $10.00 battery packs. Just "bolt and go" in just about any plane of your choice and get ready for some "eye popin" performance!

It's clear that 95% of the rest of us just don't understand how easy and inexpensive it really is.

There I said it and I feel much better. I hope you guys are happy now.

mpj220

No longer support RCU

mumblety-peg

My Feedback: (3)

2Fast-

Ok.... OK... not *all* is great in eflight land. The truth is somewehre between your first post and this last post. I guess I persisted becasue your experience was not representaive of eflight the way it is today.

Some things work and some don't. A lot depends on the expectations of the pilot. And the type of plane u like to fly. The Bee should bee (sorry) a good e-plane. Here's my personal experience.

-I think a 40 size plane is the biggist size I'd consider flying electric. And then even that can be a bit of a pain. I flew an EZ sport wiht 20 cells and an Aveox motor. Flew well. But I've since converted to glo because the fligh times were a little short. Sub ten mins. But also because the walk to the pit area at my club is is too long. About 1/4 mile. You think glo fuel can get heavy? Try lugging a charger battery. BTW, I read a comparison between glow fuel and eflight batts for a plane this size. Seems like I'd need two years of flight on the packs to break even

Up to about 4 ft wing span can work very well. I flew an alliance foamy most of the winter. Flight times were about ten minutes or so. The plane had good speed and plenty of thrust. I finally broke it cause I didn't want to wait for a motor repair. Yes, it was an expensive brushless. But it didn't have to be. I purchased several Aveox motors a few years back when no cheaper alternatives existed. Aveox is so good with repairs that I have no reason to buy cheaper products. Worst case, I totaly destroy a motor then I can buy a new one for %60 of retail. Anyway, starting a glow motor in the snow is, for me, out of the question.

Aerobatic park flyers in the 3 ft span work well. I flew a X-250 that was a thing of beauty. Inverted for the whole fligh if u can handle it. As many consecutive loops as u want. Flight times were around 6 mins. But the new cells should give u 10. Havn't tried the myself yet.

-Small... (sub 200 sq inch) pylon planes can be a riot. A $10 motor and a 30 dollar bat -pack can buy u six mins of nearly 100mph fun.
I've had a few. Lost a few also. But mostly cause of my poor building skills.

Small jets are unique to eflight. But flight times are short. I tried it and decided id wait till batteries improve.

One area that eflight excels in is the E3d type of plane. Thats cause u can gear a motor to spin a hugh prop. They are a bit fragile though. So I may hold off on that E3D till my landings are better. I've only started landing planes wiht wheels this year.

Hotliners are high speed gliders. I have one now that needs some major repairs. Probably a winter project. But it was fun. Looked like it as falling up when I launched it. Flight times were around 10 mins. But I had to manage the throttle. And landing it is too much for me at my smallish field.

So some things work and some don't. I tried not to paint too rosy a picture. But, darn it, that Bee should have flown OK. I bet it WAS those cheap car packs.


Did u ever view the E3d video?

mumblety-peg

My Feedback: (3)

I forgot to mention... eflight will make your hair thicker and your toe nails self clipping

049flyer

My Feedback: (18)

Hey guys I'm on your side now! I already have thick hair although I hate to clip my toe nails.

I'm just tryin to get you guys to agree on the original thread. How much to get started in Eflight.

You can get started in RC with $150.00 or less using a 2 channel radio and a 1/2a plane but few of us would recommend that to a beginner because he would soon outgrow most of the equipment.

I think the same can be said of Electric. Sure you CAN get started for not much cash if you stick to low dollar stuff or KNOWN proven combinations of equipement i.e. zagi. But is this a fair answer for the original poster of the thread? I believe every one of you guys has brushless or cobalt motors and the reason for that I think is fbetter performance. Most if not all of you have Whattmeters and sophiticated chargers right?

To a new Electric guy. I would suggest a good cobalt motor as some of you have suggested, and a speed control of ample capacity and three battery packs as mentioned by some one else. But to be able to really learn what works and what doesn't the new guy will also need a computer program right? How about a Whattmeter?

So I put it to the Eflight experts How much $$$ for a guy new to electrics to have a satisfactory experience with Electrics. And remember I think the original poster was flying other IC aircraft so the performance expectations will be high (I assume).

I'll bet most of you Eflight experts have had experiences similar to mine with the Bee when you first started out. But now you have the stuff that works.

So what should we buy and how much cash do we need to bring to the LHS?

By the way. All of you guys are the coolest for putting up with me. It's been fun, and I'm not even the guy that started this thread!

Thanks.

I'll be watching for your answer. Maybe I'll try it again, the Bee is still hanging from the ceiling! But I'm frugal so help me out OK.